Good Morning, Mimi...

I hope all went well last night. I was really concerned about you situation with H and your Son.

Yesterday was Wednesday (not Friday), seems like today should be Saturday, doesn't it?

I can't share right now about that. I am in turmoil over the whole thing...really thrown for a huge loop.

I don't know what to do. I slept hardly any at all last night, laying in bed thinking about this whole thing.

Man....like gets so complicated.

Georgia

GG, she has gone cold because you are making trouble in paradise. You are threatening her affair, which is a good thing. This is a very normal initial reaction to exposure. Exposure helps bring the affair to an end by making things very uncomfortable.

Her anger won't destroy your marriage, but the affair WILL. Just hang in there; you are doing the right things.

Melody & FH - Thanks for the affirmation. Yes, I know that the reaction I'm getting is what I should expect. I certainly don't regret having exposed, wish I had done it sooner.

I'm still holding to the same verbiage espoused by SH in our session. That seems to work very well.

Georgia

Hi Georgia:

I'm glad you were able to grasp my confusion.

You helped out a lot yesterday. I was able to relax last night and not worry about the issues with my H and sons. It's the same old thing as you well understand. I have to remember TIME AND PATIENCE. I want to fix things right away. This RECOVERY will take time.

I concentrated on cooking the Thanksgiving Dinner and am able to focus on the blessing of us ALL being able to sit down at the same table. H has been very complimentary of my food. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It's the DOMESTIC TRANQUILITY which I always ACE.

Yep, like MEL says your WW is now reacting to the burst in her A bubble. Also, in my experience the anger over the exposure fits with her foggy justification of the A, making you the bad guy. You are doing well with YOUR PLAN, though, giving her lots of positive memories of this time which won't be forgotten by any of you.

Don't forget to share about yesterday as soon as you can. The DEVIL, those evil forces, wants you to keep it hidden. I know. BEEN THERE-DONE THAT. I'm a zillion steps ahead of you, REMEMBER!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Happy Thanksgiving!!

<small>[ November 25, 2004, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Dear Georgia,

I have been following your posts, and I don't post to you because you have been getting a lot of the best kind of support.

I just wanted to say not to give up hope, even though you may be feeling weak right now.

My husband's affairs were EA's, and could be described as "lightweight" compared to your wife's year-long "friendship", although each attachment lasted more than 6 months. The important thing is that the effect they had on our marriage was just as devastating as if they had actually been physical, perhaps even more so, because he could always, in his eyes, legitimately recoil from me and claim that I was "controlling" because I objected to his perfectly "harmless" friendship. He was as deep in the fog as if he were having a passionate sexual affair, the sexual attraction was there, but he was "being responsible about it". That didn't stop him from expressing all those foggy thoughts "I can't imagine my life without you in it....I'm only staying with her for the sake of the children...my wife is a very sick person (because I exposed to OW2), etc. etc. etc.

Exposure brought torrents of anger out of him directed towards me, and yes, he stopped sleeping with me. It was definitely his way of punishing me. During EA1, he didn't stop sleeping with me. After exposure of EA2 (I was a lot angrier over EA2 also) he stopped sleeping with me for about two weeks. Then we "patched things up" and he came back to the marital bed. We continued to struggle through, though - and there were occasions when I chose to sleep away from him after a row. I had found MB by this time and was receiving some very detailed coaching from wonderful people here, who helped me get through this period emotionally, and also tactically advised me, helping me decipher his words and actions. Your W sounds so much like my H. Although that was the most crisis-ridden period in terms of raw emotion, more was to come. EA2 ended, but H had a lot more work to do in IC, and our 3rd attempt at MC ended in disaster - H stormed out of the first session, leaving me to drive myself home. At that point, I appealed to one of H's closest friends for help. Unbeknowst to me, this friend turned out to be a malign influence on our marriage as well, but by writing to him, although I felt I had betrayed my H's trust, I also flushed him out from under our bed. Effectively I exposed him as well as being a negative, meddling influence in our marriage. The result was that my H did not sleep with me for three months.

At the beginning of this period, I was terribly hurt and shocked by the trauma of what our marriage had become. After all, my H had not had a physical affair - he had "only" had two intense EA's in a row - basically a mid-life-crisis. The result of these EAs was the total destruction of all of his good will towards me. I became the bad guy who was trying to stop him from having what he was entitled to have. Any expression of hurt on my part was answered with "but what about MY feelings?" The only thing that helped me make sense out of the things he was saying and the way he was behaving was MB. I needed an interpreter to understand what had become of my H, and that is where MB helped me to save my M. MB helped me to alter the way I reacted to him in the fog. He was like a sick man suffering from delusions. He had moments of lucidity when the old "him" would reappear, almost as if he didn't understand how he had got to this point. The most painful moment for me was having our six-year old son sit on my lap and sob "I want my old Daddy back" after H had exploded at me with our son in my arms, screaming that it was all my fault that he had to have secret relationships behind my back, and then slammed out the door. Even our six-year old knew there was something wrong with Daddy, and not with me.

