Good morning everyone!<P>I find that most betrayers here on the MB Infidelity forum are profoundly remorseful for their words and actions during their affairs.<P>In an earlier post, I wanted to understand the fantasy (high) of the affair. Almost without exception, every betrayer described how selfish they became during their affair. From what I have come to know of the betrayers that have responded, I would NOT characterize any of them as selfish. I can only conclude, therefore, that it must be the desire to maintain the "high" that causes normally unselfish people to become selfish.<P>My questions for you:<P>1. Were you aware of this extremely selfish behavior toward your spouse, family and friends DURING the affair...and just didn't care? Or was the "high" so overwhelming that you "knew not what you were doing"?<P>2. When "reality" hit (however that occured), did you suddenly become more cognizant of these destructive behaviors toward your loved ones?<P>3. Today, are you able to recall with perfect clarity all the things you said and all the things you did to your spouse and other loved ones that were so destructive? (I guarantee that your betrayed spouse can almost recite every word that was said!)<P>I'm not asking these questions to dredge up bad memories or try to make betrayers feel terrible for what they did. I know that you are all remorseful and are working hard to rebuild your marriages (fantastic!) I ask because I'm both fascinated and despondent at the "Jekyl and Hyde" syndrome that I witness in my W. It's almost as if she is possessed. (Who am I kidding, Satan does have a grip on her now...but not for long if I can help it!)<P>If it's true that betrayers only begin to understand the scope of the destruction their affair caused AFTER reality sets in, I can completely understand why many feel suicidal initially. Is it really a shock, or did you know all along the things you were saying and doing were causing terrible anguish?

Good morning back at ya, Shattered!<P>I hesitated to write back on this one, really I did. My H and I were going through the posts and we both sat here reading this... me, remembering, and he, wondering. So, I will attempt to answer your questions, for your sake, and also, so that my H understands where I was coming from...<P>You asked: 1. Were you aware of this extremely selfish behavior toward your spouse, family and friends DURING the affair...and just didn't care? Or was the "high" so overwhelming that you "knew not what you were doing"?<P>Answer: Somewhere inside, yes I knew, but I didn't care. That's the sad truth of it. That high you talk about... ah, yes... SO high that I couldn't see anything else. Even my H will tell you this. He will tell you I floated, I looked and smelled perfect, I smiled more than I had during the year prior. In short, I was happy, and it wasn't with him. I put on the perfume, and I knew it was for the OM, and I didn't care.<P>You asked: 2. When "reality" hit (however that occured), did you suddenly become more cognizant of these destructive behaviors toward your loved ones?<P>Answer: Ohmygod, it was the worst. As you know, I slept with the OM only once. THAT day is forever emblazened in my mind, not because of its beauty (which didn't exist) but because of how I acted. It was after work and I was planning on meeting him in 1/2 hr. I came home and my daughter needed my car. I freaked. I had no way to contact the OM and we were to meet in a parking lot to drive to the hotel. I yelled about my daughter's selfishness of not telling me ahead of time that she'd need my car, made up some huge story about meeting friends or something, and I HAD to have my car, and blah, blah, blah... I don't even remember what I said. All I knew was I HAD to go. Looking back, God probably TRIED to give me an out, but I didn't take it. That day was the beginning of the end for me. I told my H of the seriousness of the affair that night. Within three days he knew I'd slept with the OM. I spent much of the next three weeks in a near-death state. Ask my H, I'm serious. I crumpled on the floor, cried for days, and lost weight. Just like my H did. We were quite a pair. And it was all my fault.<P>You asked: 3. Today, are you able to recall with perfect clarity all the things you said and all the things you did to your spouse and other loved ones that were so destructive? <P>Answer: Not even! I remember snippets of information, like that day at the hotel.<BR>All I remember is that I HAD to have this man who made me "feel alive". I had to take care of MYSELF no matter what it did or did not do for my family. I figured they would understand, in the end. I thought that my teenagers would accept the OM because he was a cool guy, very different from their dad. I thought that I was happy. I WAS AN IDIOT!<P>Shattered, I know that you aren't asking these questions to dredge up memories, but they did nonetheless. I wish, with all of my heart, that I could take back every hateful, hurtful thing I did. I wish that I could make everyone understand the consequences of their actions before they jumped off into the deep end. I wish every adulterer felt the same way. You know, it's quite possible that they don't, or that they will never feel the remorse that I have felt. There are probably some defining characteristics that we all share, but there are some feelings, some circumstances that differ. When my H cheated, I felt I was to blame. When I cheated, I felt the same. I could see my part in both scenerios. It hurts, no matter which side you're on.<P>As always, I wish your wife would get her head on straight and come home to you. I wish she would see the scum for what he is and be there for you. On the other hand, I can understand the lure of a distant country, a life away from real life, and the thought that her life is passing her by if she stays in the marriage. That DOES NOT make what she's doing right, please don't misunderstand. I think that women's affairs mean something completely different than mens affairs. I wanted a white knight on a steed to sweep me away from my life. That's what I found, I'd thought. My H, he wanted romance too, but he wanted the touch of someone. <P>I guess what I'm trying to say is that I respect your desire to put your broken marriage back together, and I respect you as a person. I wish you every happiness that life has to offer, you know that.<P>Unfortunately though, I do understand some of what your W is going through. That's the REALLY SAD THING, and it makes me feel terrible all over again.<P>------------------<BR>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<BR>God bless us one and all... we need it!

