I here you there. We do need a thread on that. Actually, isn't that kinda what plan A is all about.

I will tell you why this is difficult, about a 1 1/2 weeks ago, I was having a good day. Working around the house, getting some projects done. W is upstairs cleaning out a closet, filled with pictures, old BDay/Vday/Anniversary cards and stuff. You know, memory stuff.

So I'm in a pretty good mood, confident, not stuck in the rut. The end of the day, she goes on an absolute verbal assault that I touched off by asking if she was upset with me because she had just given me an ice cold look filled with daggers.

One of the things she was p*ssed about is how I acted that day with all this stuff going on. All I had heard from until then is how all I do is mope around. Truth is I don't mope around, or try not to, I get upset when she takes my S and goes back to her P's house for the night. Who wouldn't?

Here's a follow up, BIL calls me on the way to work this AM. Tells me how W and FIL got into it last night. Been 2 months since Dday and he is getting a little sick of her moping around his house, not dealing with M problems. I think he might have even told W that she is close to wearing out welcome and she needs to get act together and come home.

I don't really know if this helps, but, about time someone in her family said something about this.

Point is being up and confident and sure can really tick them off as well. Sometimes there is no good way to act, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I don't know if you were ignoring her, but if so, that is why she got mad. But if you weren't ignoring her, the more than likely she was mad b/c she is not controlling you like she wants and was fearing that you might not want her anymore. Remember they are in some crazy state of mind right now; don't entertain their outbursts.

Everytime, I it appeared that I was going to move on, she didn't like that at all and pulled me back(that was my mistake coming back under her control) They may not want us right now, but they don't want anyone else having us either.

I have heard the 'moping around' comments plenty of times. And that is an emotion that we really need to control and hide.

Try a little to play hard to get. My WW has asked me to do that before.

When you chase love it runs away, when you run away from love it chases you.

Bear

You ARE getting the hang of this. When I finally came to grips with what Plan A really meant, I turned it all into a "game" for myself. I made up my mind that my FWW was an alien, in most of her behavior. Each time I saw her in that "mood", I emotionally detached, and treated her like someone I'd never met, never known, never had any emotional investment in, and whose behavior could not negatively impact me in any way. It only took me a few days to "master" my approach.

I used the Golden Rule. I treated her as well as I would have been expected to be treated under all circumstances. I masked my hurt, grief, anger, frustrations, and took them elsewhere to vent. My FWW saw the perfectly charming guy, standing where an angry, profanity spewing, disrespectful and discourteous man used to stand. In addition the NEW guy she saw did at least 1/2 laundry, most of the dishes, some cooking, all the vaccuuming and cleaned tubs, toilets and sinks. (This is one of the EN's I never met before, my share of the "household" responsibilities) All of this, I continue to this day.

Part of the anger you see when you do this is a total LACK of reason to BLAME YOU for her looking to the OP. Before Plan A, they justified their actions based on your "old" actions. With the new Plan A you, Mr. Perfect, they cannot blame you and justify their actions because of your behaviour! It's like a little miracle. The longer you sustain it the more it drives them crazy. It makes them start doubting why they would act in such a way to jeopardize losing "all that".

One big important fact, though, your changes must be permanent. You can't bait and switch back to the old you, or the WS will return to their old ways, too.

You are picking up on this really quickly. Remember, don't get impatient. Marathon vs. sprint. Measure succes in months, not weeks or days. If you can get her home, and have simple, inexpensive dates, without being compelled to have relationship talks every 15 minutes, your Plan A will have more effect. Promise her to set aside one day a week, and one hour on that day, to talk about the relationship. If anyone gets agitated, call a time out, and reschedule for an hour later. Or two. You get the point.

I have good feelings for your chances of getting through all this.

SD

Well thanks, that's good news. I think her outburst that night had to do with something I put in that post. She had spent all day cleaning a closet filled with cards from Vday, Bday, etc. in each one was written "Love Always". I think that was probably a trigger. It blew her notion that I never showed her any love/affection. Not saying i didn't show enough, but there was the evidence right in front of her, with a memory attached. Can't revise that history.