During the period when we slept apart, I had a lot of time to think, and although it hurt initially, eventually, I believe it helped me become stronger. I was unwilling to compromise by that time and he eventually got the message that staying away from our bed was not a lever that would get him what he wanted. What began as a way of punishing me became a punishment for him, and one that he had inflicted on himself. At one point, he tried to come back to our bed without an apology, or any word to me. I sent him away, and he was very angry about that. By that time, I was a lot clearer about what I wanted. I did not want to take the easy way out.

We did agree to resume sleeping together at Christmas that year. It sounds funny now, but we had a houseguest and he needed the guest bed. However, in the run-up to Christmas, my sons had asked me to make a Christmas list for them. I decided I wasn't likely to get any presents from H anyway, so I might as well put down all the things I wanted, so I made a LOOONG list. Come Christmas Eve, my H started bringing presents down to put under the tree and most of them had my name on them. He insisted that I open them, and it turned out that he had bought me every last thing I had put on my Christmas list. Some would see this as him buying his way back into my heart, but I took it as his apology - my H isn't known for spending a lot of money! I said he better come back upstairs since our guest needed the guest bed and he breathed a sigh of relief. A couple of months later, we had another disastrous attempt at MC, however, H continued in IC until just a few months ago. Our recovery has been an uphill struggle, and not all by the MB book - I'm sure it would have been faster had we been able to follow the MB "canon", but I am working towards that.

Sometimes I do still feel down about our R, but I also see a lot of good in our R, and we are still together and trying.

I guess my point is I am trying to give you hope to continue, even though it looks really bleak right now. You could go through a lot more difficult times, and only you can tell when you have had enough. But an EA can devastate a marriage as much as a physical one, sometimes more, because the WS doesn't see themselves as a WS, but more or less the "victim" of a controlling spouse. What I'm really trying to say is you're on a long-haul flight with lots of unexpected turbulence, but there is still a chance for a safe landing at the end of it.

Take care,
LIR

Thanks, LIR, that meant a lot to me.

I'm not going to spend much time here now, but I've decided I will post what is going on later.

The deepest temptation of my life. More later.

GG,
Your current situation is not as untenable as it may seem to you right now. If anything, however, I personally believe that your progress is being hindered by your own best instincts to be loving, kind and understanding.

The point of my last post was that SH seemed to give you a delivery method from which to attack the problem at hand, but not as an excuse to be more tolerant of your WW’s activity. From what I read in your post, what he advised was that you to change the direction of your approach to your WW by giving you a different reason to sell her to her as your motivation for what you’re still demanding she do. In my opinion, what he is suggesting is that you need to leave her with a positive message if Plan B needs to be implemented. The message being the classic Plan B message that all are advised to use when going this route. You know the one, “the I have to do this because of the pain I’m in and to save the last vestiges of my love for you…” message?

If it were me, (and I once again admit to being some what aggressive in my approach) I would tell my WW that you’ve given the matter some consideration and in that she finds you so objectionable and that she contends this to have been the case for your entire marriage together, (is this not what she claimed after your last intimate activity together) that you now agree and understand that it’s for the best that she continue to sleep in another room rather then suffer your presence in the bed you two used to share. In other words, make her actions your idea as well as hers. Take ownership for her action away from her and thus steal her weapon from her!

Will this get her back in your bed? Who can say but once she perceives no further profit to herself in sleeping alone I would bet she might find an excuse to once again rejoin you and enjoy the same comfort in being together with you that you find in being with her.

But I would go even further. I would tell her that the sudden disclosure of the fact that she has held you in such contempt for all these years is the most painful and hurtful disclosure that has ever been made to you. Then I would apologize for having been so insensitive for so long as to not to realize this and tell her that your only excuse is the great love and joy that you’ve taken in being with her all this time has prevented you from ever realizing how much pain she must have been in to have had to be with you.

I would then finish this discourse with an apology and the simple assertion that you will do anything she wishes to help her end this problem. That all she need do is ask! If she decides to leave then tell her that you will no longer try to stop her or convince her to stay however, that she must please understand that the one thing that you can’t do, that you will never do, is accept a marriage in which you have to share your wife with another man.

