Myrta... your actions and feelings seem to mirror those of my FWW. Finding MB and eliminating the LB's and beginning to fill my FWW's LB$ was critical in my efforts to stop the A, and begin recovery. The worst part was the withdrawal period, waiting for NC to "kick in" and for the feelings FWW had for OM to begin to fade. I had to dig deep inside myself to find the patience and love to endure the whole thing. Now, each day gets better, so I feel my efforts were done for the greater good, and certainly were not done in vain.

Mimi... There's not much I can add to my previous post, but I'm willing to bet Spider Slayer, HINY, CV55 and others will be here with better input than mine. You might just sit down and write everything you'd like to see happen to the OP, including things you'd like to do yourself, and "let it all out" in writing. Sometimes just doing that can be very therapudic. Save it, hide it, and return to it in 90 days, and see if your perspective has changed, or remained the same.

Always remember, you'll not be given a challenge greater than you are capable of handling.

Best wishes,
SD

Myrta, I have some questions for you and anyone else who wants to chime in. I am trying to reconcile with my WW but am having a difficult time. Some of the things she says, I just attribute them to fog, but wonder if she means them. Among these are the: "I love U, but not in Love w/U, I don't have any feelings for u, love, but like a brother, only reason she's here is for our son, etc." Sometimes I wonder to myself if she is even sorry for the A, or just sorry she got caught.

I really stay away from all A talk and most of the "our future" talk. Whenever those subjects come up we spiral out of control and argue. I figure, when she's ready, we'll talk.

On one hand, the feeling I get from my WW is cold, distant. She is living at her parents right now (2 mths) but has made a promise to move back home (w/in 2 wks?). Our days consist of me picking up our son from daycare, she stops by our house after work, picks up clothes, son, and leaves. She spends some time w/me, though much is silent. I tried to just have a conversation about her day w/her last night, she asked me "Are U trying to have a conversation w/me?", rather rudely. This was one of the things that came out in MC, I didn't talk to her, pay attention. In fact most everything that was said in MC, my deficiencies, I have been working on, but she just shuts me down.

On the other hand, I can absolutely confirm NC with OM (have good proof) for about 3 wks now (for a month after Dday she continued to talk to OM behind my back til I found out). She has stopped going out and partying with her friends like she did all summer. She comes by the house and cleans as though she is preparing to return home (We are/were in the middle of messy remodel due to water pipe break when Dday occured, house completion coincides with her projected return). When she talks to me, at times, there is an assumed future (We were discussing my parents & our son. She said "until we have more kids, this is their only grandchild.") but then she tells me, I don't know (about our future). We are in MC, both together and individual sessions. She seems to be doing the things, on the outside, to work out our M. But on the inside, I don't know, she just doesn't open up and let me in.

When I say "I know we can work this out" she gets mad, calls me a know-it-all. I reply that, no I don't know the future, but I believe, that's why I'm here. From our talks, she has told me she is scared because she doesn't know the future, almost afraid to love me because she doesn't want to hurt me again. She holds onto what I said on Dday, and uses it against me (I said some very hurtful things, heck, I just caught her having an A, what did she expect, I was furious).

This is a snapshot background of where we are at. My questions are, did you feel the same things as my WW? How did you progress? Where do you think she is at, from the perspective of a W? I want to know what she is going through, so I can understand her better and though I know your opinion here is not going to be exact, it could help give me some insight. From what I can gather it is withdrawal and the fog is meant to push me away and justify her actions. Am I close here?

I am now just Plan A'ing and avoiding all LB's. I have to admit this has helped me. To have a course of action seems to empower me whereas before I was spinning out of control. I am just trying to have patience, but is so hard when hurt by the one you love and that person is really the only one who can ease your pain, it seems.

Bear

Everything you've described is typical. Withdrawal is taking place, and they're just as fogged now as they were a few days before D-Day, but in another way. They are lost, they are evaluating the damage, they miss contact with OP, they fear returning to their spouse. It's more than they can process all at once.

Withdrawal will take up to 6 months, so you best remember you are not in a sprint, you are in a marathon. Measure progress by months, not weeks or days. The changes you see in her will be slight, at best. But know you need to continue in Plan A during this time, and apologize for all you said in the heat of the moment and thereafter when the confrontations about the affair were done.

