</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This process is a marathon, not a sprint. If you are looking for overnight success, you are setting yourself up for failure. You need to learn to spot the "positives" and feed them and let them grow. You need to counter the negatives with positive thoughts and actions. You have to have faith in your efforts. It's a very difficult process, but, at least for me, it's developing into a marriage that far exceeds the one we had "before".

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW! I agree with this totally. It's as if I said it myself. It's amazing how our experiences and beliefs are so alike on this forum.

Wow, I hadn't expected so much insightful feedback. Thanks, guys.

WOE, I always smile at your 'name'. It seems to sum up my life...and I think there comes a point where you begin to wonder if it's worth all that careful footwork. I think you have to decide whether you're doing Plan-A-ing-into-infinity, and whether that is really a viable option. In my case, I can see why H is so prickly - but it's nothing I can help him with. All I can do is to establish some boundaries about what represents a healthy relationship, and assess whether we're getting any closer to that. Thanks for your sensitivity.

Mimi - yes, I have confidence that NC is firmly established,and that H is committed to recovering himself and the marriage. In fact, he has been more steadfast than me in being determined to stay - it's me whose committment wavers. He's worked enormously hard to rehabilitate himself with me and the children - much to his credit. But I think that NC was not established in the best way - it was done through a series of 'closure' phone calls in whcih I suspect he expressed love and loyalty and a need to Do The Right Thing, and it came after six months of escalating contact in which the two continually reinforced their need for each other. He broke it off only when I asked him to leave. So, I think I have been left with very little confidence that he genuinely wants me, but rather that he wants to rebuild himself a new 'decent' life in which I play a pivotal role. After multiple OWs, prostitutes, the lot, he is clear that he got himself into a 'nightmare' and is determined not to go back there. But I am still left with the impression that he retains loyalty and passion for SOW. I think you're spot-on; I didn't get much of a sense of closure, and still feel unsure whether SOW was rejected only on practical grounds. He has not been able to reassure me on this, for whatever reason.

SD, thanks for reminding me of this : This process is a marathon, not a sprint. Yes, it is, but sometimes it feels like you're fifteen miles into a race that you didn't enter for, and that you didn't train for, and your lungs are burning and you're wondering why on earth anyone would expect you to make it to the end! But you remind me that H has a long journey back from the HUGE (twenty years +) hole that he dug for himself, and that, unfortunately, the resource that he relies on for support is the very resource that he wounded to the point of incapacitation. (And that he is at least being honest, in not telling me that he loathes SOW if he doesn't.) Let's measure progress - he is trying very hard in all kinds of ways, and there is clearly some damage in there that will take a long time to fix. Thanks, SD.

Thank you all.

TA

Together Alone

One other phase of this saga, is that when you've worked so hard, like you said, in the race you didn't even sign up for (unless you consider "for better or worse" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> is that once you have the Wayward Spouse back, there are many doubts.

You've worked so hard, and the efforts coming from the WS are at best, lackluster, especially at first. You also have to fight that feeling that the WS has come "home", settling for "second best". I would compare the experience, though I've never had it, to post-partum depression. Something you endure for a long period, something very emotional, wanting, longing, hoping, praying, your whole being caught up in the feelings of wanting the WS to "come home". Then they do.

Then the feelings begin to creep into your head, and try to sabatoge your efforts. I KNOW my FWW didn't want to be with me. She made it clear in words and actions. It's really hard to fight through those times. It's hard to stay motivated, and hard to believe your efforts will ever bear fruit.

There are many here in Recovery that still don't feel the "connection" they once had, or that they feel they should have at this point. I have wondered about it myself, numerous times. But so long as I keep my end of the efforts in place, things steadily improve. I've become irresistable to my FWW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Or at least moreso than I was in the pre-A days.

Don't give up. Counseling with the Harley's comes highly recommended, expensive, but effective, and on the mark. I've never seen poor reports. Some times, you just have to believe!

Best wishes
SD

SD I still have that question for you. Did your WW resist your plan A efforts and di you fear that she would not give you enough time to change her "feelings" for you? My W has indicated that she is not going to hang around 4ever (I think I got 1 yr max). How do their feelings develop, slowly I would guess. Like slowly pulling back a curtain, they are interested so they wait to see more?

OK just reread your post, our W's are similar. Mine doesn't want me either, at least that is what the fog is saying.

Bear, my FWW stayed with me for all the wrong reasons. She lied to me, she lied to the MC, she stayed immersed in the fog for the longest time. I felt nothing from her.

Plan A, when done right, removes all the things about you that you did wrong in the marriage before. Correct your own behaviour in what you bring to the marriage. If you never helped out around the house, and she resented it, it's time to ante up, and help out with sweeping, cooking, dishes, laundry, etc. I made FWW promise to give ME the time that was saved by my efforts, and we started going out to movies, clubs, concerts, etc.

Plan A confuses the WS. When you correct a bunch of stuff you used to do badly, and replace it with things done willfully and thoughtfully, and expect NOTHING in return, they have less reason to "dislike" you, and it makes the A harder for them to justify in their mind.