I would tell her that to do so would be for you to go against your belief in God, yourself self and in everything that hold valuable in your life. I would then ask her to forgive you for this and respectfully request that until she decides what she intends to do or where she intends to go, that she please, in spite of how she feels about you the man, show some respect for you as the father of her children and to please refrain from causing you any more pain then she already has by understanding why you can’t bear to have her be in contact with the OM while she lives under the same roof as you.

GG, any assertions with these remarks does nothing other then to acknowledge her own words to you and to verbally define the situation as it currently is any way. She has said what she said and threatened what she has threatened and has moved into another place away from you already. By making the remarks I suggest, all you will be doing is acknowledging the situation and respectfully informing her of your intention to be do what you will have to do anyway while re-affirming that you’re requesting no contact for the present.

What might this do? Well, it just might begin to make her see that she is walking down a road she doesn’t want to be on! This woman is not leaving and never intended to do so. Oh she may have wanted to in her anger but in reality, no! So why not give her a little something to think about?

Coach

Good evening to all....

First, let me say to Lady in Red that I am very sorry to hear of the deep hurt your WH has put you through. Us MLC folks can, indeed, do crazy things. Why do folks in their mid to late 40's go crazy? Sounds like we've got a lot of common themes in what we've had to endure. Thanks so much for following, and taking the time to post. Some of your learned experience from the separate bed issue relate to the comments from Coach. I think it is all part of when we start to realize that we can sleep, cope, and live without WS's if need be, as the absence may be easier to tolerate than the torture.

Coach - Your suggestions and insight are timely. Tonight, I just came into the office with WW, said "good-night" (with no attempt for a kiss), and then went to the b/r and shut the door. A few minutes later, she appeared, went to take a shower. When she came out, she came over to me, told me goodnight, kissed me, and told me she loved me. Then she left. I gave her no reason to believe that I wanted her back in bed. And,you know, I'm not really sure I do at this point. I am beginning to think that if I have been that despicable, perhaps she doesn't need to be tortured every night by having to sleep in the same bed. So coach, I think I am beginning to put into practice your eloquently placed words.

And yes, the change in philosophy from the SH session is one of "root cause", not acceptability. It is due to my pain that I must ask for her to respect the sanctity of our home and not contact OM, etc. This is firmly in place, I will continue to review the rest of your excellent post for ways to better implement.

Re: her wanting to leave or not. I think that in her mind, life with OM would be a vacation. The bad thing about vacations is that they come to an end. Then the laundry has to be done, bills have to be paid, and work has to be tended to. From her "how would I support myself?" diatribe, I think she realizes that life with OM is a fantasy, not a reality. However, I am doing absolutely nothing to make her think that she can't go if that is what she wants. She will just have to go w/o my help. She's told me that she is surprised at how quickly I've agreed for her to leave her home.

Georgia

<small>[ November 26, 2004, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

<small>[ November 28, 2004, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Dear GG,

Again, I'm sorry for the pain you are going through - reading your post brings back memories of us saying goodnight to each other and going to separate beds - painful, I know.

I don't really have anything to add as I know you are getting the best support you could in SH, your other coaches here, and your own wonderful kids.

Just one thing, though, spoken from experience - remember that not only is your wife being tempted and tested, but YOU are being tempted and tested, as well. As a Christian, I believe that we are all tested and tempted, and although it looks like your wife is the one on the firing line right now, actually, it is you, too - a BS has more reason than anyone to feel justified in seeking comfort and reaffirmation of oneself elsewhere, especially at a time like this. If, like me, you believe that there is something out there that truly hates marriage, temptation is bound to come your way, as you are weak and vulnerable right now, and evil can play on your sadness.