Keep things light, and let her get used to the fact you are a safe place for her to "land". She's been in another world for a while, and it will take time for her to adjust. I would volunteer to make MC appointments and ask if she will join you.

Don't smother or pressure her for positive actions right now, as she's not capable of delivering. Time is on your side. Allow her to move back in, and care deeply for her, and give her a safe and nonjudgemental place to open up to you. WS's are extremely defensive, and perceive all R talks as you "throwing it in their face". This will continue for quite some time.... months.

Stay on course, post here for support, vent here for your mental health, check into AD's if you're not already on them, and follow the MB plan. It works.

SD

Thanks, you just confirmed what I had been thinking. Need that from time to time. The hardest part is not knowing. I will say that 10 years together is a lot of history. And it feels like she just wants to slide right back into the M. I pray it all works out. This place really helps a lot. This and my BIL help alot.

Apologies for my words after Dday have been made. I don't think she believes me. Funny how things get turned around. Oh well, she'll believe them some day, for now I just have to show her.

BEAR04---Your wife is still not thinking clearly at this point, I wasn't, just 2 mos.after. She believes that she does not feel love for you, but its just a temporary confussion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . She feels she is not in love with you, but I am sure, she will eventually regain the love for you. My DD was on June 1 of this year, and just now I am starting to feel for my husband the love that was there before the affair. I also did not want to talk with my husband at the beginning, I was secretive of my thoughts, I did not want to share them with him,they were only mine. But as time is going by I open more and more to him. I am more receptive to him, to his love,to his touch. Just give her time, time for her to sort herself, at the beginning also I was relief that it was out in the open, but at the same time I was angry because I wanted to continue! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Thank God those feelings are not there anymore. They are scary feelings to have!
Good luck with your wife. I am sure she will come around and be loving to you.
MYRTA

myrta,

Very honest and insightful. Thanks for your post.

SD

Myrta, here is an update through last night. My W went to see IC last eve. I watched our S out at her Ps house. Anyway, she got home, asked how he was, seemed in a good mood. When i went to leave, said my good buys, told them to have a good night, the response I got was cold. She said something to me (exact words I cannot remember) that I should quit feeling sorry for myself. I didn't think I was. I told her, of course I wasn't happy to be leaving them. Told her I was sorry if she felt that way. She said, Stop It, you're always apologizing. She proceeded to tell me that I think i know everything (again) that I read these books and I think I know it all. I was a little blindsided. 1st I never talk to her about MB, but I know someone that I did mention it to, in confidence I thought. That she isn't sure she wants to come back, ever. I did not want a confrontation, I did not LB, I didn't even really know what to say. I knew that there was no way to convince her of anything. I just asked her why she thought "I knew everything". She said I had always been like that. I said we had been together for 10 years, married 4, she knew that about me then, is it that huge of a problem now? I also said that I don't know everything, I am lost, I read things to try to help me understand because I don't know anything right now, I have no answers, I have no idea what's going on or how to repair it.

She then jumped on me about trying to rebuild our R, that maybe she didn't want to rebuild it.

I am chalking this up to fog. She had just been at IC, maybe she just wanted to vent on me. I don't know, but it still hurts.

This all happened on a night where I found out that the woman I have been in a R w/ for 10 yrs cheated on me 5 times prior to M, and the 1 affair, that I know of, since M. She has a pretty promiscuous past that I really didn't know the depths of. She had kept this secret from me. I have known this person 1/3 of my life, practically all of my adult life. Needless to say I was a little rattled last night and still didn't LB. I really wonder if it's worth it for this. These past incidents help me to explain now, and maybe the future. I think she just can't commit to one man.

Ok, there's my vent, any comments?

bear,

I know this is a really tough time. Nothing is certain. What I also know, is Withdrawal is tough. WS's are faced with many truths, and their behavior is bizarre. She may be on the fence, and trying to justify her next move. She's rewritten history, and you are the "bad" guy, and to justify this fact to herself, she may display total arrogance, act snippy, say mean, even hateful things TO PROVOKE NEGATIVE REPONSES FROM YOU. This "proves" to her, you are the greater of the evils.