Yes, i am seeing this as a game, albeit a very high stakes one. I have told myself I am in control, of my actions at least, and I am choosing the turf that we are playing on.

One thing I do though is intentionally not be Mr. Perfect. She has commented over and over how I am "so perfect, I never make a mistake". I don't want her to develop some sort of inferiority complex and give up thinking she is not good enough for me. She has already commented such and also said she doesn't deserve my love. I don't screw up on big things (LBs), rather I make little mistakes. Such as yesterday, our 2yr old had Spaghetti Os for dinner. (I get home from work 1st and feed him, always have) I changed his shirt, put it down by the washer and set it next to the pretreater. Now I knew I could apply the pretreater right then, but I didn't. Instead, when she got home from work I asked her for help to make sure i was doing it right. Mind you I have done little laundry in our M, though i am perfectly capable and know how (just a few things when i needed to). She said, of course, "you never did this before" I replied, I know but thought it would help out a bit when she had to work late, take a little stress off her day, blah,blah,blah. I was also, at that point, asking permission to step in and assume more responsibility rather than taking it from her and, maybe, her resenting me for that. Don't want to be to over the top. I have no problem pitching in more. i do a lot of things round here, but would take on more to make things better.

So I do show her faults (perceived or otherwise)that I have, things she can help me with, hopefully showing her we're a team and need each other. Just a little thing, but each little one adds up. Just like each little bad thing added up so that we are where we are today.

Oh SD here is more info for you about our M and household roles before the A. Here are the things I did.

All remodeling projects. Painting, refinishing hardwood floors throughout house+woodwork. New flooring. You name it. We've had many.
All outdoor work including total landscape of our yard, fenced in backyard for our S to play in.
Woke S in morn, dressed took to daycare.
Pickup S from daycare. Take care of supper.
Most of the time give him bath at night.
All cooking. At least half of grocery shopping.
Some laundry.
A little of the cleaning.
Responsible for majority of bills in the house.

Our problems had nothing to do with my lack of helping out, like other M may have experienced. Rather it was the lack of attention i gave her. She probably thought I cared more about the yard than I did about her (not true). Another thing, at the end of the day I was plumb wore out so I didn't have the energy and thought I was doing everything around here, what was W doing?

I still feel that way, she is not here, yet I keep things running plus completing a kitchen remodel after a water pipe break. She says she'll come back when it's finished. Too much stress and disorder. i have forsaken sleep, staying up on average til about 2 for about two weeks now finishing all the painting trim work, etc. as well as coordinating with contractor to get things done. All this on top of dealing with A and M problems. Not complaining because without this work i would have gone mad during this time, but I don't at all feel appreciated for the things I have done and do.

Maybe I shouldn't assume more roles, though I want to so I can make things easier on her, and so they'll get done. Here is where i am at a loss. Defining roles in a marriage, especially when you have kids (not S fault, but this is where our problems started, according to her, when S was about 1 yr old).

Plan A huh, about the only thing I can add to plan A that I don't already do is not get into LBing fights and not bring up A every 5 minutes. She won't let me show affection, attention and conversation as of now. Still in withdrawal.

It's now 12:30AM here and I am taking a break from washing all the dishes and putting them back into our new cabinets. I reread this post and see her major responsibilities include wash and cleaning. Well the laundry is pile high and the house is a mess. it's OK to LB here though, right, better than w/W. Taker,taker coming out. This turned into a vent, sorry, needed to get it out.

If I need to be the glue to hold this M together, so be it. I love my W and family. Over time (after rereading this post) we are going to have have a discussion about defining our roles in this M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>But that raises questions for me. What is the source of the pain? Is it the loss of the "soulmate"? Is it the loss of self respect? Is it because I interrupted the A? It is the loss of innocence in the M? How much of the pain is caused by anger for having the "love" in the A left to be unrequieted?

