I just remembered something my H said to me today during our heated discussions.

He suggested maybe I should have an A and maybe then I could get over my pain of suspecting him. He still denies that he did of course...

But isn't it odd that he would suggest that to me?

Danneill

Hi Danneill,

My W told me to go have an A after I found out about her "first" A.... This is a fairly common statement that some WS will use to help ease their own guilt... (Gee, if my W/H has an A, then my current A won't be so bad, will it?)

I'm sorry, but my vote is that your H is either involved in an A now, or was involved in the past...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Hi Danneill,

I'm with RIF90 on this one. NO HUSBAND (in his right mind) PROPOSES THAT HIS WIFE HAVE AN AFFAIR!

With advance apologies to Wm Shakespeare..."something's rotten in the state of Denmark"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Danneill:
But isn't it odd that he would suggest that to me?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's more than "odd". It's very unloving.

Would you tell one of your kids to go do some activity that you know would hurt them? If your child accused you of drinking too much alcohol, would you say;

"Go get drunk yourself and then maybe then you will stop accusing me of drinking too much!"

See how unloving this is when you take the principle behind his remark and apply it to a different situation?

You H may or may not be having an affair... BUT...

Right now he is behaving in a very UNloving way toward you.

My advice:

STOP accusing him.

STOP discussing your suspicions.

Plan A ... meet ENs, no LBs... and become a very good listener. Listen more than you speak. Control your desire to confront. In fact, for now, bury your desire to confront.

and do some covert detective work. Install a voice-activated recorder under his car seat. (cheap at Radio Shack) Google "spy store" and you can find sites that sell things like "nanny-cams" cameras hidden inside ordinary objects. If you go to the welcoming thread on the "Just Found Out" MB board, and go to the bottom where it says "notable posts" ... look for the section that discusses spying.

Be the stellar wife for the next 4-8 weeks... all the while searching into his activities. When you are Plan-Aing him he may drop his guard because he'll figure you are completely trusting. Give him every reason to feel that you are completely fooled. In fact, apologize for accusing him. Tell him you were wrong.

You have NO REASON to completely trust him right now because his remark was VERY UNloving.... and very suspicious. But you have no proof, so be the good wife, love the heck out of him, and search around for proof.

Pep

Thanks everyone,
I thought I had read that somewhere here at MB.
Although long past, OW moved away last year, I never did learn the truth and probably never will.

We still have alot of other conflicts and it gets drug into them also. He loves to justify his alcohol abuse in response to my accusations of his A.

I still feel so much pain from it (he putting OW's needs before mine) that I can't seem to let it go. He tells me to just get over it, guess I should for my own sanity. Easier said than done.

In my view, when he told me to go have an A and maybe I'll get over it, It was an admission of guilt? Yet he still denies. Hard to figure out, ya know.

But he is an alcoholic, we do not have a "normal" relationship.

my previous thread is
with his dead friends wife

thanks for your input. I was shocked when he said that to me especially after all this time.
Danneill

It's quite possible that "nothing happened", it's also quite possible that "something" did.

It's quite possible that his remark is because I cannot put it behind me.

It's quite possible that he said it because I still believe he's guilty and he is just sick of my way of thinking and maybe if I do it I'll give it up and shut up.

It's a part of our ongoing conflict among many other issues.
who knows?? Only he and her and God know for sure.

By the way....that is the very LAST thing on my mind. Don't need, don't want another man in my life. Got enough stress to deal with already.


Danneill

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Danneill:
But he is an alcoholic, we do not have a "normal" relationship.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have a "normal alcoholic marriage".

I did too... my H is going to celebrate his 9th AA birthday this year.

Plan A when the cheating spouse is an active alcoholic... is giving him license to drink and screw around without consequence.

I am ammending my previous post.

Plan A for 2 weeks so you can spy. A prolonged Plan A on an alcoholic makes the alcoholic VERY happy with his reward for bad behavior.

Do you want to stay married to him if he remains a drunk?

I did not. After I discovered my H's A ... I told him there was no comming back unless he went to and stayed in AA. His response? "I will stop drinking." ... My response? "No, you have to go to and remain in AA , or it is over between us." And, it was not an idol threat, I meant every word.

He did go... he LOVES AA ... that was my boundary.

Do you know how to tell when a drunk is lying?

His lips are moving.

Call out to Melodylane and ask her what she was like when she was a drunk. She has 2 decades of sobriety, and she is very wise.

