This is one of the more crucial and confusing points in the recovery process. I, as a BS, know intellectually a WS must have lots and lots of pain.

But that raises questions for me. What is the source of the pain? Is it the loss of the "soulmate"? Is it the loss of self respect? Is it because I interrupted the A? It is the loss of innocence in the M? How much of the pain is caused by anger for having the "love" in the A left to be unrequieted?

Rather, is the pain caused by their realization of the damage they have committed to their M? It is pain for deceiving their spouse and children, friends, relatives, not to mention themselves? Is it pain from having to face these people after forsaking them to whatever extent during the A? It is pain for forsaking vows, and their promise before their God?

These questions are in every BS's mind.

So, yes, there is pain. But what is critical, IMHO, is how the WS reacts to that pain. And how they react may or may not be directly related to what is causing the pain. The two categories above could lead a WS to react in two distinctly different manners. In the first case, a WS could react in a sullen and depressed manner, sticking to the WS epithet, "let's just forget it, get over it and get on with life, which leaves a BS feeling unfulfilled, hollow, used and deep down, knowing that full "recovery" may never be realized. They may not see a need for IC or MC, and refuse to participate. They may not understand the need to examine their own contributions (or lack thereof) to the marriage, which may have been part of what led the marriage to be vulnerable.

In the second category, a WS may react with genuine actions, heartfelt apologies, remorse, sorrow, grief and dedicate themselves wholly to 100% participation in building a M better than was ever believed possible. These actions may include apologies to friends and family, agreeable IC or MC sessions, change of jobs, or geographical location, or any combination of positive actions that are condusive to a healthy recovery.

For most of us BS's, the answer to these questions lies somewhere in between. I have illustrated the extremes above, to make my point. My point is, the WS's don't always have the intestinal fortitude to own up to their actions. It all comes back to the "emotional cocktail" I've alluded to in earlier posts. Perhaps our WS's are simply not "in tune" with their inner self, like we have had to become, in order to understand and commit to Plan A or B, or any plan, for that matter. Perhaps they do not know HOW to express their pain. Perhaps they are fearful they will be rejected for expressing their pain. Perhaps they are fearful they'll never feel "love" for their spouse again, because they've "lost that lovin' feeling". Perhaps they won't express themselves, because they've already inflicted crushing pain on their spouse, and the "truth" would inflict even more, and they "can't bring themselves to do it".

The bottom line is, for whatever reason, it seems that the WS is incapable of giving the BS exactly what they need to "feel warm and fuzzy" about the marriage. WS and BS are approaching the "middle ground" from entirely different perspectives. This makes the whole process very complex, and is treacherous travel, especially when one party (WS) doesn't want to process it further, and the other party (BS) HAS to process it further to move forward.

For the BS, there will always be questions that have never been answered to their full satisfaction. For the WS, there have already been too many questions, now shut up, leave me alone, let's move forward.

The answer lies in taking only as big a bite out of the elephant that you can chew and swallow in one controlled session. POJA everything, and make R talks safe for both parties. Stay calm and allow your WS to be aware of your feelings, without being threatened. They do not want every R talk to "feel" like punishment for what they've done. They are naturally defensive at every turn, and extraordinary measures must be taken to do these talks without LB's, SD's or AO's. It's a partnership, and you must put the feelings of your spouse first.

Yes, we've paid a price for being the BS. Yes, in our opinion, we've paid a bigger price than the WS. But we knew, if the M was to enter recovery, we were going to have to do the lion's share of the work. The same holds true, up to a point, during the recovery process. It it fair? Probably not. But that's the way it appears to be, IMHO.