Rather, is the pain caused by their realization of the damage they have committed to their M? It is pain for deceiving their spouse and children, friends, relatives, not to mention themselves? Is it pain from having to face these people after forsaking them to whatever extent during the A? It is pain for forsaking vows, and their promise before their God?

These questions are in every BS's mind.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shattered dreams,

The source of a FWS’s pain is a mix of all the things you've said above. It’s a loss of the “soulmate”, loss of self respect, guilt, shame etc. etc.

I haven’t yet read the responses to this thread, but I want to give you a quote from a post I’ve send while I was in early recovery (I've posted it during January 2003). I hope it will help to give some insight and answer some of your questions:

I think the biggest lesson I’ve learned from all of this is that you can’t judge another until you have walked in the same shoes as them and have done the same mistakes… Before what happened to me, I was very judgmental towards people who allowed themselves into situations like this, I NEVER thought something like this would EVER happen to me, but now I can better understand and have empathy for the feelings/pain of people who have been in similar situations. This can happen to everyone if not cautious and careful! The best is to avoid any close opposite sex friendships.

Yes, to have an EA/improper friendship is VERY WRONG, but before you’ve not been in the same situation, you can’t fully understand the emptiness, the pain, the loss, the grief, the guilt and all the emotions involved for WS's trying to recover from the consequences of having an EA/improper friendship and also from missing the OP/EA/friendship. In my situation I know the feelings I've had have been WRONG but it was the huge sense of loss for the OM and for this fantasy-type friendship, which have been very difficult for me to recover from (and I’m still in recovery). It was and sometimes is still very hard for me to accept the fact that maybe this friendship was based on all kinds of false pretenses and lies from the OM’s side all along and that maybe he was only pretending to be a trusting and caring friend and Christian (like he said he was). This was the hardest part for me…

Sometimes I still have so many questions, but I know I must just totally forget about everything and get it behind and over with for good. It’s just difficult sometimes. The loss of this close friend who appeared to understand me and listen so well and appeared to really have my best interest at heart, my ‘soul mate’, now seem like someone who was only ‘playing games’ on me all the time and this is very hard to accept and elaborate. To let go of the resentment and get over it, is the right and proper thing to do, I know, but it is not all that easy – it takes time and hard work on myself and focus on my H and M. I also learned to appreciate my H more than ever. He is the one with the really good qualities and the one who really cares for me and love me and whom I can trust.

Maybe I "deserved" the pain I have been going through, because like ‘legalette’ said in her response yesterday: “…you may have been somewhat naive, and I really do think that on some level you knew that what you were doing was wrong…” Yes, she is right, deep down while I was having this friendship it felt very wrong sometimes, especially when the friendship and feelings became inappropriate but at the time I was already addicted to this OM/friendship. The fact is, the pain “deserved” is real, and the healing to some extent really takes time. And at the same time, through your pain and grief, you must also put your focus on your H and M, take responsibility for your actions and also put yourself in your H (BS) shoes in order to fully understand the effect this had on him and the pain you've caused him… Sometimes it can be very hard and difficult trying to recover from the emotions on both sides of the coin: On the one side recovering from your own pain and loss and on the other side to deal with the pain you've caused your H and work on that.

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

I want to add something after I’ve read Bear04’s post to Myrta.

I think a lot of FWS’s in recovery have the wrong idea about love in a M.

A while ago, I’ve read the following on a website link:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Falling in love is obviously not confined to infidelity. Most contemporary marriages start out with romantic love. But, therapists say, couples have to grow up and understand that "feelings of love are neither steady nor constant but travel in natural cycles," as Abrahms Spring puts it. "If your relationship doesn't live up to your ideas about love, the problem may be not with your relationship but with your ideas," she writes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People and especially WS’s often confuse real, stable & mature love (which can only be obtained through a long, committed relationship like a M) with the first stages of immature, puppy love when people “fall” in love and when hormones and chemicals are running high… These are 2 completely different types of love (mature & immature) and many people often expect to always have those “in love” feelings for their partner. They think something is wrong with the M if those euphoric feelings wears off… When the WS then get involved with someone else and experience those early stages of love & feelings again, they start to say to their spouses: “I love you, but I’m not in love with you”. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I thought the same thing after my EA ended, but I have learned and grown and realized that I was indeed “in love” with my H, but in a more mature way.

To explain this better: Dr Phil once said there is a difference between “falling” in love and “being” in love... He said spouses don’t stop to love each other, but instead, love transforms and develops into something more mature and stable. To use his exact words: The partner in a long & committed R became “the soft place to fall”. This is so true. My H is indeed my soft place to fall… He is the only one who knows ALL about me – he knows all my strengths & weaknesses, he knows the beautiful parts about me and the ugly parts; he knows me on by “down” days and my “good” days – but he still loves me and excepts me just the way I am, with ALL my faults and flaws. This is wonderful and in some time during recovery most FWS’s will realize this!

I hope this post was not off topic.

Suzet

Suzet:

Thank you so much for help in understanding WSes. Please continue to post here when you have thoughts that you think might be helpful.

Not at all off topic, thanks.

Suzet

How would you like to tackle the topic of why a WS is so reluctant, and finds it so difficult to talk about all those feelings to the BS.

The BS has a million questions, and the WS typically wants to "forget it" and move on.

This compartmentalizing by the WS, and reluctance or outright refusal to express those thoughts and feelings is a major hurdle for the BS in feeling safe and comfortable in efforts to recover.

I have my thoughts on the topic, but I'd rather hear yours. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>This compartmentalizing by the WS, and reluctance or outright refusal to express those thoughts and feelings is a major hurdle for the BS in feeling safe and comfortable in efforts to recover.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shattered dreams, I experienced the opposite while I was in withdrawal and early recovery. I SO wanted to share my thoughts and feelings with my H at the time, but my H was the one who didn’t want to know all these things and just wanted to move on. As a result, I never shared everything and all my thoughts and feelings with my H... This was difficult for me since I’m the type of person who needs to talk about my thoughts and feelings to get it out and recover. Communication and total honesty and openness is one of my top Emotional Needs in my M. I don’ have time to go into detail now, but please read this thread: Question regarding openness and honesty in my M to have a full understanding.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> How would you like to tackle the topic of why a WS is so reluctant, and finds it so difficult to talk about all those feelings to the BS.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shattered dreams, in general, I think the main reason FWS’s are so reluctant to talk about those feelings, is because they don’t want to be a further source of pain to their BS’s - they’re afraid they will cause further hurt and pain to their BS’s by sharing those things. Further, FWS’s experience a lot of guilt and shame and this is the other reason they feel so reluctant to share. They make themselves very vulnerable by sharing those things and before they will share, they must feel safe to do so.

Hope this could help!

Suzet

Interesting discussion. Right now, H and I are stuck on just this issue - nearly 2.5 years after d-day.


Suzet, you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They make themselves very vulnerable by sharing those things and before they will share, they must feel safe to do so.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H and I are at an impasse. He says he can't talk to me about himself or the As, because I'm 'not a safe place' to talk. And he's right. I'm not a safe place to talk because he's not a safe place to hurt. The last two years have taught me that, when I hurt and express pain, he feels rejected and gets mad. He has not ever been able to comfort me through an episode of pain. Somehow, he seems to expect me to listen to him with a therapist's detachment. He gives me 'honesty' and truth that cuts like a knife (expressions of admiration and passion for an OW seem just a little tactless to me). At times I feel that I'm being used as some kind of outlet for his sadistic needs.

So I guess my question to you guys is this: how does the WS in your marriage handle the BS's pain? Does the WS act with compassion and gentleness when being 'honest'? Is it requisite for the WS to be able to do this before the BS can 'hear'?

TA

Suzet, beautiful stuff and very helpful.

SD, fine work as always.

TogetherAlone, you have an opportunity here that most don't. Try to rethink your position and let H talk to you. Most of us would so welcome this opportunity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> TogetherAlone, you have an opportunity here that most don't. Try to rethink your position and let H talk to you. Most of us would so welcome this opportunity.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOE, many have expressed that opinion. But it IS a double-edged sword.