NB, I just want to thank you for such an open an honest answer to this post.<BR>It reflects most of what my H has been trying to put in words - but can't:he's not a word person -. ANd I think it reflects what happens in most affairs.<BR>I read your answers and I admire you. Being able to honestly talk about something even when it's something we have done wrong, takes courage, and you have it.<BR>Have a great day<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

1. Were you aware of this extremely selfish behavior toward your spouse, family and friends DURING the affair...and just didn't care? Or was the "high" so overwhelming that you "knew not what you were doing"?<P>In retrospect, during that time I was going through a profound personal crisis. I was doubting every thing I had ever done and felt completely alone in the world. At the time, I felt the years I spent with my husband had been a complete waste, that he couldn't love me or know me, and the fact that I could have feelings for someone else was further proof of my weakness and unworthiness. So my "selfishness" took the form of not being able to see the good around me. <P>2. When "reality" hit (however that occured), did you suddenly become more cognizant of these destructive behaviors toward your loved ones?<BR>When "reality" hit, I was more aware of my self-destructive behaviors first. I honestly believed (then) that my husband would be happier without me. I still believe that my infidelity only gave my ex an excuse to do what he wanted to do, and didn't have the courage to do either, and that was to get a divorce. I could have found that out without doing such a shameful thing myself. <P>3. Today, are you able to recall with perfect clarity all the things you said and all the things you did to your spouse and other loved ones that were so destructive? (I guarantee that your betrayed spouse can almost recite every word that was said!)<BR>Yes, and I can recite every hurtful thing he said to me too. He didn't betray me sexually (that I know of), but he betrayed me in a million little ways before anything happened. Long before anything happened I would tell him how much his words hurt me, but to no avail. This still doesn't excuse my behavior, but my ex is not the only one who felt betrayed. <P>At the time, I felt my marriage was hopeless, that I had tried and failed many times to get my husband to listen to me. At the time, divorce was worse than infidelity in my mind. I should have had the courage to send my H packing if he wouldn't listen to me, but instead, coped with my feelings in the worst possible way. <P>In my opinion (and you are welcome to disagree) in many cases where someone cheats in a long-term and faithful relationship, odds are that neglect of the relationship has been occuring for some time by both people. So not only does the person who was betrayed (sexually or emotionally) have to deal with the very real problems in the marriage, they are forced to overcome the additional pain of betrayal with an outside person. Fortunately, the MB principles have shown success in helping couples either regain, or maintain a conscious relationship before it gets to the point where the other person is ready to throw in the towel.

Hi Shattered,<P>I didn't respond to your previous thread because the concept of continuing the affair in my H's face really boggles my mind. As I've said many times before, my affair was based on the contingency of my H never finding out about it. Period. I would have never continued with him knowing, as the objective was never to leave him for OM. So, I don't know if my experience will lend you any insight into what your W is going through. I, like you, am dumbfounded by such behavior.<P>I knew that having an affair was morally wrong, but truthfully, I didn't really look at it as "harming" anyone because deep down inside I really thought my H didn't care what I did or where I went. (See my thread "Help needed from the men...") I felt very alone and severely neglected in my marriage. Emotionally isolated. I never had to leave my H home alone to go be with OM because H was hardly ever there. I didn't have to lie to H's face about where I was going because H never asked me. I had all the conveniences to have the affair at my fingertips, and what can I say, I went for it. It was selfish, totally, but the alternative, denying myself this happiness, had grown inconceivable. Had I really known in my heart that I could have had the kind of life H and I have now, I would have never had the affair. Never. But, at the time, that seemed completely out of reach.<P>The reality didn't hit until I found out H had an affair the year before I did. When I found out how sordid my life had become, I was devastated. It was one thing for me to be having an affair, in a sick way, I thought I could handle that, but I couldn't handle both of us doing that. That spelled a sordidness that completely ickened me. So, it was over. It was over for me, and dangit, it was over for H as far as I was concerned. Either we were going to fix our problems and our marriage once and for all, or it was over. I'm so grateful H felt the same way.<P>I have a memory like a steel trap, it retains everything. However, H remembers virtually nothing about his affair (or so he says ). So, I think this varies from person to person. And I also think this varies by the amount of guilt the person feels. My H is still consumed with guilt for his having an affair, so I think he may suppress the details. He would sooner cut off his right arm than to relive any of those details. He hasn't even come close to forgiving himself for it. I worry about him. While I feel remorseful for my having an affair, I understand how it happened and I have forgiven myself. Maybe that's why I can remember details more?<P>So, like I said, I doubt my experience will help you in your situation. Even if I hadn't found out my H had an affair, but that he found out about mine and really wanted to change and work on things, I'd have dropped OM like a hot potato. But, only if he was 100% committed to making the necessary changes. I couldn't have beared to give OM up and go back to the emotional wasteland I was in before. If you are promising your W changes and yet she still will not let OM go and refuses to listen, then I really don't know what to tell you.<P>I just hope she hits rock bottom soon and that you can forgive her and go forward with her. Dr. Harley says it's possible and he's been around awhile. So, cling to that as long as you can. Wish there was more I could do to help.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.<p>[This message has been edited by new woman (edited September 19, 1999).]

I appreciate all the honest answers to your questions. What I am hoping for is an honest answer to what my H has and is doing, and that is: why the multiple affairs? Why so many OW? Some of these affairs appear to have lasted for long periods of time (not just one night stands) Why did he just not leave our marriage years ago? He says he still loves me, which is really confusing. Any insight will be appreciated.

Bringing this thread back to the top. Are there any more betrayers who can comment on this? There are a few of us who need to understand why and how the insensitivity and selfishness enters the picture. Thanks.