All I can say is DON'T. Don't even think about it. IF you stray, you know that God will love and forgive you, but I can tell you, you will wreak so much damage in your life you cannot even calculate the impact it will have on everyone around you. Your children might be understanding but they will be bitterly disappointed in you. And EVERYTHING you do right now has an impact on your wife, even though you may not think so. All she needs is one tiny little bit of transgression on your part and you are SUNK. You will have given her all the reason she needs to walk out that door without a backward glance and hating you all the way. In one of our worst moments - on the day I exposed EA2, H and I ended up getting physical in the kitchen - we were both at flashpoint and he was goading me - it would take too long to explain, but we ended up wrestling with each other, then he broke away and held me away from him. In the moment, I could have chosen not to, but what did I do? Knowing what I was doing, I drew back my fist and punched him right in the eye. It was not really self-defense because there was no longer a struggle. Yes, I felt threatened, yes I was upset, yes he had "attacked me first", so yes, there were mitigating circumstances. BUT - the point is - I did it because I WANTED to hurt him and he was there waiting for it. My diamond ring cut a gash over his eyebrow that started to bleed. I was amazed I had done that to him, but I can't say it didn't actually feel good to "get my own back". He was so shocked and horrified he sprang to his feet, called me a name and started to leave. Our six-year old came downstairs at that point to investigate. H turned to YS and said "Look what your mother did to me!" YS turned to me and said "You shouldn't have done that, Mummy." I was very calm and said "I know, and I'm sorry." I wasn't crying or upset. I just waited for him to leave, then sat down to talk with YS. I wrote my H a letter of apology for him to find when he came in. We slept apart that night. Yes, that was one of the low points.

The point is - temptation - temptation does not just take the form of sexual attraction - it can be temptation to revenge, temptation to anger, temptation to act outside the realm of what you know to be right. Common opinion would say to me "go for it - and if you catch him at it again, next time it will be the frying pan" - but that horrible little incident didn't earn me any points. It crippled our recovery because in his already twisted mind, it reinforced his ideas of me - he didn't see me as being justified in my anger - he used it as evidence against me.

YOU are under the spotlight here, too, in other words. And anything you do that is less than what you believe to be the best of yourself, your WS will seize on as "proof" of why are no longer the man for her. There is no room for forgiveness in a WS mind. It's not just all about her. It's actually all about you, too - unfair as that might FEEL right now.

Having said all that, none of us are perfect and we are all driven by this wretched roller-coaster to do things we wouldn't dream of normally doing. That's part of the ride and part of the damage that has to be cleaned up afterwards.

H and I are still working on our R. His MLC showed up the problems that were always there in our R, from the beginning. That we are still together and working is good. Marriage is a work in progress.

Hang in there!
LIR

Good Morning, LIR -

Sounds like you and your H have indeed been through some difficult times. We've gotten any more physical than the "Georgia Tea Party" (I don't know how long you've been following, we dumped tea on each other one night). WW tells me she is afraid of me,but I think that is again, her trying to remove so of her guilt as I've never gotten even close to consider hurting her.

Your comments about temptation are timely. I've been able to dispense counsel with ease to others about what they should or shouldn't do...but this is really the first time I've had to turn such evaluation so serously introspectively. Yet, I know that what is right vs. wrong doesn't change with our circumstances.

Thanks for telling me your story. I'll refer back to it more later.

Georgia

Georgia:

I have almost bared my soul here to you. Now you are turning the tables here on me. Could you share in general about your TEMPTATION? You did ask me to hang on in here with you. It will be hard if you start keeping secrets. That will not allow you to receive the full value of this forum. Been there-done that.

I guess you know to make sure to share all information with Steve Harley.

What's going on, my friend?

<small>[ November 26, 2004, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi -

There will be no secrets. (I had a feeling you'd say that). Yes, SH will be told everything.

I'll be back later, taking WW to dinner.

Georgia

<small>[ November 26, 2004, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Mimi (and anyone else who cares to jump in) -

Yes, indeed you have shared a lot with me, I'm honored that you've seen fit to do so. I hope that my trust has been merited in the ways yours has been to me. There is no intention to turn the tables on you (or keep secrets from you), I'm concerned about family members that may be following along on this public forum. I've trusted your advice, and more than once you've pulled me out of the fire when I was about to do the wrong thing, or in a panic because I couldn't think clearly.

Okay, in general. I called one of WW's doctors to discuss some of her med stuff that I know she'll never mention because she's not even cognziant that it's happening to her. I got a PA who, to make a very long story very short (I can fill in detais if you want), told me how nice it was to meet a man trying so hard to help his W rather than just leaving her. Then, it was that she (PA) would like to meet me if this doesn't work out. Then, after about 2 hours of conversation, she offers (and I take) her cell # and pager number to call her whenever I need someone to talk to. She even suggested that my other needs probably aren't being met right now.

There's more...but suffice it to say...I'm tempted. She's articulate, open, and kind. I've not heard a female voice talking to me like that in a long, long time...and I loved it. Not something I'm really proud of....I know all the right answers, but this is it.

Can you tell some approx times you may be on the board so we can talk about this, and other issues going on with WW right now? I'd like for this to be a convo (like we had Wednesday) rather than a days long posting session.