SD

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

shattered -

I just wanted to respond to your post. I am amazed at how 'on the mark' your opinion regarding the 'feelings' and reasons for those feelings (ws) appear to be. I have been asking the same questions in my mind and on the site for months. I have always imagined the answers to be the same as the 'first scenario', but, taking into consideration my h's actions, perhaps there is hope. We don't talk about the A much anymore (it's been 21 months since it started, and 13 month since nc), but when we do, he still seems to try to convince me that there is still a "soulmate" thing floating around in his psyche somewhere. But, his actions prove otherwise. They mimic what you described in your 'second scenario'. He seems very happy, loving, affectionate (both physically and verbally) and has set both short term and long term goals for our M. Thanks for the shot in the arm (so to speak). We are in recovery but I don't think out of the woods quite yet. By the way, since you seems to have a great deal of wisdom in this area, how would you describe the bs feelings of " obsession, paronoia, etc." toward the ow? That is what I am dealing with and I don't know if I should bring it up with my h or not. He seems so contented - I don't want to stir the pot. I worry all the time about running in to her (although she lives about 500 m away) and wondering what she looks like, what she is doing with her life, is she remarried? Why am I so obsessed? Any thoughts? Anyone?

SD, this is a very thought provoking question and I do hope it catches the eye of many of the former wanderers here. Because I am simply at a loss. I told you earlier that I thought it was the loss of self respect but more and more I'm starting to think the anger comes from the pain of having the whole fantasy interupted. Obviously no matter what the recovery looks like it can't match the fantasy. I'll be interested to watch this one.

Rev.
On D-day, I had never met OW and didn't know what she looked like. The EA? lasted 4+ yrs, she was 21 yrs. younger. I know I couldn't have ever gone on without meeting her, knowing where she lived, what she looked like, etc. I had to arrange all that one day. I knew where she worked and followed her home and confronted her. I knew she knew everything about me for the last 4 yrs,....where we went....worked....everything I got for Christmas, B'days, Anniversaries, Valentines....where we ate out, what I cooked,.....she even made it a point to start using the hairdresser that worked right next to my daughter (Hairdresser) and befriended her so she could find out about our family in carefully framed conversation with her.

Shattered Dreams
I felt the same as you, exactly. I think the source of their pain just might be different in every case though. My husband's greatest pain was in talking about it with me, which he never has without winding up angry after 2 min of discussion. He'd wind up angry....I'd wind up crying.....then I'd get the blame for starting the argument (I would always treat him with respect) that is, until he would blame me....then I would wind up angry and LB. So in 5 yrs. we haven't made much progress. He ashamed of what he did and SAYS he never even thinks about it until I bring it up. He thinks the more time that goes by the more it will just be forgotten. I wish that were true.

Hi SD,
I will respond with my own feelings from a WS. Hope it helps.

I feel pain due to loss of self respect, failure of my vows, knowing I hurt (beyond belief) the one who means the most to me, knowing I have lost something sacred that can never be restored no matter how much we "recover". Knowing that I will never again be known as a faithful husband. Wanting to take it all back and willing to give up anything to make it right somehow and the truth is - it's impossible. The thing I want most is to take it all away from her, that can never happen. But I want it DAMMIT!!!

I do however think you can feel "warm and fuzzy" again. I know I do and so doe's she.

WOW, awesome post SD. I wish my WW would read it. I think about those same things when I think of her and her pain. All she thinks is I try to put all the blame on her, when i don't and tell her so. One second she looks in pain, the next indifferent, the next no remorse, in fact telling me she doesn't love me. I listen to her foggy, stupid talk and shake my head. I want to record it play it back for her ten years from now, when we're still together, 2 more children later, so she can see how dumb she really sounds.

What is the cause of her pain? That would go along way towards helping both of us recover. As a BS, I know the cause of my pain, I know my goal. The WS doesn't, and that is scary for us.

By the way, since you seems to have a great deal of wisdom in this area, how would you describe the bs feelings of " obsession, paronoia, etc." toward the ow? ........... I worry all the time about running in to her (although she lives about 500 m away) and wondering what she looks like, what she is doing with her life, is she remarried? Why am I so obsessed? Any thoughts? Anyone?

I'm not sure about any wisdom I might have, but I'll take a stab at giving you some perspective on your questions.

It's really pretty simple at face value. Human Nature. What was it about her that caught my FWH's attention? Is she prettier than me? Does she have a better figure? What was it about her that FWH was able to forsake me for her? What does she have that I don't have?

All these questions can be asked from either gender's side. Of course, the answer again, is it's Human Nature.

