Jen,

I guess I wasn’t clear in my last post. I meant to say that at the time of the affair the sex was better with the OW than the sex I was having with my wife. I was emotionally connected to the OW not to my wife. This does matter . . . even to us emotionally simple men. Do you see what I’m saying? Sex with my wife, early and the marriage and now, is better than anything that I have ever had. We are now very much in to each other . . . no pun intended.


Andrew Said
<strong>By the way, CN or some other WS...can you help me understand something? I know that needs often drive people to the point of having an affair. But..what is going through your mind at the actual "choice" moment? I mean..you are already there, in the room and it's obvious that the opportunity exists. I read lots of posts here in which people say they knew it was wrong, but they did it anyway. At some point, it seems to me, a conscious choice is made. Am I correct about that?</strong>

Were it only that simple. My OW was someone I knew most of my adult life. We saw each other daily for years and years (work). I don’t know where or when the line was crossed . . . form friends (not really I guess it was an EA for a long time before it was a PA) to something else. There wasn’t one moment when it was fine and then the next we decided to take our clothes off. The intimacy happened over a few years . . . and one day things were just different . . . we were no longer friends supporting ourselves through troubled marriages.

But CN...there WAS a moment when you decided: "I am going to have sex with this person," right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bear04:
<strong> Choice points, exactly. How about afterwards. The BS knows they did wrong, how can they look at their spouse the next day. But in my case, my W continued. How can she go back again? These are questions I will need to have answered in time, along with many others. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ask any addict why they keep going back to what they know is bad for them and see what they say. How can someone on heroin, knowing what it is doing to them and the people they care about, still shoot-up? Because they are addicted.

I see BS so often searching for answers to "why?" and "What were you thinking?" and "How could you do this to me?" From my limited perspective, there really isn't aren't may answers to these questions. The fact is I didn't think about my wife at all when I was with the OW. I didn't see it as something I was doing to her . . . it was something I was doing for me. I know that doesn't help, but really that is how it happened.

I just compartmentalized that part of my life, to the best of my ability.

I'm glad I'm not an addict anymore . . . it felt terribe to be so out of control.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AndrewA:
<strong> But CN...there WAS a moment when you decided: "I am going to have sex with this person," right? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure there was, but I don't remember it. I think it started with a hug . . . not with a decision that I'm going to have sex. . . at least in my case this is how it happened.

In my wife's case, as I said, there seem to be a lot of opportunities for her to turn it around. The fact that she took her ring off, for example, suggests that she knew what she was doing...and that she made a conscious choice to continue.

I can buy the "overwhelemed lover" argument up to a point. I can also buy the fact that a WS doesn't think about his or her H or W while the event is going on.

But...I can't buy the fact that ALL choice is abandoned to feeling. Sure, an addict does what he does becasue he is addicted. But...what about the first time he took heroin? He wsn't addicted at that point. There had to be a CHOICE made.

Wow CN, thanks for sharing. We've gotten way off topic here but this is enlightening. I am sure everybody is different about their feelings immediately prior to. I have always looked at it from MY perspective of what W was doing TO ME, versus she was doing something for herself. Ok free writing here, I take that last statement back. I have always said what she did was a SELFISH act. I have known her reasoning all along, and you said the same thing. It was something you were doing for you. Without regard to who got hurt in the process? (question for you) Isn't that the definition of being selfish?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AndrewA:
<strong> In my wife's case, as I said, there seem to be a lot of opportunities for her to turn it around. The fact that she took her ring off, for example, suggests that she knew what she was doing...and that she made a conscious choice to continue.

I can buy the "overwhelemed lover" argument up to a point. I can also buy the fact that a WS doesn't think about his or her H or W while the event is going on.

But...I can't buy the fact that ALL choice is abandoned to feeling. Sure, an addict does what he does becasue he is addicted. But...what about the first time he took heroin? He wsn't addicted at that point. There had to be a CHOICE made. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't justify my choices to have an affair or you wife's. IMO mine was much more damaging . . . there was tremendous emotional bonding . . . the sex was just the next progression of the already inappropriate relationship.

I don't understand ONS. I had a few in college and they left me pretty empty.

About the addict thing. I think that someone may take herion the first time for the thrill, because you are not supposed to do it, it is illegal, dangerous, it might distract you for a while, or give you a place to hide your pain. I think that SOME people begin affairs for the same reasons. The keep coming back because the feeling are addicting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bear04:
<strong> It was something you were doing for you. Without regard to who got hurt in the process? (question for you) Isn't that the definition of being selfish? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">An affair is about the most selfish thing you can do. . . and probably the most damaging thing you can do to your spouse. And part of the reason it is so damaging is because of the complete lack of consideration that you give your spouse. . .

CN, thanks for your honesty and perspective.

I gues I'm caught in the same trap that a lot of other BSes are caught in...we want to understand logically something that likely isn't rational.

I do think, as I've said, that at some point people understand what they are doing and they choose to continue or not to continue.

Understanding WHY and HOW that choice is made, however, is difficult.

I think my FWW is addicted to that new feeling. The feeling of being desired and wanted by a new person...being pursued. She has admitted it. I told her that that worries me that she may give into it again. That's why I had been pushing so hard lately to "affair proof" our marriage. Fix our problems, set boundaries, and renew our passion.

FWW doesn't want to have anything to do with that yet. She says that she needs more time and space. I think she is still in withdrawal. Maybe not particularly from OM but from the new feeling. I miss her so much. My will to save this marriage and my love for her is fading. I don't know how long I can go on like this....receiving nothing from her while she attempts to "find herself".....while ignoring my needs and the needs of our marriage.