You start to look good to them. That forces them to re-examine the OP. Suddenly they don't look quite as good. WS's live with all kinds of doubts in their minds, and this Plan A adds to those doubts. And they NOTICE, even though they either, 1. don't let on they notice, or 2. notice and tell you you are wasting your time. Fogspeak!

The more consistant you are in Plan A the harder it is for the WS to ignore your efforts.

Is it easy? Hell no. Does it work? It did for me. Is it worth it? That's up to you.

Understand this: If your marriage is going to have a chance at surviving an affair, YOU, the BS, is going to have to do 110% of the work. And you'll have to do it through the ending of the affair, through withdrawal (up to 6 months or longer), and well into recovery. There is no such thing as a quick fix.

When people "fall in love" even with false and illicit feelings, it takes a very long time for those feeling to fade.

Is the woman you fell in love with and married worth it? Only you can answer that question.

Mine was!

SD

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

^^bump for Bear^^

Shattered:

Thanks for yours posts. You are helping me, too.

mimi

Thank you. These forums help people in wonderous ways. I only had a few posts asking for advice. I spent most of my time reading others "problems" and the responses of the "wise ones" to them. If I felt I understood the problem and the answer, I stored that information away, and used it in my situation.

I then began responding to others what I had learned. I found that I gained more from reading and learning, then regurgitating that information to others was more helpful to me than I ever believed possible.

I see that you have a lot of posts, and that you are busy helping others, as well. It seems we maybe gain more from answering than asking. Funny how things work, eh?

Best wishes
SD

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

Shattered dreams,

I enjoy reading your posts - it’s very thorough and insightful. When I read posts like yours and other BS’s who still love their WS’s and who make all these efforts to safe their M’s in spite of everything the WS’s did to them and in spite of the circumstances & pain they are going though, I feel so overwhelmed. I have much admiration and appreciation for such unconditional and agape love from BS’s towards their WS’s. I believe only God can put such love in a person’s heart and I believe one day you people will receive a special place in heaven for that...

Could my last post be of any insight and help to answer your question? Did you read the link I’ve given you?

Blessings,
Suzet

SHATTERED:

A couple of years ago this FORUM was literally my LIFE THREAD. Now I'm trying to give back some of what I received. I'm finding, at this point in my recovery, that helping others is taking my focus off of the OW. That has been a lingering problem with me is an obsession with her. I was helped through your post in knowing that I'm not alone in my feelings and in what I have done. So many folks out here don't understand how I could have reconciled with my FWH given all the horrible things that he did....leaving me more than once, moving in with the OW, etc. Although I am now happy in my marriage, I lost many friends and some family members who did not support me. No one but the folks here could understand that, despite all of that trauma that I went through, my marriage is even better than it was before. Too bad that we had to go through the tragedy and pain to get here. It is what it is....

Thanks for the support from all of you...In my belief system, we will all meet in HEAVEN one day.

Guys, these post are extremely helpful, b/s they give me hope when sometimes there is none.

My WW is still on the fence, although she is home w/me (no SF though). I beleive my plan A is keeping her here. However, I need to make my plan A better. WW has a great need for conversation and that what draws her to OM, but I am a fairly quit person and the only thing I want to talk about is our R and she doesn't.

Any advice on how to talk about other things when the only thing on our minds is the A.

I know this may be a little off topic, but then again, by filling those important ENs may assist in the recovery process.

Well, today is my birthday and unfortunatly it's not all that happy, but there is always next year. I still have hope.

Thanks for the support, especially those of you who come back to help.

SD I feel like you have blazed a trail and I am going to be following you down that trail. I believe I have the strength to do this. I do not fear my W leaving me, and I am certain the A is over, it is when she tells me that she still love's me just "not enough", that hurts. I just chalk it up to fog.

She is at IC tonight, gonna be rough, she is always touchy when she leaves there. Makes her take a hard look at herself.


I'll be leaning on you for guidance, but feel like I know the right path to follow now.

So Numb

First of all: Happy Birthday!!!

You said...

Any advice on how to talk about other things when the only thing on our minds is the A.

Get busy having fun. Do those things you used to do that were mutually pleasurable for you when you were courting, or Pre-A. If WS won't join you for fun outings, do a few on your own, without any airs or attitudes. When you return from a solo outing, behave in a happy and upbeat manner. It will make the WS wonder what you did <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Regulate yourself (really hard, I know, but do it) to only bringing up R talks infrequently, perhaps only once a week, or following IC or MC sessions. Don't let them go on and on, limit them to short, succinct, positive conversations. If things get surly, call a timeout, and reschedule when calmer minds prevail.

The WS ALWAYS percieves these talks as THROWING THE "A" IN THEIR FACE. It takes a huge amount of measuring your words to work through this, and it will not happen overnight.