Pep

<small>[ October 31, 2004, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Thanks Pep,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you know how to tell when a drunk is lying? His lips are moving.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love this!

MelodyLane has been a tremendous help to me.
She has been great in response to many of my other posts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told him there was no comming back unless he went to and stayed in AA. His response? "I will stop drinking." ... My response? "No, you have to go to and remain in AA , or it is over between us." And, it was not an idol threat, I meant every word. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is exactly what my next step is. I'm just waiting to finanlize it.

Also, finally found an Alanon meeting to go to. I'm looking forward to it.

Just when I thought maybe he may be innocent though is when he threw that at me about having my own A.
The man has me stymied!

Thankee, Pep, you are alright for a flatheaded left coast gal! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Danneill and I had a discussion on her other thread about getting into Alanon. She is trying to find meetings right now.

Danneill, Pep is right about Plan A with a practicing alcoholic. You will only make things worse for yourself if you practice Plan A with him. He will view it an opportunity to exploit you further. It is impossible to meet the needs of a practicing alc and trying to meet his needs only gives him new opportunities to abuse you. They don't react to kindness the way a normal person does, they view as a new opportunity to exploit.

So watch your back and get thyself to an Alanon meeting. The marriage can never recover until he sobers up.

Danneill, I will add that I am sober today because my XH said to me:

"AA or the highway."

He was done with me if I didn't go to AA and stop drinking. He was going to put me on a bus to my mothers in freaking Kansas! That is why I am sober for 19.5 years. AA is full of people who were forced there. Believe me, they don't wake up one day and magically see the error of thier ways and skip happily to their first AA meeting. They sober up only when they HAVE to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>

Do you know how to tell when a drunk is lying?

His lips are moving.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">bwahahaahaa! You know what the Alanon salute is?? Hand to forehead with a longsuffering sigh! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ October 31, 2004, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

If I were a dude I'd ask ya to marry me Mel

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thank you thank you!!

As I have explained already, I am only moving next door as I have all this livestock to care for, and I have no choice but to continue to do the books.

One thing that Elan said to me in another thread was that the ones that are abusive but not phsically abusive can and sometimes do get that way when you leave them.

Another thing that concerns me. I don't believe he will give up the alcohol to save this M. I will try to be optomistic, but I think I'll have to resign to that fact.

One of our businesses requires that he spend time (sales calls) with customers. These are good ole boy (farmers) that drink alot of beer. Many meetings and sales are even done in the bar. Many of them are his drinking buddies. He'll never admit to any of them that drinking is a problem for him. It's a problem for 90% of them also.

Give up the business? Not gonna happen. It's all he knows, farming is his life. Never worked for anyone before. Between the farm and the ag related sales is the only means of making a living for him. The farm may pay for itself, but the sales are what support us.

Just my thoughts
Danneill

Danniell, many alcoholics can and do do business at cocktail parties/bars, etc and don't drink. It is not an impediment. That is just an excuse that alcoholics use to continue drinking.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One thing that Elan said to me in another thread was that the ones that are abusive but not phsically abusive can and sometimes do get that way when you leave them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really. More likely they crumble and become wimpering little cry babies when they are threatened with losing their crutches. It is usually the threat of losing something: spouse/job/freedom that scares alcoholics into stopping drinking.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another thing that concerns me. I don't believe he will give up the alcohol to save this M. I will try to be optomistic, but I think I'll have to resign to that fact.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And he is guaranteed to NEVER give up the alcohol if you continue to enable him. You would be surprised at how very very dependent alcoholics are on their spouses. They are like little children when threatened with the loss of their spouse. You might not see it through the all the cockiness and false bravado, but inside he is probably scared to death to lose you, his enabler.

Danniell, you have more excuses than an alcoholic! You should write a book! lol! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ October 31, 2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

No more excuses MelodyLane!


OK, here goes all. The renters are out. I'm moving. Going to start packing
today and tomarrow. I'll keep it hidden until most of it is ready to go.

Today I spoke with IC about a separation letter. She thought it was a good idea.
Just so he knows what I expect of him and what he can expect of me
since a black plan B is not feasible.

I'd like to include for example:
DD is 17 next week, so she is free to visit her Dad at her own will anyway.
Equal access to all bank accounts. (except for my stash <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) of course.

I'll come to the house _?_ hours per week to do the books, scheduled while he is not home. (He
never is anyway.....)

I'll expect my privacy, and will respect his.

No 3rd parties are to be involved until recoverery or resolution is determined.

Joint Agreement in writing......If M recovers then no SF with each other until STD
test are obtained.

Boundaries...
No alcohol is allowed in my home.
Angry people are not welcome in my home if they have been drinking.

I will consider negotiations and recovery when:
1. AA is part of your life
2. IC is initiated and continued
3. MC is obtained

On another note, I'd like to put some type of time limit on his end of the bargaining.
I've spent 20 years in this M and I'm not getting any younger. If he tells me to
get F******, or pretends that his is making an attempt to quit drinking, I do not want
him to just tell me what I want to hear like he always has in the past.

What am I forgetting besides the I love you and want to put things back together??
Danneill

I have a very good family friend whose husband was an alcoholic (is now deceased from cancer) who had a legal contract drawn up that if he stopped his AA meetings and started drinking again the marriage recovery was null & void and the divorce proceedings would begin. He never drank again, took up all kinds of activities and really was a great guy. She was the mayor of our little town for years BTW, and a VERY smart woman.

You go Danniell. I know this hard and scary and I will be thinking about you through this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just an update...My IC called my H and he agreed to see her. Has an appointment Thurs. I doubt that he will go but guess I'll remain optomistic.

Have many things packed...Other house is empty...Will someone please kick me in the butt to get moved!!!!!!!!!

I just dread the fallout....

Let's see how many excuses I can come up with...

Too busy in school. Need my time to study.
Not enough time in a day.
So much work to move and I'm so tired. I never sleep as it is.
My back is gonna hurt like heck carrying everything. (ruptured 2 disks couple years ago)
Terrible thing to do to daughter moving out of a big beautiful house into a mobile home.
H is working 15 hr days and does not know how to run a washing machine or dishwasher.

Let's face it. I'm scared of the consequences...
Help!!!!!!!
Danneill

Danneil,

How is his behaviour now that you are packed and ready to go? Does he know?

Hi Weaver,
I believe he again does not take me serious. I spoke with his Mom yesterday and when I mentioned moving she said, "Are you still on that kick?" I told her it was not a kick...I am moving.

As far as him,
He has been drinking every night so I avoid him if possible. We only see each other maybe 20-30 minutes per day. He came in last night ( 11 p.m.)kinda drunk asking (loudly!) Is there anything to eat around here? I calmly said yes there is steak in the fridge, I will cook it for you. He said no, he'll cook it in his barn.

Fine...that's where he can go have a few more beers while he cooks. Thats why he won't bring the grill back here on the deck. I can see him through the window tipping his elbow and it ain't PEPSI!

Anyway, This morn we dicussed farm business for a few minutes. I told him I am writing down my hours spent on farm books and other farm office stuff so he knows how long it takes to keep things in order. (He doesn't think I do anything around here)
I told him that I will be busy with school and moving but will still keep things done here in the office. He said that if moving is what I want to do, then move, and he left...

He came back 10 minute's later and said if I wanted my business back then I should go get financing and start it back up. I said that is not what I want to do.
I think now he is backpeddeling. He realizes forcing me out of business was a mistake,,,that now I do not have the huge responsibility holding me here..oops...Think he knows he screwed up there.

I repeated that I do not want to restart my business...He said that I ruined his day so he thought he would come ruin mine too. Thats why he came back.

He'll probably come in 3 sheets to the wind (drunk) again tonight.
But he'll swear he only had 2 beers if I ask him.
Danneill

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Danneill ]</small>

Do you have support at Al-anon set up yet?

Will his Mother support you once you leave and things get ugly, or is she stuck in enabler mode? She does not drink right? Is is dad still alive and does he still drink?

Just trying to get an idea of the kind of support system you have, since you will be so close and your lives are so entwined with the business.

I have some some feelings about how I think this will play out but will keep them to myself.

You really need the strong support and safety system Al-anon can give you before you do this.

I don't know what stage of alcoholism he is in or how the violence factor could play out.

Please, please make sure you have the support you need first. You don't want to leave and then have to go back before he is sober or things will really be bad. Then you'll have to wait for that wind to blow your sails again. We don't want that!

You know him, so you have an idea.

I can't even tell you how much I admire you right now. You are smart enough to know that this is what needs to happen now. I could just give you a big hug.