This is where Plan A really works. Become a little independent. Treat her with "measured indifference". Go and do things that are a part of you, and important to you. Improve yourself and grow as a human being. Don't let her believe you are pining away, agonizing over the thought of losing her, even though you may feel that way).

Show her you are strong enough as an individual to survive this, with her, or without her. But be ever ready to be receptive to her desire to speak honestly and openly with you.

Best wishes
SD

And when she tries to pin me into a corner and pick a verbal fight. How do I respond in a way that is assertive, not apologetic, and yet not an LB? How do i handle the verbal assault? I've tried some reverse babble, didn't work to well for me. Is just walking away OK, or is that running from the problem?

I used to be very sure of myself. I could take charge of things, make good, quick decisions. Now I question everything and sound like a spineless, whiny whimp. Part of what I hear from her is her telling me to have a spine, stand up to her, don't take her sh*t. Would love to, but I don't want to sink to a level and not be able to come back from it.

I think that this may fit under this topic.

Yesterday, I put a recorder in WW car. She met OM and got in the car w/her. I then heard some moaning from both. At first I thought that they were having S. So I jump up, run into the room, turned on light, woke her up and continued to ask her "did you have sex w/him today". She denied and denied. (She was suposed to be in NC) After a lot of screaming on my part she addited to making out w/OM. And I had to reveal my sources to prove to her that I knew she was lying and I made her listen to it. She still denied having S. After listening to it today I know they did't.

After all this she said that she is going to end it today while I am listening(haven't heard for yet though). She says she is trying and she feels bad when they are not in contact, but after they are she feels horrible.

Anyway, I want to know if I will ever get those sounds out of my head. And unfortunatly, some others here may have had visual experiences.

I know it may hamper recovery and would like to know how to handle it.

Visual memories. Yeah, that's me. Didn't catch them "in the act" but found W there in precarious state of dress. Those noises will go away, my visions are. It takes time and strength. I know what would really help ease it though, repentance and acceptance from my WW.

Bear, luckily my H was never disrespectful after d-day. He felt huge remorse, but also went through huge withdrawal. Anyway, if your W wants to pick a fight with you maybe you could consider the following. "W, I love you and want to recover and have a good M with you. I am willing to work with you to get our M back. I am not willing to be verbally attacked. I am feeling that way now. I'd love to have a conversation with you later if we can talk in a respectful way to each other." Period! Communication isn't always going to be perfect. However, it shouldn't be crappy the majority of times.

Frankly, when my H would let me see how he was pining for the OW (I would usually force his feelings out of him), sometimes I'd get so POed I'd tell him if their R was so wonderful maybe he should go to her. I wouldn't recommend this. It's not very MB-like, however it actually worked for me. It wasn't a game, I think I really meant it. Bottom line is, if you don't want to be a doormat then don't allow her to treat you like one. CV

Bear, I think you are right, If she showed me convincingly I know I woud forget. And I told her that I need her to try. That we need to WORK on fixing everything(M). She appears to agree.

We'll see!

SoNumb

Read Surviving an Affair, and learn HOW to confront, without emotion, respectfully, and without LoveBuster's. Doing things by the "book" will save you time, and wasted effort. Read CV's responses on how to deal with angry outbursts or disrespectful judgements. Turn it all around and place it in the WS's lap. Do it with respect. Truth and respectful conversation breaks up the fog.

SD

Thanks everyone. I am so struggling with what to say, how to react to attacks without it turning into a bruhaha. I just got back from an IC session. Feeling about 90% better than this morning. Someone to just tell every single feeling to, holding nothing back, and not having to worry about WW hearing it secondhand. Oh relief. This has given me the strength to get through another week or two.

Funny, i told her about everything W says to me, etc. and the look of suprise on her face was, well, revealing. My W saw the same MC yesterday (we go to I & J sessions) and I could tell she wasn't getting the whole story. She can't say anything to me, but I could tell by her follow up questions, facial expression, etc.

Worries me my W won't even be truthful w/our MC. That is really the only way to get anything out of it. I am getting that book and learning how to do this the proper way. Thanks.

bear

I blundered without direction from September 03 until I found MB in Dec 03, and made soooo many mistakes. Had I found MB, and read SAA, I could have saved 3 months of acting like an idiot, and sped up the whole process of getting into recovery.