Ok CN. But I am having a hard time getting beyond this being anything other than a selfishness. Because whatever reason that is given for an A. Whether it is thrill, escape, whatever, it all comes down to the WS doing something for themselves at the expense of BS and family.

Now, I agree that your example of drug addiction is dead on accurate because that is all about doing something for yourself at the expense of others as well.

I guess the heading is selfishness, and the reasons are subtitled underneath that. Whether it is thrill, release, whatever. That is the way I see it.

Asked and answered, eloquently I might add. thank you very much for your openness. You are helping a lot of us out there CN.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SCdazed:
<strong> FWW doesn't want to have anything to do with that yet. She says that she needs more time and space. I think she is still in withdrawal. Maybe not particularly from OM but from the new feeling. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SCdazed, I think you hit pay-dirt here. It really is the feelings that she is probably missing, it is not the OM, it is just how she felt when she was with him. The "him" really isn't the point.

I too missed how I selt with the OW. I thought it was the OW that I really missed. I just knew that I never felt that way about my wife . . . then I found my old lover letters that I wrote her, she saved every one. I read them and guess what, I did have those feelings . . . I just lost them.

BTW they do come back.

CN can you give me a little more insight here, thanks.

My W said in counseling that the A made her feel good in the short run. It started in spring, I really didn't notice, by August our lives were wrecks. She and OM were also starting to fight as well. She said in MC that in the long run not worth it (no crap). This A did act just like a drug addiction. It eventually consumed her and started destroying everything around her.

Can you add any other thoughts to my analysis? My W, if she saw this, would tell me I am so far off base here. I would have to answer that I am the sane one right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bear04:
<strong> CN can you give me a little more insight here, thanks.

My W said in counseling that the A made her feel good in the short run. It started in spring, I really didn't notice, by August our lives were wrecks. She and OM were also starting to fight as well. She said in MC that in the long run not worth it (no crap). This A did act just like a drug addiction. It eventually consumed her and started destroying everything around her.

Can you add any other thoughts to my analysis? My W, if she saw this, would tell me I am so far off base here. I would have to answer that I am the sane one right now. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't really add much. Your wife won't be able to rationally think about the affair for quite some time, well if she is like me that is. Don’t put too much faith in what she says now, she probably doesn’t know what happened to her, especially if this is out of character for her. People that have serial affairs have very different issues.

Of course the affair started off in spades, if it hurt like hell she wouldn't have kept it going. Everyone is on their best behavior when an affair starts, the brain-chemicals that are swirling around help to make you emotionally drunk. This stuff is very powerful. Once the affair partners begin to see each other as they really are, warts and all, things change. I’m sure your home life went to hell . . . mine sure did. I felt so much guilt for what I doing. I guess I tried to pick fights so I justify what I was doing because my wife was such a b!tch . . . man, that was a sh!tty thing to do. Sad really.

The BH's in here are getting too wrapped up in knowing 'things'. Guys, why do you watch football? You just do it cuz you enjoy it, it passes time, it is fun. Let's face it, sin is generally fun...some questions really don't need to be asked nor answered.

You guys are entering the downward spiral with your lines of thought...I'm just forewarning you. You could be 8 years from dday, and if you run through the thought pattern you guys are persuing, you can spiral yourself right back to day one. You need to individually take the time aside for these thoughts, let them run their course, and forgive your wives for each of the thoughts you are asking. Then when you start to think about them, even remotely, you can know with a fact, you went down that road and forgave your wife...and turn the thought off. Just quit asking yoruself the question, because you KNOW you have addressed it. It doesn't matter how she did it, what matters is that it did happen, and that you forgive her for it. FOrgiveness doesn't make the bad thoughts go away, it allows you to act appropriately when they come.

I understand complete honesty, and even disclosure...and each BS has a right to know what they feel they need to know... but, quit asking question of morbid curiousity. If you think about it yourself, for a bit of time, you can easily understand how these things happen, they just do. And yes, it is complete selfishness. It has little at all to do with the spouse at the moment of decision.

This is coming from the perspective of a BH, so, I am pretty familair with the thoughts you guys are expressing. I know what you are seeking, but, honestly, there isn't an answer that is gonna fix it for you.

One other thing.. the real question you should be asking:

HOW DID I NEGLECT MY WIFE SO BADLY, THAT SHE WAS WILLING TO DO THIS, WHICH I KNOW SHE LOATHES?

That is the real question, and the answer is something you can fix. This is how to work on rebuilding your marriage.

RookKev is right.

It has little to do with the spouse at the time of the decision.

And I'd be willing to bet that is precisely what chaps the @ss of many who ask.

It is painful to discover that someone means more to you, than you mean to them.

But you have learned it. Morbid curiosity is one of my favorite things..with exception to Hs affair..because it hurts me to realize with each question...that the ultimate answer is that I wasn't worth enough to him to say no.

Not a good thing to remind yourself if you want to stay in your marriage.

Now if you want out..and are building up to that..pray continue..it makes a fine lubricant.

--Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RookKev:
<strong> One other thing.. the real question you should be asking:

HOW DID I NEGLECT MY WIFE SO BADLY, THAT SHE WAS WILLING TO DO THIS, WHICH I KNOW SHE LOATHES?

That is the real question, and the answer is something you can fix. This is how to work on rebuilding your marriage. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ouch . . . Rook that was a bit strong . . . and this is from a FWS. A BS certainly played a part in the state of the marriage at the time of the affair, but at no time did my wife have control of where I fancied to place my penis.

My wife ignored me for a long time . . . spent tons of money . . . worked constantly . . . but she did not cause me to have my affair. That was my choice and it was unethincal.

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

Although I'm going to have to disagree with you RK..on that second bit.