Your friend, too-

Georgia

P.S. - When we get through this one..there is some issues from your post on the "Conflict Avoiders" thread last Wednesday that we need to discuss. I noticed, I've just not said anything.

<small>[ November 27, 2004, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Dear Georgia,

This is exactly why you need to be on this forum. This forum should help provide you the support you need to get through this, so that you don't fall into seeking it in inappropriate places.

Your needs are not being met and yes, you are very vulnerable. That doesn't give you the right to go looking for them anywhere else. I'm not saying that unkindly and I know you already know that. I don't mean my "internet" voice to sound harsh here. This might also give you some insight into the kind of temptation your wife is experiencing - your wife's friendly little friendship has grown and grown and is now spiraling out of control. You see, there but for the grace of God go I.

Something to think about - what kind of woman makes an open play for a man who she clearly sees is desperately trying to save his marriage? What kind of woman offers her phone number to a man whose marriage is in trouble? A woman who doesn't care whether his marriage survives or not and is rather hoping it won't. You open yourself up to "talking about your problems" with this woman, and she will finish your marriage off for you, have no doubt about that. She knows what she is doing - going for a vulnerable man, a good man - because she knows what she wants, and she knows how to get it. Ever heard the expression "led by the nose"? I suspect you want to stay in control of the situation you are now in, as best you can. You can only do that by being master of yourself. Opening up and confiding in this person will take even that away from you.

I told my H, and I try to remind myself, too - "When the Devil makes a play for you, he throws something in your path that looks like everything you ever wanted, or everything you need right now. Only trouble is, you will have to betray all the principles you hold dear in order to get it."

What I found helped me, helps me the most, is starting my day with my Bible. I use a Bible-reading scheme - any one will do that you feel comfortable with. For me, it is Bible Alive, because it gives me the Mass readings for the day and a commentary, but there are others. Choose one, and then start your day with that. It will help keep you focused. I also used the English Book of Common Prayer - I think the Episcopal church has something like it. It gives you three Psalms to read every morning, and three at night. These I found most helpful, because the Psalms are so personal and are a direct conversation with God. So often they ended up expressing my most turbulent thoughts - they also showed me God's promise, and gave me confidence and comfort to go on.

Hang in there.
LIR

<small>[ November 27, 2004, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

GG, the PA (Physician's Assistant) is crossing the line of professionalism.

That you are "vulnerable" is a given. That she might be predisposed to "helping," "nursing," "doctoring," etc. is normal for someone in the medical field. However, you DO NOT get involved with patients. End of discussion.

For you the problem is clear. Satan is subtly trying to convince you that "God didn't really mean what He said."

"Thou shalt NOT commit adultery."

No "suggestion." No "if it feels good, do it."

No "wiggle room."

GG, you are not the first to have such thoughts. The deep emotional pain you are feeling is normal, as are such thoughts of "relief" from the pain. But as with many things that seem "nice" on the surface, underneath is a snarling vicious animal just waiting for you to "take the bait."

"There is no temptation that you will face that is not common to man." But God provides the way to face those temptations and overcome. That way is to simply obey God's commands no matter how we might be feeling at any given time.

Loneliness, fear, uncertainty, pain, emotions...

Step back from the quicksand and take the longer route around the problem.

God bless.

<small>[ November 27, 2004, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Georgia Guy:
Then, after about 2 hours of conversation, she offers (and I take) her cell # and pager number to call her whenever I need someone to talk to. She even suggested that my other needs probably aren't being met right now.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What you do NOT need is more chaos and emotionally charged female companionship.

What you do NOT need right now is any woman who offers herself fast and easy. Think about this... what sort of woman says "your other needs " implying physical needs to an obvious recent victim??

A parallel situation for you to think about ---> a male PA says the same words to a married woman who is seeking help with her husband's betrayal... WHAT WOULD YOU THINK OF THE PA'S OFFER IF THE GENDERS WERE REVERSED???

You'd say... "What an opportunistic slimeball!"... and, you'd be correct.

Equality of the sexes my dear.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Equality of the sexes my dear.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awwww...Pep....and I love the unequal differences. Maybe that's why I why I love the feminine form and guys do nothing for me!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Georgia:

I'm in and out on the weekends. I will be sitting at my desk at 9:00AM on Monday at least until 9:30.

I probably will respond before then though. To be honest, the PA has me brewing!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Seems like you met up with a CLEAN-UP WOMAN!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Equality of the sexes my dear.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awwww...Pep....and I love the unequal differences. Maybe that's why I why I love the feminine form and guys do nothing for me!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Equality when it comes to applying moral standards

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

.... you rascal you!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />