Hi Lemonman --

I understand how you feel. My situation wasn't as dire as most here. I found out a year ago that my H had had a one-night stand several years ago. Doesn't sound so bad, but it was for me. I found out because the OW H's was calling our house, swearing, leaving terrible messages and my H was worried he would talk to our children or come to the house. I was out of town for work at the time, and my H called in a panic asking what he thought he should do. I told him he needed to do something that would make me confident that my children were safe or I would take them and leave in two days when I returned.

The worst thing was the OW was my children's nanny for several years -- barely 21 -- and at the time, I could tell something wasn't right and wanted to let her go, but my H insisted we needed her! She ended up staying another year, although he swears nothing else physical happened, but I remember that time vividly. I felt that something wasn't right -- that the two of them were somehow against me -- the girl would always go to my H w/questions about how our home should be run. She'd leave HIM notes about the children. To make a long story short, she stayed, I allowed myself to be convinced that it was something wrong w/me and I started counseling and anti-depressants. My difficulty in recovery has been forgiving the whole betrayal and that this hideous girl was allowed in my HOME for all that time, pretending to be a friend and taking care of my children. The physical part made me sick, but not as angry as what I saw as the bigger betrayal.

So, to answer your question, I didn't tell family and only two confidantes at work who had only met him once. Since the affair had happened all that time ago, I didn't see a need to expose, and to tell you the truth I did felt shame and embarrassment.

I wish I could be more like Melody -- I moved to the South nine years ago, just so I could have big hair like hers -- because intellectually I think she's right, but I still struggle with those feelings. Ironically, he called MY best girlfriend and told her before he even called me, because he said, "he needn't someone to talk to." She later told me she didn't want to get in the middle of it, so we never talked about it, although I needed to. To this day, we aren't as close. He also told his sister, who also has never spoken to me about it.

Clearly, we are struggling in recovery. I do feel with the silence that I was met with from my friend and his sister, that there is a sense of shame, although internally I felt exactly like ML. My H was mad at me for telling my work friends. I told him in so many words, "Too bad."

I was unlike most BS here in that I didn't want him back, I had no interest in any plan A. But I had my beautiful boys who love their dad and our life. And I faced facts: kids who grow up in single-parent homes have a more difficult time of it. I think the first long-term studies are just bringing this to light. So, I told him to quit sniveling around and that if he wanted any chance whatsoever with me, he better do something. We had already started the His Needs book, so we counseled with Steve Harley.

Dr. Harley gave me hope that our rotten relationship could change, regardless of my feelings at the time. He helped me decipher my husband's actions/words. He helped me step back and look at the situation in a less emotional way, otherwise I would have been gone. I appreciated his practical approach to things, because my feelings were simply awful or not there. So we continue to fight the good fight, until I sure it will not work. Then I will leave, but not before I've done everything I can do.

But please don't feel like you're the lone ranger here in regard to your feelings. I still have never told my family or other friends. It seemed too weird for me after all this time, and I felt that the purpose of exposure was to end the affair, which for me was a moot point. They all knew and liked the stupid nanny. I do feel embarrassed that I chose so unwisely. In looking back these signs were all over the place even before we were married. But we're here now, and I want to do my best too see if we can make it work. He certainly feels a great deal of shame and embarrassment, but also anger if I dared to tell anyone that might judge him.

To be honest, this is most I've ever written about my own situation, because my situation hasn't exactly followed the same pattern as many here, and I wasn't willing to Plan A -- I wanted him to leave.

There are those of us who don't quite fit the mold, but I still learn so much from others and feel so grateful for the compassion given here in this place where there is much pain and so much heartbreak. We will help you even if you cant'quite go down the classic MB route. There are people who think like you.
Take Care Lemonman thanks for your good questions.

Anyway, stick around LM, I'll answer any other questions you have. I'm still working on the shame/embasrrassed questions too.

Michelle

Lemonman, you do understand that MarriageBuilders does NOT think there is anything wrong with ending your marriage after adultery? Even Dr Harley has stated that he would not want to stay in his marriage if his wife had an affair. I think it is a perfectly legitimate option that many choose to take.

I certainly had no intention of saving my marriage.

Just as there is nothing wrong with deciding to end the marriage, there is also nothing wrong with trying to save it after an affair.

I had no intention of staying either lemonman. None!! Infact, I was almost relieved.

I didn't know about MB when I discovered the affair so MB did not make me decide to try again. I only found MBwhen I was having problems understanding what happened and getting past the anger.

But I do understand your feelings!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lemonman:
She has begged for forgiveness and asked for another chance (she has had those already). She will never get another chance with me, BUT she will get forgiveness as both her and I need it to "heal'.

And, you need to understand everything about the failure of your M. Your future relationships depend on your ability to adjust yourself and make self-corrective moves .

I almost feel like a pariah here.

I think I did not understand Plan A for at least a year. You don't get it yet... no big deal. Natural scientific skepticism ... expected.

I would ask that if anyone knows of any other MB that may be better suited for my beliefs in all of this would pass them along.

What ARE your beliefs? And what are you beliefs under your beliefs?

Lem, I see lots of marriages on Mb that I think don't have a snowballs chance in hell... but know what I've learned??? That I am wrong as many times as I am right!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Pep

I was going to respond with what MelodyLane said. There is nothing wrong with ending it after adultry.

I would say there is encouragement to try, but nothing that says it's wrong.

What you see here is a VERY small percentage of those affected by infidelity. Most people don't think along these lines.

What I like about MB is that IF you want to try for a better marriage with your spouse after infidelity, you have the tools to do so. But even if you don't, you'll go into your next relationship with the tools and knowledge to make it better than it may have been.

The knowledge and tools I have gained here are going to make some man VERY happy in the future <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by shellybird:
<strong>

I wish I could be more like Melody -- I moved to the South nine years ago, just so I could have big hair like hers --</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> Lemonman, you do understand that MarriageBuilders does NOT think there is anything wrong with ending your marriage after adultery? Even Dr Harley has stated that he would not want to stay in his marriage if his wife had an affair. I think it is a perfectly legitimate option that many choose to take.

I certainly had no intention of saving my marriage.

Just as there is nothing wrong with deciding to end the marriage, there is also nothing wrong with trying to save it after an affair. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, ML, I sometimes forget all of this. I guess my view is skewed becasue OBVIOUSLY this is a MB site and most people that are on here because they want to save their marriage and i clearly DON'T. If I am to stay here and contribute I know that I have to rememebr all of this. I still have a lot of problems with judging a lot of people on here for trying tp save a marriage that in a million years I never would, BUT this is all about personal growth for me and I wll learn from all of this. Thanks for your repsonses.

The pariah issue... I don't think you are a pariah... but you are stiff as hell... make a joke!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ October 29, 2004, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> The pariah issue... I don't think you are a pariah... but you are stiff as hell... make a joke!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, you have to call em like you see em, I can respect that.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

lemonman,

I didn't see this thread until a few minutes ago, so I don't have anything to add to what everyone else has said regarding your questions.

My WW has had 2 A's, second one-she basically told me she was going to have it. She told me she didn't love me, blah blah blah. Everything she says is right out of the WS fog-babble handbook.

I recognize that she has issues(quite a few from what I can see)...and my marriage vows were "in sickness and in health...".

She has borrowed money(in the few thousand range) from my mother, and will probably never pay it back(usually due to her ineptitude with dealing with money and bills, and her refusal to let me deal with financial things-very bullheaded). My family has witnessed all the negative crap that I have dealt with in the past three years (we have been together for a total of 7 years), and they pretty much hate her. They have told me that if I take her back, they will disown me. They think I am crazy, because I frequent MB forums. Do you know what I say to them? Tough. Deal with it. My decisions are my decisions. Can I flip a switch so that I can turn off what love I have left for my WW? No. Should I completely abandon her, knowing that she is "sick"? No.

My friends, the few that I have (most have moved away since I centered my life around my W), don't agree with me. They don't voice it, but I sense it. One is a struggling Christian that understands where I stand. The other one thinks my WW is *enter your own expletives here*, but he also respects where I am coming from. Everyone else says I am crazy, except the wonderful friends I have made here on this board.

I guess what I am trying to say, IMO, is that if you have any love for your WS, even a sliver, then to h3ll what other people think. If a person wants to make noble attempts to save thier marriage, then may God be with them, and everyone else and thier opinions just don't matter.

Do I feel any shame? Part of me does, and the other part does not. Does it matter? Only when all my love for my WW has slipped away into oblivion.

With all of that said, and considering that this is my WW's 2nd A...I do have stipulations that I have outlined in another thread, for any possible recovery. These stipulations are based on experience, and common sense. If my WW cannot agree to my stipulations, I know that I cannot trust her again. And regardless of EN's being met or not met, given the issues she has (mental and emotional), if the stipulations aren't met, she will cheat again. As her dad (who is on my side) has told her numerous times, "_____, you are happy to be unhappy". She has a void in her soul that no one, not me, not any OM, can fill, until she recognizes that she needs help, and that she wants to help herself.

As I said, "In sickness and in health...", and I cannot shut off love that is still there, regardless of what she has done...

I hope that my lengthy response can give you insight into why some of us BS put up with what we put up with...not to say that I can put up with it forever, but I must exhaust all options before I throw in the towel.

Dimmu

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, including my family. I am true to myself and my God and that's all that matters. I am in charge of my life and no one else.

If they feel shame or guilt or whatever then it is thiers to deal with. I can only take care of myself.

Life is too short to worry about what others think because most of the time they don't. They also don't really know my circumstances either.

D.

Lemonman,

As a FWW I care what people think of me, and I know my H most definitely does. Having said that, since I confessed on Dday I have told some people, my closest relations/friends, and while they initially told me how stupid I was (and they were right), they also supported me during times when I was extremely depressed.

My H has told no one, because he is worried about what they would think of him and of me. I can understand he needs to do what he needs to do, but I think it would help him if he talked to at least an IC.

Some friends of ours also went through an A situation last year. Our friend (the BS) found that she was advised to forget about her H by some friends and family, because he was a **** who didn't deserve her etc. She was hurt by these kind of comments, since she didn't know what she wanted to do at the time, and it reflected badly on her, since it implied that she was stupid and weak, having married an ****. I think only someone who has never been through this kind of situation could make those kind of comments, but sadly, gossip and judgementalness are really common.

LM

There are aonly a select few people who know about the affair and my efforts to recovery from it.

I expected to feel ashamed early on, because I was a cuckold - a traditional figure of mockery but nothing could be further from the truth.

Everyone who expressed an opinion are just delighted we haven't split yet and that our lives are improving.
Some who know the details are in awe of MB and how I applied it. Even my cro-magnon BIL says "you're a better man than me". ( I knew thatanyway!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Even OM GF has been supportive.

So I don't feel and embarassment, shame or anything bad. I mean I wouldn't make tee shirts up about the asitch <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> but those who know the facts are supportive. In truth LM most folks believe they would kick a WS to the kerb as I believed pre-A. Those that know me as a proud, tradtional 'hunter gatherer' simply can't believe my measured response to this. Neither can I !

You have every right to want to end your M after this infidelity. You also have every right to attempt recovery if you so desired.

An obvious point that has been made many times here: this forum is not a typical demographic of post-affaor WS and BS. By definition it is the folks who want to give it a go at recovery.

When your general tenet regarding recovery is fudamentally different to that of most posters on here frustration is bound to develop.

Lemonman,

I did not tell the world about my H's affair(s).

I am a strong person. I did not feel I needed people's support if I chose to leave my H. I didn't feel, either, like I needed to destroy his repuatation among our families and friends.

But I never felt I "protected" him. The first affair was told to one of my brothers and one of my sisters and a good friend. His mother also knew. I needed their support as I figured out where this marriage was going to go. I knew that telling my entire family and circle of friends would be detrimental to the one thing I knew I had to do: make the right decision about whether to stay in my marriage or not.

I didn't want a gazillion opinions. I didn't want to talk about it 24/7. I needed to process what had happened in a sane manner. So I told only the people who I thought could help me make a sound decision. I didn't really care what any one else thought.

The second time around, I told only my close friend. I did not need tell anyone else until I decided if the marriage was worth saving. He ended the affair on d-day (though, as you say, there was some negligible contact after that). Had we split up, I would have been honest about why. We didn't. And I am glad the whole world doesn't know our business. I don't believe ezxposure would have helped our recovery as it has for others. For me, it would have just muddied the waters.

Am I also glad that members of my family aren't looking down their noses at my H? I don't think they would have in any case because I have a forgiving, supportive family. But, yes, I think we spared our marriage some pain in an already painful recovery process.

I don't disagree with exposure when it is necessary (ie, a WS moves out of the home to move in with the OP) or the BS needs support from family and friends. I think it is the choice for the individual to make based on their situation. If the affair continues after d-day exposure can be a critical component of ending the affair. In our case contact, essentially, ended on dday.

Hope I answered your questions.

~ Snow

-- edited for clarity

<small>[ October 30, 2004, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]</small>

Hi LM,

In my case, the first clue I had regarding the infidelity "spectre" in my marriage were the EAs 4-5 yeas ago. At the the point of discovery, W was fully prepared to fly to California F to F (face to face) with OM. Fortunately, OM (Stanley, you'll love this) - a drunken Indian on disability for Cirhossis (really) - was not interested in meeting or any type of real" relationship (only wanted to "cyber").

how did your family take it...Both of our daughter's know about W's affairs. While neither is particularly happy, youngest (28yo) has take a more "pragmatic" approach to the situation. On the other hand, our oldest (32yo) was and is livid! To say that the relationship between these two women is strained, would be an understatement! As I have attempted to explain to the W, this reaction really is not so surprising considering the pedestal on which children (even grown ones) tend to place their parents. Sometimes, learning that a parent is flawed or has acted foolishly can be a scarey and shocking revelation.

Re. "extended" family, I'm certain that no one on W's side has any idea (both W's parents have passed). For myself, both mother and father offer the customary..."we're sorry", "how can we help", "if ya need a place to get away, get your a$$ home" comments, but of course there really is nothing they can do except provide a shoulder on which to cry. My siblings...two younger sisters...both on second marriages. Neither has said much other than the obligatory "I'm sorry", "you'll survive either way" stuff.

Friends...(and I've got some good ones)...are probably the only reason last OM is not deceased. Without their intervention, OM (or at least pieces of 'im) would be gator bait (literally)!! In my case (lucky me), I've got multiple OM's, and I fully expect at least two to approach me for a confrontation (their personality type dictates confrontation as a means of "saving face"), the other two only wanted to "bump uglies" with W and are probably on to next "cyber conquest". But, since I have no faces to go with these mystery men, you can well imagine my trepidation at the approach of any strange males. It's all an odd feeling (but not totally unfamiliar, not one I've had for many years...since VietNam)...always on edge, always wary of those around you and cognizant of your surroundings, "guard" always up. Not a feeling I much cared for then...not one I much care for now!

feel embarrassed, shame... yes. Had that invisible "cukold" label hung around my neck. Initially felt small, insignificant, and cheap for weeks. "Infidelity diet" didn't help! Managed to work through all the emotions by concentrating on me! Found that physical exertion (release of endorphins) worked wonders as a "vent"and provided a much needed lift.

"human nature to 'care what other people think' " Found out a LONG time ago that Shakespeare was right...This above all; to thine own self be true. Don't much give a damn what anyone else thinks (yes, I have an attitude, but it's just a small one)!

LM, each of us has our own "situation". Each of us has to evaluate that situation, and determine what we feel comfortable with re. our M and any recovery effort. Often the "gut check" indicates that the situation really is untenable, and that Plan "D" needs implementation. No one else can make that determination for us. As far as the MB "Program", it's just that a program (a prescription if you will), not recommended for all "patients" and not always effective. Unfortunately, there's no magic "vaccination" to cure the infidelity "bug". You simply use what's available and hope for the best.

LM, I appreciate your style...straight forward and to the point. Few minced words. Perhaps not the "bed side manner" many have come to expect here @ MB, but (I believe) effective. Stick around, a slightly different point of view is often VERY effective.

Re "recovery"...I'll have to get back to ya on that. The patient's still on the operating table!

Bob Pure's words probably sum up my feelings re. adultery best..."Affairs are absolutely foul, evel sh1t that splash poison, hatred, sadness, and heartbreak on all affected by them."

<small>[ October 30, 2004, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: Ron53 ]</small>

IMHO it is more difficult to stay married than to divorce. If you know you cannot love and forgive then it is best to end it. It takes a high level of self esteem to be strong enough to face others after an affair. I know people were talking about my H and I. They still so sometimes. People will talk and get quiet when you get closer to them. Many people want to see others fail-as long as it is not them.

Yes, it is/was tough, but we are great together and stronger than before. I am a very strong person who has lived a full life even before marriage, so for me it isn't that hard. I really could care less what others think. We have a great life together now and that is what matters. It was great before the affair, maybe that matters too. It was just a MLC. People are not perfect and neither is the world. Some people expect perfection from others-I'm not perfect, so I don't expect others to be.

Hi Lemonman, Do you have children? I am convinced this makes an almighty difference to the way people react after discovering an A. I'm only speaking for myself here but I know my immediate reaction was to save 'our family'. It took a long time for me to tell our parents (6 months). Both sets have really come out in my favour and been incredibly supportive but I still think they'd love it if we could work things out. My WH on the other hand, is mortified at the thought of facing my parents. In fact, I think it is one of the reasons he has left us. Recovery would be too much like hard work. He is stubborn (typical Virgo) and can't handle stress (health issues). So it's easier to fall into the arms of OW than to struggle through a recovery that might not work.

We had already discussed separation and after 8 months with no remorse, I was prepared for it. I could not save OUR marriage on MY own. I think I might come to a point where I can forgive him for what he has done to me but not what he has done to our 3 beautiful girls. They are so lovely and special and have been so neglected whilst he lived his seedy double life. I think I've digressed ... have completely forgotten what this was all about but I'll post it anyway and hope I'm not wasting your time! I reckon you might have a different perspective if you'd discovered this wonderful website earlier, but what the hell, I love your perspective. It's refreshing. TT

In discovery of my H's first affair [MB unaware], I remember after telling my SIL's they told me not to tell anyone because people would look at my H as though he has three heads.

Once we reconciled, I remember I declined going to several get-togethers with friends of ours. These were OUR friends who during the affair my husband included OW in events and BBQ and all sorts of get-togethers.

It's important to remember my H fathered a child with this OW.

So yes, LemmonMan, to be honest I was humilated, hurt and felt embarrassed to be around those folks after my H and I recovered. I went dark socially for a good amount of time.

Flash forward 8 years later and my H has a second affair. I find MB. And this time I was not hestitant about exposing him to ALL. I also held my head high this time, I learned from MB that I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG. I had no shame for being a faithful wife to my husband.

I still hurt, of course, I still was devistated and had a heck of a time dealing with my hurt feelings, BUT I was not embarrassed of who I was. My H was the one having an affair, betraying me and humiliating himself.

I was blessed to find this place.

Love,
Jo

Many have implied that one does not tell family and friends because of low self-esteem or concern for gossip (or what others may think).

Far from the truth! I have done nothing wrong and I would feel no shame or guilt. However, in the process of making the affair public I would destroy the lives of my five children who would likely suffer as much as I have as a BS. In the eyes of everybody our marriage is the most perfect union in the world. I have no desire to cause harm to my children just because I am scorned.

If the affair was not a secret my wife could not face anyone. She could not face her own children and surely everyone in my family would advice divorce. Adultery is unknown in my side of the family so I would not expect anything, but "dump her" from them. ON my wife's side of the family there may be more understanding, but even them it would be difficult. We would also get our share of "dump her" and plenty of negative criticism.

And lastly, I know the publication of the affair would cause a mortal wound to my wife and I could not live with myself if I cause such harm to her. As I said before I would keep the affair a secret even if we were going thru a divorce. There is no need to drag someone thru the mud for payback.

As for telling everybody to force the wife to stop the affair:

If that was the case I would probably walk away rather than to tell the world. To accept the wife back was a huge thing for me, but it was not difficult because I love her and she wanted to stay married to me. If I had not seen any desire from her part to keep the marriage alive I would be a goner by now.

So I guess--- going public is an option for those who want to save the marriage "no matter what".

For me it was never an option and never will be. BTW, if the OM had a wife would have call her. But, that is it-- no one else would know.

<small>[ October 30, 2004, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Lemmonman, I honestly don't know your story but I have been meaning to post to you. The thing that jumps out to me in all your posts is that you include a "disclaimer" in most of your posts. And that is when you say my opinion is this but a thousand other posters will tell you the opposite. I think all opinions respectfully given are fairly well recieved. It doesn't matter what anyone else comes along to say. I have a particular approach that I know makes many BS's crazy. I am extremely empathetic to the WS's pain. I want to use this point to address one of your questions and that is the one about what family and friends think that you've taken your WS back.

I have gotten "I give you a lot of credit" from SIL to "please don't divorce my daughter" from MIL. And I have never discussed the situation with either. They simply know and will offer me these supportive comments from time to time. I want to scream that I'm not the one that needs there support. While it is flattering I really no longer care what anybody thinks. THAT is what got me in trouble to begin with. My W had a ONS and confessed. In an effort to protect her reputation I said nothing to anyone including OM. I continued to be in a group that included the OM at social events and even in my home. All the while playing the fool to protect W's good name. My reward for doing this was that my W continued a lopsided EA for the next two years. She would call OM behind my back 30 times a month and sing along to songs that told me she was thinking about him.

So I consider myself at the other end of the spectrum from where you are. But we can learn from eachother. Do I want to stay M'd at all costs? Absolutely! Not a necessarily popular opinion around here but it is right for me and my children. Do I love my W as much as ever? Yes. Do I forgive her completely? Yes. Be patient things start to get a little clearer. But I think one of my most unpopular positions is that there is no doubt in my mind I could have been the WS. So how would I want to be treated if the shoe was on the other foot?

There was a guy named Bryanp that used to post to me to basically kick my no good whore wife to the curb. I didn't get offended with his position but it simply didn't apply for me. I hope you don't think I'm criticizing you. I'm only trying to point out that others peoples opinion, even family members are meaningless in your M. I learned that the hard way.

WOE