My FWW and I went to shows, concerts, dinners, mini-trips to museums, much of it stuff I "refused" to do before, but did, and even suggested sometimes to show by ACTIONS, I was dead serious about proving to her I was worthy of her love. Tough to do? Sometimes. But it got her attention.

I've described this period as your WS perceiving a large granite slab blocking the doorway to their return to the M. I've described Plan A actions as little missles that blow small chunks of the granite slab away. LoveBuster's, however, return a handful of chunks BACK to the SLAB, and are very counter productive.

Belive in Plan A, do it as flawlessly as possible, minimize R talks and NEVER lose your cool when having them, and kill the WS with kindness. When you add up a large stockpile of not-so random acts of kindness and love, it begins to crumble the foundation of their "need" for the A.

Now I'm no expert, but this is what worked for me.

Bear: All of this above should apply to your situation, as well. Remember, above all, when FWW returns from the IC, you be the softest, safest place for her to "land" that you can be. Don't force her to talk about it. But let her know she can talk with you about anything at any time, and you will NOT HOLD IT AGAINST HER, NOR BECOME ANGRY WITH HER. Explain that you may feel pain, and you may be sad and hurt, but you KNOW that her sharing is part of this recovery process. Besides, feeling that pain, and sharing a tear with her/for her speaks volumes... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Best Wishes
SD

SD- Thanks a lot! Your words give me hope and direction and I do believe they will work for me and many of us.

I just had lunch with W, and didn't mention anything about our R and it went well. We even talked about moving into a new house. Not that we will, but it is talk about our future together.

Bear, be greatfull your W has ended the A. Mine has not. Just think of how it would be if she had not. This gives you a reason to be upbeat and positive. I can't wait until I am where you are.

Thanks again for your replies.

Shattered has stated exactly what has worked for us in our year-long recovery!

I want to let you know that we did buy a new house and it has really been key in us starting a NEW LIFE TOGETHER although we have been married 28 years. You might want to think about it if you can swing it!

Suzet

I WILL get to that thread and respond to your questions.... work keeps getting in the way!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I posted earlier that I was no longer afraid of W leaving me and have been trying to figure out why I said that. A couple things just came to me:

First, I can go it alone. I am not afraid of being alone. It will hurt, but I'll get over it.

Second, I just thought of this. In the beginning, W was REAL defiant "I will only commit to 5 MC sessions, no guarantees after that. Well, #5 was weeks ago. I think we are on 8, and she is going to her 2nd IC tonight.

Third, her fog talk is some of the absolutely stupidest sh*t I've ever heard come out of someone's mouth. It makes no sense. You can say "I love you, but not in love", but when the next thing is "our (2yr old son)won't be affected if we D, he's too young to understand". I am laughing now, oh if it wasn't soooo serious a subject. That stuff hurts, but then remember the person fka my W is saying it and, well, I forget it.

Fourth, and absolute transformation in her behavior from the party girl that she turned into up to and during the A to the stay home mom who has cut back on the amount of time she spends with her partying friends. Also, after Dday, they kept calling her to come out, now those calls are fewer as they get the picture that she is done w/that lifestyle.

Finally, she is having moments of clarity, things are normal and she makes plans for the future like she will always be by my side and we will never be apart. Decisions that need to be made about our house, health insurance benefits, having more kids (though in a fog she said that she would do the right thing and stay M but I would never have SF with her again which was to bad because she wanted more kids but now that was never going to happen...great M huh.), coming over and cleaning the house, buying ME things (shirt from old navy, other things).

These are the things I see from my perspective. What do you think? There is one big thing that slammed into my head earlier today as well, but I can't recall it now.

Well got that out, thanks for listening.

That a positive frame of mind, and concentrated efforts pay off? That when you look back and measure by the month, instead of by the hour, day or week, you can see progress? That the fog-bound maniac who uttered some of the most painful sh1t to you that you could ever imagine, now has moments of clarity, and a vision of the future?

Awwwwww... those are just guesses. When the 'big one' comes back into mind, post it!

SD

Bear, the future is looking bright for you. I am happy for you.

And you are right, that fog talk is the stupidest $h1t I have ever heard. Kids have more sense than that.

Well, you know yesterday was my B-day and I asked my W in the morning not to talk to OM for me; she said OK. I noticed that she had talk on her cell for 4 hrs during the day and when I got home I noticed a missed call from OM on her cell. So. while she was bathing w/our boys, I call OM and left a message. It went something like this:

"what kind of person are you to disrespect a family, my kids, me, and my wife. She is trying to work on her marrage and you keep calling. What kind of man are you?"(I used no curse words)

So, when I am in the shower, he calls W on my home phone, and tells her I am herassing him and that I cursing him out. Then, she has the nerve to get mad at me for calling OM. We then argue for a while, then her aunt gets her on the phone and tells her like it is. After she gets off the phone she lays down with me and tells me she sorry for blamming me. Then gets up to put our youngest asleep and never returns.

Should I expect SF from her on my b-day especially after all of this. I was v. angry w/her this morning and when I left for work I told her to keep digging her hole.

I am fed up.

Just venting.