I just read your post to Waking Up. It was another wonderful, honest post to someone who is taking quite a while to wake up.

But I am discouraged and upset for you that your wife has had recent contact with OM. What is the story? How did you find out? What are you doing about it?

Thinking of you.

Anne - Thank you for the kind thoughts

How I know remains a mystery but suffice it to say that I learned a of ways to "check up" early on in the "game."

What I'm doing about it right now is nothing.

Not sure yet just what to do because I really believe she is "in love" with me doesn't tell me these things because she thinks it will hurt me.

So much positive has gone on, but this one area is not something I've figured out how to deal with. I think it's a "friend" thing, and not a "lover" thing, and I've not quite managed to get across the idea that I can't handle a "friendship" with the OM no matter how good our marriage is.

Oh well. More to contemplate.

God bless.

I feel for you. WHY can't our F? WS undestand how hurtful and disrespectful any contact is for US?

To me, in my M I now see that as one of my H's problems in regard to M--if he wants to do something and he thinks it is ok or right, he has a hard time giving it up or not doing it. He just rationalizes it that I am wrong, or misinformed or somehow deficient. I want him to see and FEEL that if it hurts me and it is important enough to me, that he needs to not do it, even if he doesn't agree with my reasoning or validate it logically. Just DON"T do it, b/c he can put me first and our M is a priority. I don't know if that is anything in common with your situation.

Additionally, concern about rekindling the flame despite all of our progress would cause me to insist on NC. I KNOW that at this point if I found out about contact, I would be DONE. After all the work we have put in, the good feelings etc. I would not be able to stay in the M. If and when he came to his senses, he would have some MAJOR work ahead to earn me back into his life. I actually feel strongly that God would understand and support me in that. If I put up with that again, I think I would be enabling the A.

My prayers are with you.

Anne, I understand what you are saying. Contact IS a problem. Right now I'm looking at it as my "thorn" that God CAN take away, but that He might have a reason to leave with me for a while, or perhaps permanently.

So many "thorns" have already been taken away that it is possible that God is still teaching me, and my wife, some lessons from this remaining "thorn." So I am sure of two things right now, I will continue to trust in God's guidance and knowledge and love for both of us, and I will at some point discuss it with my wife when I can do so in a way that honors God and our marriage. The "human side" of me wants to rage and accuse, but that is NOT what God would want and it would not be "helpful" to the marriage recovery. Yet, part of God's plan is that there is NO one else in our marriage other than God, so I know that another "talk" is in order.

I am fairly certain that I know what is going on. My wife is a basically caring sort of person. He calls, she "can't" just be cruel and ignore him. At the same time, she doesn't want to cause me further pain, so she tries to handle the call discreetly without telling me about it. She has not yet been able to accept that her telling me about a contact, even if she was "unable" to ignore it, shows progress to me and an honesty that has been sorely lacking in this area. Eventually she has to choose, and that too will be painful for her because, unfortunately, the affair left "two men" in her life and one must go permanently.

For me, I have to choose to patiently endure while God "does His thing" in our lives, or I have to choose to end the "contact" stress by ending our marriage. That's not a "pain free" option either, and it certainly would open the door for a renewal of their affair if we were divorced. But dealing with the aftermath of an affair is not easy, and sometimes the "human side" of us cannot deal with it any longer and THAT is why God has given adultery as the ONE valid reason in His eyes for ending a Christian marriage.

Regardless of how it goes for individual Christians, God WILL be with each of us. First and foremost IS our relationship with Him. The "thorns of life" are part and parcel of our existence here on Earth. We are not yet "glorified" and made "perfect." That, too, is off in our future sometime; tomorrow, 5 years from now, decades from now, only God knows for certain. So now we hold fast to our trust in God and to His promises. We follow the Good Shepard in obedience because He DOES love us and wants to guide us into the "right places" and provide for our security.

Yes, just like sheep, we frighten easily. It's easy to begin to run and hide. But even if we choose that emotional reaction, He will come looking for us to guide us back to safety. It's in the "meantime," when we are panic stricken and reacting to our emotions, that we can often choose to follow more dangerous paths and may be in need of further healing and recovery time to tend to our "newly inflicted" wounds.