What can be done about it? First, divert your thoughts to something more positive and productive; ie, your FWH's renewed efforts in rebuilding the M. Any mental "time" you give her, empowers her, and you don't want to do that. And I've read many posts that state "it's not about the OP" or "it could have been anyone", so focus on FWS, and let the OP go.

Easier said than done, as I've seen many threads dedicated to fantasized deeds to the OP. My FWW's OP is a real estate agent, and works for a easily recognizable national company, and there are signs in yards all over town. Makes for a lot of triggers, but I'm working through it daily. My thoughts about OP are few and far between, and I won't allow them to last for more than just seconds when they occur. It is within your power to control your thoughts. It just takes practice.

Best wishes,
SD

thanks sd

I think I kind of knew that's what I had to do. Just thought that maybe there was some horrible thing I could do to her that would make me feel better (just kidding). Mind over matter is a difficult thing to accomplish, but as many here have attested to, it can be done. Hopefully i can as well. Thanks again

SD, do you mean I can't have any more fun with my OW revenge fantasies? I already had to give up the one where you tower over her glaring as I verbally browbeat her. Now I have to settle for Quido. OK Wise One, I'll try to harness my nasty thoughts! CV

CV...

Ain't nuthin' I can say that could keep your fantasies from spinning round that Black Mamba brain o' yours. Most would make Speilberg envious! I say, let 'em spin, but make it fun, but keep it short of an Obsession!

I'd give a nickle to be a fly on the wall with one of your "let's talk" sessions with the FWH, but I'd give myself up by giggling at one of your outrageous questions somewhere along the line.

Face it, you've got Erma Bombeck's sense of humor, but more keenly sharpened. I love your posts!

:::glaring sternly at the OW across the room, as her face flushes with fear::: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

SD

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

SD, you wouldn't want to be a fly on the wall tonight. I'm really POed at H and I was about to say "I don't know why." I'm laughing because I just said I don't know why. Gee, ya think I'm still pissed because H had a 9 month friggin A? Yeh, I guess I am!

Did you happen to see that post where I quoted from that book? The idea that acceptance isn't a one time occurence. At times I feel like I'm getting closer to acceptance. Tonight I'm actually in the "Why didn't I just chuck this M?" mode. A short while ago I quoted the e-mail H sent his former shrink in Dec. where he said something like, "I really love the OW and we've had a really strong R for 8 months." I asked H what was so darn special about their R, cause I'm really trying to get it. He told me that looking back on it he really can't see what was so special. Blah, blah, blah. Who gives a F$$$!

OK, sorry, just needed to mini-vent. I'm guilt-ridden because I did this on GQll. Sorry everybody! Recovery really is loads of fun most of the time. Right SD? By the way, when you aren't being all guruish and insightful, you are quite funny yourself. I quoted to my shrink today what you wrote about the WS and BS coming at recovery from opposite directions and she thought that was a very accurate depiction.

Well, keep on keeping on! Heck, H and I don't even share the same political views! That alone should be grounds for D. I'm babbling now! CV

SD, just one more babble thought for clarification sake. In my revenge fantasy you aren't glaring from across the room. The glare lasts as we walk up to her as she's sitting in her favorite bar, and your job is to continue "the look" while I talk the girl into hysteria. If you have any evil thoughts to add, feel free.

WOE, why aren't you posting over in Recovery. I miss you!

CV

Just how long do you think I could give "the look" when watching you unleash the Black Mamba on the OW. I'd be doubled up on the floor LMAO!!! Her brain would turn to mush, and she'd have to be carried out in a straight jacket. You, on the other hand, would be drinking for free for the rest of the night, with 100 newfound friends in the bar.

Bwaaaaa Hahahahahahaha...

Regaining control now..... ahem.....

Seacrest - out!

SD, you would have to maintain the glaring LOOK because THAT would be your job. After they remove her on the stretcher to the psych ward we'll just hit another bar and celebrate what would be my final conversation with the princess. OW by the way likes to sit at the bar I believe, so it's good your tall, it will make the towering over her easier.

Unfortunately no one in the bar will be cheering me. I think they actually like the OW. She worked there for years, even part-time in the beginning years working for H. Then she quit, went back to school, and was going to fulfill her dream of being a funeral director. Isn't it just a shame that she screwed the boss? And an even bigger shame that he had me for a W?