For the record, my FWW lied bold-faced to the MC from Sep 03 till Feb 04. Affairs are powerful drugs, and make good people do horrible things, to themselves, and to others.

You are now on the right path. Continue with hope and perseverance.

SD

Thanks SD. I don't think WW will be able to bs the MC on her visit next week. I told her everything about our past and present (at least from my perspective but backed up with facts and word for word conversations). She told me at the end of the session that she was going to dig deeper into our lives (good). She also reminded me that though an affair is the absolute worst thing to do to a spouse and worst way to deal w/marrital problems that I still need to take responsibility for the state of our M. I agree. It takes two to make a marriage and it takes two to break a marriage.

The only point we differ on is the OM. I tend to subscribe to the Bob Pure theory, if you've read any of his posts (Bob you are not alone thinking this way). I want a pound of the OMs flesh. I know this is contrary to what is said around here but i to was raised a certain way. People and cultures are different. My thinking is I have suffered pain, my W is in pain, my child is in pain, and OM, being single, gets to go on his merry way leaving a path of destruction that he helped create behind. My MC wanted me to consider him a victim as well. he is not, he is a predator. I know him, he was an acquaintance, and he would not hesitate to do it to some other family. He won't have to explain to my son 10 yrs from now (if all goes wrong) why mommy & daddy are seperated. he won't have to deal with the behaviorial problems, alcoholism, drug addiction, depression that my son is now statistically a higher risk to sucumb to if we can't put our M back together.

If our M is saved, I will do nothing. If it is wrecked, someday everybody has got to pay. My family has, has he?

I apologize for hijacking this thread. I would like to get back on topic. Simply put, it takes two to save a M. We as BS, being here, are taking steps to save that M. I absolutely applaud all WS that I have seen on this board. By being here, learning, growing, you too are taking steps to save your M. That takes a lot of guts.

I wish my WS would take these steps, sadly she is not. Though she is not continuing on with the A (to my knowledge) and is actively going to MC she is not "going out of her way" and jumping whole heartedly into the rebuilding process. Though that is what I want, I have learned so much from FWW, like Myrta, who has helped me greatly, about what she is going through and I am able to understand better, see the reasons why, and learned to be patient. Without MB I probably would have ruined any chance w/her by now. Thank you.

bear

You'll see a lot of posts here from people who refuse, for whatever reason, to "buy" into the MB program. You can tell they haven't read around the site at all, much less read the book, SAA.

A BS's first response is righteous indignation, then anger, including thoughts of seeking revenge. A's are a two way street, and any thought you have towards the OM or OW can as easily be directed at your Wayward Spouse.

The work, and I do mean work, that it takes to survive an affair falls 100% on the shoulders of the BS in many, many instances. The WS's are in la-la land, their brains totally impaired to rational thinking. Many people who find this site are either unaware of the huge committment a BS must make to shoulder the load of saving a marriage, or are unwilling to do so.

A wiser poster than I once stated, "do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?"

As I've stated before, this philosophy works, but the BS has to be in charge of understanding how it works, and how to implement the plan. Failure on either point prolongs the process leading to Recovery.

Best wishes, bear! It sounds like you are ready to jump on the band wagon. I wish you every success.

SD

Well said SD.

But I feel the same way as Bear and I told my WW last night (She said she ended it today. Again) If I ever see OM, I will hurt him. If I go to jail for a night or so, I tell you what, you will see me smiling. Whether M works or not. OM (single) has totally disrepected me and my family, and unfortunately my wife can't see that right now. I pray to God she will one day. She says if I do that she will kick me out; we'll see.

Bear, one more thing...

Do your best to show that you are confident. Women are attracted to that. Being depressed and down, does't help them to look at you in a better light it makes it worse.

My WW said that I make her feel bad when I am like that. And I have noticed that when I am confident, she notices and likes it. But believe me I know its hard, and I have a hard time doing it myself.

What we really need from this site, is help boosting ourselves up, so we can feel better around WS. And I really don't think we should show too much interest in them, it smothers them. We need to back off a little or maybe a lot, and I am not talking about doing any LB either. Just don't kiss but and don't look pathetic and needy.

Maybe we need a topic on this.