So again I remind myself that her affair was 6 years long, deeply entangled, and it may well take 6 years or more for us to reach "fully recovered." So much has already been recovered, that I need to remind myself that our marriage was DEAD when d-day occurred and God has found us and is leading us back to safety. Once there, the healing can be completed, but I can't succumb to impatience. HE knows the way back and He knows how long it will take. It IS according to God's timing, not my timing. If it were up to me, I'd opt for an Elizabeth Montgomery type of "Bewitched" twinkle of the nose and "poof" all would be instantly better. Fantasy and Reality. Wishful thinking and Agape love. Faith, hope and love...and the greatest of these is love.

God bless.

I admire your faith and strength. I just truly worry about your W, especially if what you describe is true. We both know how long this kind of unhealthy relationship can continue when their contact, in any form, continues.

I know you are right in many ways. We cannot force our spouse to want to change. But I just wonder if continuing to accept and be patient don't sometimes backfire. Definitely talk with her, please! I know you have made much progress and you are right to take courage and comfort in that. But all is still not right with her soul if she can keep contact with OM, no matter what pressures are put upon her from him or within, KNOWING that it is: 1) wrong 2) dishonest and hurtful to you, even IF you didn't know about it.

Sometimes I just want to shake these WS's and tell them to GROW UP! It is in God's hands, but he expects us to do our part. He wants to love ourselves as much as he loves us, and that includes NOT allowing ourselves to be mistreated. I am not saying LEAVE her, just ENFORCE the boundaries of NO contact.

I really care, FH, you have helped me so much in the past. I know I am not helping you, but just felt I needed to stick up for YOU. How many thorns do you think you really need to grow??? You HAVE grown and continue to grow with God's help and your own effort. You don't need pain and maltreatment for that!

Forever,

First of all...let me offer my hearfelt apologies if you felt as though your message on JFO was not warranted. It was. Ali needs that message...and I in no way wanted you to stop posting. Forgive me if I hurt you in any way....your assitance and guidance are needed there...to help keep the "bitterness" at bay. Please come back.

You are a man of great strength and tolerance. I heard a quote the other day that has stuck with me:

"What we tolerate does not change"

When do each of us, in our desire to be godly and forgiving become unwitting enablers to ungodly behavior?

I heard a humorous tale once about a man who was trapped in a flood. The waters began to rise, and a policeman came by in a truck and urged the man to evacuate. He replied "I will be fine, God will provide for me". When the waters grew higher, a boat came by and the men aboard urged the man to get in and come with them. But he replied again "I will be fine, God will provide for me." Finally the water was so high, that the man had to climb onto his roof. A helicopter came and tried to rescue him...but he continued to say "God will provide!". When the waters engulfed him and he went to heaven, he stood before God and said "God, why did you forsake me?" and God replied "I sent you a truck, a boat and helicopter!"

We are your helicopter FH. God gives us the intelligence and the means to protect ourselves and make choices...but we don't understand what we are supposed to do. We expect him to intervene, but we don't understand what form his intervention may take. You are on this site...and there are plans that help to change the dynamics of affairs.

I'm not suggesting that you stop being forgiving or understanding....I would never advocate that. But I am suggesting that you try harder to help your wife make the hard choices she must make to remain in God's light....not by getting angry and making threats...but by confronting and setting boundaries about what is tolerable even in the eyes of God.

That may mean that you must be more proactive, more decisive and take a stand to defend fidelity in your marriage. Give your wife a reason to understand what she risks by remaining in contact with this man. Stop tolerating it. Plan A is a wonderful strategy to end affairs and show that the marriage is alive...but after too long....it harms the marriage, it harms the ability of the marriage to recover, it doesn't end affairs...it prolongs them.

You are enabling your wife to live outside of the grace of God...because you are so strong to have faith and hope that God will change this. A weaker man would have raged and postured...but a strong man can actually do as much damage if he simply "endures" this rather than confronts it.