SD, sorry, I just can't give up my revenge fantasies yet. I told my IC today that I'm realizing that I am still really angry at the little witch. Don't think I'm obsessing. I told my shrink "They say forgiveness is for the one forgiving. Well right now I have no desire to forgive OW. And it's really not bothering me. Granted it probably isn't helping me on my spiritual journey in this life. And you know when I told her I couldn't forgive her, but I didn't wish her any ill will? Well, I changed my mind." My shrink laughed at that. She must like my revenge fantasies too.

OK, I'm getting goofy now, but one more thing that's making me laugh, as I'm avoiding sleeping with H because I want to dump him tonight. I just realized that some MB member looking for answers, drawn to your subject line "WS's and pain, and how it applies in the recovery process" will eventually get to this part of the thread. They'll think "What happened to all the wisdom, the insight? What happened to that MB master, SD? That CV MBer has warped his mind! OK, I guess I have to go sleep with the FWS now. CV

Interesting question and responses.

However I can;t tell what my FWW is feeling because I'd need to be fricking psychic. She says NOTHING aintimate at all. Just sailing on thourgh her lovely life. Its like pulling a tooth for me to get anything out of her.

I wish she'd open up for HER sake mostly, not mine. * sigh *

Please BS's !

This is a very interesting topic. But we need the WS's to feel safe and share there inner thoughts and feelings here if we are to learn more. Do you think sharing your revange fantasies is the way for that to happen?

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: Frank57 ]</small>

Hi Frank! My apologies if I offended you in any way. SD and I go back to the beginning, that great old d-day, so we were just having some fun.

Some of my MB friends who have helped me the most have been FWSs. Many times over these months I have clarified, and offered apologies, that when I say something about FWS or the OW it has NOTHING to do with them. I respect the recovered WS greatly. And just so you know, I have been Plan Aing my butt off for months and treat my wayward H pretty darn good. When I vent about the A, FWS, or OW, it has to do with my own very personal little drama. I have a somewhat black, sick humor at times, and throughout this ordeal it has just helped me on the rollercoaster ride. I wish I could tell you that I will never, ever say anything not nice about the OW again, but I know I will. I really don't like her very much.

I really want to tell you I'll tone it down. OK, I'll try! That's the best I can do today. If you see my name maybe just avoid my posts. I can be very supportive, but I can never tell when the sick humor might come out. Anyway, sorry again! CV

SD- As a FWW, I can tell you that my emotions were in between feeling so horrible for my actions, and in the other end, I wanted to sweep everything under the rug and forget the affair, and everything would be perfect. Right after DD, I was very remorseful for what I did, but after I wanted my old life to be already there. But my husband kept on talking about the A. First couple of months I was really foggy, and I was not very cooperative with him. But now things are going much better, since I have opened up with him, and I am more receptive to his L-units! Before they were just falling into a hole! I think we could be better, if my husband had acted a bit different at the beginning. There were love busters all over the place!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But things are getting so much better. I know he loves me, and I love him and we are both trying to make it work.
But with no doubt, the pain of the BS has to be greater than the one of the WWs. Because in most cases of BS, they are dealing with true feelings, but the Affairs are usually based in such lies, and stupidities that we soon realized there was nothing there. We can put it behind our "pain" behind us so much faster. But I know it will take a long time for my husband to put this behind him,us <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .
And because of that the recovery takes such a long time, because their wound stays open, fresh, alive.
MYRTA

I want to hear more about the Obsession with the OW Syndrome. I thought I was the only one. I must confess, I have that diagnosis. Unfortunately, I've seen her twice in the past two weeks after not seeing her at all in a year.

She was in the line beside mine at Walmart. Looking back on the encounter, I was in so much shock that I must have stared her down. I'm not sure she knows me by signt. My friends say she does but she didn't act like it. She didn't seem like "all that" but she was terribly thin.... Oh well.

I declare this as being a syndrome. I need more helpful strategies than thinking positive thoughts..." she's not worth it", etc. I know all that but it doesn't seem to be helping.....

OK fellow OP SYNDROME SUFFERERS. Can we talk????

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>