For more than a year after d-day, I listened to H for hour upon hour. Unlike most WS's, H was desperate to fill me in about what he'd done, where he'd been, about the OWs...everything. But it became clear that he couldn't bear any reaction from me. If I told him that I hurt about any of it, he would get angry and blaming that I was 'rejecting' him. I learned to keep my reaction out of the moment, to listen without comment...but the hurt was still there, and if I brought it up gently at a later date, he'd then be angry that I'd been 'lying' to him about being OK with what he'd told me. So I'm 'rejecting' if I tell him immediately that something hurts, and I'm two-faced if I don't express it at the time.

On d-day, it became clear that H was trying to work out whether to leave me for SOW. I gathered that he didn't want to leave me, but felt that he had somehow committed to SOW, and was trying to evaluate the quality of a future life with her. In fact, I got the impression that a large part of the reason for him confessing was in order to get me to help him come to a decision. Listening to your H tell you that he is really happy with someone else, that in lots of ways it's better than with you, but that she's too old to have kids and their future would be a little empty, and that SOW's busy diary might leave him lonely and neglected, and he'd miss his children, and that the new couple wouldn't have much money, but that SOW wouldn't face up to practicalities like that, and that sex is better with you and he'd miss that, and that he'd like to stay friends and sex-buddies with you but fears that wouldn't be acceptable, that he couldn't live without her, but would miss you after all this time, that he feels a sense of loyalty to you as you've borne his children, that she can't cook and he'd miss your wonderful cooking, but that she's exciting and adventurous and life with you and the kids is a little dull...yada, yada, yada..is tough.

OK, fog talk, yes? You pick out the positives and you make note of the useful information about what has been lacking in the marriage. You feel hurt about how poorly he compares you to SOW, but you assume that,once he's defogged, he'll be horrified by what he's said and will apologise to you. You're prepared to go to MC and see if the holes the marriage can be fixed.

You do that for a month, three months, six months. But he's still in phone contact with SOW and 'needs her'. You're still listening and what you're hearing is a man trying to get the best possible deal for himself, reacting with hostility if it's pointed out that other parties have needs of their own. And you begin to recognise that, in doing all this listening, you're being used, that you're gradually allowing yourself to be destroyed,and that all of this is being done in the name of Absolute Honesty. It's not honesty in the moral sense of the word - it's ritual confession in order to get bad stuff off your conscience. My role in this was to provide God-like acceptance and absolution. If I showed my hurt, that made him feel bad,and wasn't allowed.

I have learned HUGE amounts about my H, through all that listening. But he hasn't learned anything about me, because what I feel about things doesn't seem to matter.

Be careful what you wish for.

TA

TogetherAlone, you have provided so much insight that it makes my comment to you seem so insensitive. For assuming that the company policy fits all, I apologize.

I suppose I am living a life very close to what you have described. Also M 19 yrs and 3 children. Huge difference is my W never considered leaving me but almost 3 years after d-day she can't imagine a life without OM in it. So we go round and round about contact and what constitutes an EA etc. But the part you described that rings so true is listening to all your shortcomings and NEVER being able to verbalize the slightest dissappointment from your perspective. If I was reasonably self assured my W would have me believe I ought to be saying novena's that she's still with me. She recently said that sex is boring with me, but never stops to consider that she could have some role in spicing it up. I don't know if it's fog or just selfishness but I hang in there waiting for the "old person" to return. What I'm trying to say is that I do now better understand why you feel the way you do. Less, is more when the conversations take this direction.

What I am wishing for is not to endure endless verbal assaults but rather to try to let W understand that I am capable of forgiving and that everything I do isn't in an effort to rub her face in it so to say. I suppose my moniker says it all. It still seems like tap dancing around the pink elephant. Thanks for your eloquent response.

TOGETHER:

Has your FWH done a NC letter? I may have missed that in your story. I was wondering if the intensity of your continued pain has to do with not being clear that he is absolutely finished with the OW FOR LIFE.