You are David...and this is surely Goliath. You found this place...maybe there is a reason for that as well. Why not truly look at why you are here as well why you are being tested?

Starfish - I appreciate your comments, however I think you misunderstand a little. I am not "tolerating," nor have I ever tolerated, any contact. No Contact is my one firm Boundary.

Additionally, my wife has made signficant progress in ending contact and, to my knowledge, this latest contact was the first one in the last 6 months. I am also a realist in the sense that I know, even though I don't like it one bit, that over the course of the 6 years she developed an intensely entangled and intertwined affair with the OM, the OM's mother, all of his extended family, and most of the people where he works.

For years she was their "resident Nurse" and was called all the time for medical advice, among other things. That 6 years was the equivalent of 1/4th of our married life. A significant time and a significant investment of her feelings and emotions. A Class II affair is the hardest type to recover from and the tendrils take a long time to cut and heal from, especially when it was not ended on it's own prior to discovery. The "timeline" for recovery is generally this: it usually takes as long for the BS to heal and the marriage to heal as it took for the WS to get into and out of the affair.

I went into recovery knowing that it could take an "investment" of 6 years. We are 2.5 years into that timeframe now, so we still have a "ways to go."

Let me assure you that after the previous contact about 8 months ago, we had a talk where she finally understood that it's no longer "I can't" but is now "I won't" live in a marriage where he or anyone in his family is involved in any way.

"Relapses" can happen. That's why I am still vigilant, although very sporadic these days. As with any "addict" who slips, I am willing to help reinforce the boundary and to "forgive" and start again. The "limit," if you will, is when I no longer believe it's a "slip" but a "pattern" or "willfulness."

Suffice it to say that I am not "perfected yet" either. I am still working on my own needed changes, because it is a two way street in many ways.

We will have a talk about this latest "slip," and after that I will weigh the balance and see what we need to do next.

Recovery is a pain in many ways, but the hardest is "endurance" and patience, not "tolerance." I agree with you that "tolerance" is a recipe for disaster on major matters, especially matters related to the affair. It is expected, and even needed, on minor issues, like leaving the lid on the toilet seat up or putting it down after it's use.

As for the JFO thread, I think I will stay out of it. I don't have the time to research her and her husband's threads. The only comment I will make to you is that I agree that there can be no arbitrary time to heal. That wasn't my point. My point was only that after 1.5 years it seems time to START the healing process. She has erected a wall of fear (justified, in my opinion) and either needs to make changes or end the marriage because the status quo will not result in a good marriage. She CAN remain married, but they won't have much of a marriage in their isolated castles. And yes, he needs to make some major changes in himself too, from the little that I read in her posts on that thread.

Thanks again for your concern.

God bless.

Whenever I forget if only for a moment that God is my Father and that He is watching out for my daughter and me, keeping us safe...

it happens that I read one of Foreverhers' post and am reminded that I am not alone, and am filled with His perfect love.

Sometimes I think that God brings me back to MB, because He knows I will read of Him here when I need to the most.

Foreverhers humbles me and reminds me of what is good and perfect, and where to look for it.

Thank you guy, you have been at times the connection to Him for me.

Forever,

Starfish - I appreciate your comments, however I think you misunderstand a little. I am not "tolerating," nor have I ever tolerated, any contact. No Contact is my one firm Boundary.

After reading this response, I agree with you. I'm very happy that you have taken the stand that you have and that you appear to be defending a very loving boundary that is realistic about the humanity of your wife.

Additionally, my wife has made signficant progress in ending contact and, to my knowledge, this latest contact was the first one in the last 6 months. I am also a realist in the sense that I know, even though I don't like it one bit, that over the course of the 6 years she developed an intensely entangled and intertwined affair with the OM, the OM's mother, all of his extended family, and most of the people where he works.

Yes, long entangled affairs pose a special challenge. Entrenched affairs have histories similar to marriages...and have moved into the "attachment" phase of love that is also similar to marriage forming deep bonds.

For years she was their "resident Nurse" and was called all the time for medical advice, among other things. That 6 years was the equivalent of 1/4th of our married life. A significant time and a significant investment of her feelings and emotions. A Class II affair is the hardest type to recover from and the tendrils take a long time to cut and heal from, especially when it was not ended on it's own prior to discovery. The "timeline" for recovery is generally this: it usually takes as long for the BS to heal and the marriage to heal as it took for the WS to get into and out of the affair.

I'm not sure where you heard that particular timeline, but I'd like to challenge that a little. Why do you believe that recovery should match the affair term? I don't think there's any research to support that...and perhaps "expecting" this length of time...especially if you've communicated it to your wife...is a "self fulfilling prophecy". There is no rule that I know of that says recovery time matches affair time. Afterall...even a one night stand can take as long to recover from as a six month or 1 year affair.

Most marriages which survive infidelity...even those rocked by long term affairs...have a few characteristics in common. They have two people committed to changing the marriage, contact with the OP completely ends, honesty is restored to the marriage, and the things that made the marriage vulnerable in the first place are addressed. I'm not sure it's the length of the affair that is truly slowing down your recovery...but the relapses in contact and dishonesty that occur from time to time.

I went into recovery knowing that it could take an "investment" of 6 years. We are 2.5 years into that timeframe now, so we still have a "ways to go."

Again, who told you this? I did as extensive of a search as I could do, and have found nothing in any marriage source had to say to support this. Recovery time on average is two years...even long term affairs. Obviously it takes some folks longer or shorter depending on how long it takes to end contact.

Let me assure you that after the previous contact about 8 months ago, we had a talk where she finally understood that it's no longer "I can't" but is now "I won't" live in a marriage where he or anyone in his family is involved in any way.

"Relapses" can happen. That's why I am still vigilant, although very sporadic these days. As with any "addict" who slips, I am willing to help reinforce the boundary and to "forgive" and start again. The "limit," if you will, is when I no longer believe it's a "slip" but a "pattern" or "willfulness."

This seems like a healthy boundary with logical and reasonable expectations. I agree, relapses do most certainly happen. I am still a little worried though about the pattern of dishonesty though...and what happens when you say you "won't" live a certain way, but you "do".

Suffice it to say that I am not "perfected yet" either. I am still working on my own needed changes, because it is a two way street in many ways.

I know what you mean. Even BSs have work to do if the marriage is to survive and thrive.

We will have a talk about this latest "slip," and after that I will weigh the balance and see what we need to do next.

I think this is slightly more serious than a slip....only because she didn't tell you. The relapse as you say is understandable...it's really the lack of honesty that is a greater threat. Let me ask you this....why does the OM still have valid contact numbers? Seems like a good safeguard would be to change all of the numbers he has available for contact. Also, did your wife manage to send a no contact letter really making it clear that she did not want him to call her at all? If he's married, does his wife have this information about what the risk to her own family is?

Recovery is a pain in many ways, but the hardest is "endurance" and patience, not "tolerance." I agree with you that "tolerance" is a recipe for disaster on major matters, especially matters related to the affair. It is expected, and even needed, on minor issues, like leaving the lid on the toilet seat up or putting it down after it's use.

hahahahha...yes, quite true...there is certainly some tolerance that we must practice!

As for the JFO thread, I think I will stay out of it. I don't have the time to research her and her husband's threads. The only comment I will make to you is that I agree that there can be no arbitrary time to heal. That wasn't my point. My point was only that after 1.5 years it seems time to START the healing process. She has erected a wall of fear (justified, in my opinion) and either needs to make changes or end the marriage because the status quo will not result in a good marriage. She CAN remain married, but they won't have much of a marriage in their isolated castles. And yes, he needs to make some major changes in himself too, from the little that I read in her posts on that thread.

And I completely agree with you! which is why I'd really love for you to come back. It's interesting that 1.5 years is even less time than you and your wife have been "healing". Ali is resisting forgiveness, holding on to that pain, and sabotaging her marriage to some degree by keeping up that wall...right? How is that so different than the sabotaging that your wife is doing? Why is your expectation of Ali...so different from your expectations for your own marriage? Yes! It takes a long time to overcome our bad habits, destructive thinking, destructive acts, and to stay STUCK in one place.

I think it's especially important that you help Ali....because the words that you gave her are so very important for you to hear. If a year and a half is long enough for her to stop sabotaging forgiveness...perhaps it is long enough for your wife to face her demons as well.

The greatest roadblock in your recovery appears to be your wife's unwillingness to be honest about no contact. To be sure that is probably some form of protecting you, an escape from judgement or shame...but also a habit that is undermining the fabric of this recovery. I do believe that you need a firmer boundary about dishonesty even if you are willing to accept the relapses in contact.

God Bless you and keep you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure where you heard that particular timeline, but I'd like to challenge that a little. Why do you believe that recovery should match the affair term? I don't think there's any research to support that... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Starfish - Try reading Torn Asunder by Dave Carder for some answers to your questions. Also, don't confuse Class I and Class III affairs with Class II affairs. There is a big difference between all Classes and the respective recovery timeframes and work that needs to be done.

As for the rest, there is a world of difference, in my mind, in a WS who is a believer and who has repented and a nonbeliever. There is also a big difference in a BS who is a believer and one who is not, in how they can forgive and how "seventy times seven times" comes into play. Many people make the mistake of thinking that a Christian is "immune" to sin or the entanglements of sin. That isn't so. Christ's admonition to Peter "set the record straight," not from Peter's seemingly "magnanimous" few times to God's perspective regarding forgiveness of a fellow believer.

So let me put it this way regarding Ali and her husband, if they are both believers, I will take the time to read their respective posts and see if there is anything that I can offer. If they are not, then there is probably little that I can offer because even the "basic" admonition of "obey God" would be meaningless, and probably would be met with resentment and scorn, perhaps even doing more harm than simply saying nothing. If Ali, alone, is a believer, I will still try to help with advice that is based in Scripture.

So do you know if they are believers? If you do, it would be quickest if you simply told me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This seems like a healthy boundary with logical and reasonable expectations. I agree, relapses do most certainly happen. I am still a little worried though about the pattern of dishonesty though...and what happens when you say you "won't" live a certain way, but you "do".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Starfish, while I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, one could infer from your post that you would advocate a divorce for a "violation" of a boundary. Boundaries have consequences, and I stress the "plural." Loving patience and progress are not always easy, but that's one of the reasons for forgiveness.

Divorce IS a possibility and a "right" granted by God, but it is to be a "last resort." Only in the face of incalcitrant, willful, refusal to end an affair or in the case of a BS who simply isn't strong enough to "wait on the Lord," God has said that the huge sin of marital unfaithfulness IS grounds for a Christian to divorce. But it is to be the "last" choice, and not the best choice. Until I believe there is no hope for recovery, I will keep trying and trusting in God to complete the work that He has begun.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me ask you this....why does the OM still have valid contact numbers? Seems like a good safeguard would be to change all of the numbers he has available for contact. Also, did your wife manage to send a no contact letter really making it clear that she did not want him to call her at all? If he's married, does his wife have this information about what the risk to her own family is? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To answer your questions: He has the numbers because they are my wife's business numbers and even if changed (they were), they are easy to get by calling her work.

Yes, she sent a no contact letter and yes it was clear. However, you'd have to know a whole lot more about my situation (which you can research if you'd like) to understand that ending the affair was not easy. She was ready for a divorce at the time.

The OM is not married and never has been. He was a co-worker of my wife, as was his mother(He still lives with his mother).
His mother thinks that my wife was the "best thing that ever happened to her son." And in that I actually agree, but she was not "free" to be his.

Complex are the situations we are all faced with. There are no "easy" answers or solutions. Were I left to my own emotions and reasons, we probably wouldn't be talking now because I'd have been divorced long ago.

There are many lessons that God teaches, and one of them is just how patient and forgiving God is, and has been, with me. Shall I do less, or forgive less than God has forgiven me? No, I believe that "from whom much has been forgiven, much is expected." And part of what is expected is to learn, to be patient, to love even when hurt, to forgive as God has forgiven us.

Probably doesn't make a lot of sense unless someone is a born-again believer.

God bless.