There is a SENSE OF CLOSURE that I can go back to when I am feeling my pian.

Also, I want to share that my FWH has reported the same as SUZET. He has not wanted to share because of his fear of hurting me more. He insists that there are certain things that I don't need to know. I believe that to a certain extent. I have faith in him enough now in our recovery that he did enough AWFUL things that I know about that there are more AWFUL things that I do not need to know.

I've really found it helpful to focus on the PRESENT, filling our days with enough NEW EXPERIENCES to try to cancel out the past. We arrange new experiences that I know he did not share with the OW.

Together Alone

I don't know if this will help, but I'll offer it anyway.

On D-Day, I gave FWW a choice, stay in the marriage or get out and go make her life with the "soulmate". She was totally fogged, and totally "in love" with the OM.

It was clear to me after a week that she hadn't "stayed" in the marriage for me, at all. She stayed , in my mind, for all the wrong reasons. She was terrifed of what "people would think". She was fearful of the impact on our three boys. She knew, as did I, that we'd be financially devastated by seperation or divorce. She stayed because her Christian beliefs told her Divorce was a bad thing. In short, separation would have exposed her for what she was, an adultress. She couldn't face living with that label. With all that being said, I did not "expose" the A properly, by MB standards, because I didn't find MB until 3 months after D-Day. At any rate, she "chose" to stay.

I felt nothing from her. No sorrow, no guilt, no remorse, nothing. Semi-peaceful co-existance went on for several months. I continued to hammer her with Plan A, regardless. I continued to improve myself and what I brought to the marriage. I learned to emotionally detach from her foggy moments, and statements and actions, and not let them upset me. I treated her with love, respect and kindness. I employed some of Orchid's reverse babble techniques, which both infuriated her, and confused her. But I was so dedicated to the cause (Plan A) that it continued to break down the barriers she had constructed around her.

Now I have posted here before that the success I had could not be measured in days or weeks. I began to realize this was truly a marathon, and it would take a long time for her feelings for the OM to subside. And it did. It took a full 6 months of withdrawal before I could see her coming around, about 4 months after her last phone contact with OM. I measure success now, only in months. It is such a slow process, it's hard to notice the changes until after they've occurred.

This last weekend, I noticed she has become more proactive in being a contributor to a positive marriage, this being 14 months after D-day and 9 months after NC was established.

Plan A is not for wimps. It takes every ounce of your being to understand it, implement it, and make it work. You have to believe in it, and stick to it, or it has a very good chance at failure. It sets the WS up for Plan B, if you have a cake eater on your hands. But if done properly, it works.

This process is a marathon, not a sprint. If you are looking for overnight success, you are setting yourself up for failure. You need to learn to spot the "positives" and feed them and let them grow. You need to counter the negatives with positive thoughts and actions. You have to have faith in your efforts. It's a very difficult process, but, at least for me, it's developing into a marriage that far exceeds the one we had "before".

I hope this gives you some perspective, and some hope.

Best wishes
SD

SD. Please keep saying it's a marathon not a sprint, I need to be reminded. I am doing better, at least now I think before I speak. I avoid LBs (though some still slip, at least they aren't major ones) much more than I used to.

Every time I read one of your posts it refocuses me, thanks. My only fear, and BIG question for you. Your recovery has taken a length of time, 6 months of withdrawal, 14 months since Dday, my W told me yesterday that she won't put in 6 months to see if her "feelings" return. Well, she is still in the fog/withdrawal and I don't take everything she says like that at face value, but it still worries me that she may not be willing to put in the time/effort. Was your WS the same way? I assume it gets to be a progression, the WS sticks around as they start to feel better and they want to see what is down the road.

Think of her as frozen in a huge block of ice, and your warmth and love will slowly melt the ice away, and the woman you knew and loved will slowly emerge.

It'a a sight to behold! Patience required!

SD

Nice analogy. I can see it. Plus, I guess a frozen block of ice isn't going anywhere.