Questions about sex and emotions after an A?

We are still early in recovery although I feel as though I have been suffering much longer. The first few weeks following my H's A the sex seemed to be really making a come back but then something happened. I no longer feel the emotions that used to engulf my soul when we had sex. The emotions are almost non existent at this point. Any of you felt this, and does it ever come back?

Jennie,

I went through a long period of time where everytime we had sex I cried...then I had a numb period...now things are back on track. It took me about 2 years after the affair to really "feel" normal during sex...but I'm sure that varies for folks.

(((((((((((jennie)))))))))))))

Hi Jennie !

My FWW wants hi-quality SF all the time. It means less to me BUT is all positive. It FEELS at least sometimes to me like its lovemaking and a mutual LB$ deposit.

I am sure it will go as soon as it arrived. Try not to read too much into SF at during early recovery. Enjoy what you get ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> * blush *

All blessings

Bob

I have to ask. It has been almost 2 months since Dday. My W says she wants to work it out. I cannot get a hug, kiss, nothing, much less actual SF from her. Our sexual relations were not the greatest prior to A (contributing to them). So I am not suprised. The way I figure It will be at least 2 more months before we have SF, if at all.

The question is, was there a time period that there was no SF? How long did it take to come around, etc?

There was about 2 weeks after that there was nothing at all, then it was good for a few weeks but now I really feel as if there's nothing there and there are days that I wonder if I even still love my WH. I feel unwanted for one thing, and that doesn't help matters. I never initiate it anymore, I don't know if that is because of his A or because while it was going on, he turned me down until I was tired of trying. I hope things get better and the feelings start to return soon because I'm sliding closer and closer to just asking that we seperate until we both decide that we want to be together still.

[ November 03, 2004, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Jennie G ]

If I try to initiate intimacy with my FWW, she almost always turns me down and tells me not to pressure her. I don't try to initiate much at all anymore. I have to wait for her to initiate it. Only once since D-Day has she gotten fulfillment from intimacy. She says that she gets turned on and wants it, but once we start, she "loses the feeling and desire and she is not into it anymore". So we don't try much (in my book at least....maybe once a week....sometimes 2 weeks pass before next time...in EN survey I indicated that I would like SF 3-4 times/week)

btw-

Sometimes during intimate moments, I can't help thinking about my FWW and OM together. The imaginary images haunt me. It hasn't discouraged me from seeking SF yet, but it definately bothers me. I just keep telling myself in my on self torturous way, "She has been with someone else! She gave it up for another while being married to me!" and I just keep trying wake up from that nightmare. I hope the triggers start to fade....they haunt me.

My WH says that he misses that I used to initiate it, but I just can't do it, I don't know why, and when it does happen, it is far from being the way that it was. This used to be a time for me that was filled with emotion, but there is nothing now just wishing it would be over. I just can't shake the feeling that something about sex with her was better than it is with me, I may never overcome that, and I wonder if my life would be easier without him now, I just don't know, it seems that the pain would stop if he wasn't here, does anyone else feel this way?

Yeah, that's how my FWW is. Just wishing it would be over. I wonder what she is thinking about. She says that she just, "loses it". What does that mean? Being a man, I just don't know how that happens. Please explain it to me somebody. FWW's? Anybody? I really want to understand.

I am the BS wishing that it would just be over. I really don't know if WH even realizes that I feel like this, but I do intend to bring it out in the open so we can talk about it. He doesn't mention it, but he does know that I'm not interested like I used to be. He says that I don't find anything sexy anymore and I really don't know what to say to that without LB'ing. We still aren't at the point where he knows exactly why he had the A. I believe that if I hadn't caught them together it would still be happening. I don't think he would have felt enough remorse to stop it ever.

I am having the same problem w/SF from my WW. I am sick of being turned down, knowing she has given it to OM. I have been in house for over 2 wks. she expects to lay and hug me at night w/no SF. For a man, when you have a beautiful woman that you love hugging against you and can't have it...That is pure torture. Believe me I want to be there for her, and I know she is not ready, but it is too much. I AM NOT GAY, what does she expect from me. She says that we will. Now, I sleep in another bed. I can't put myself through that, but I do really want to hug her.

Also, and I am sure I am not alone on this, but when I get turned down, you know what I'am thinking of.

Just to show that ya'll are not alone.

I must say that many times when my FWH and I have SF I am haunted by the images of him and the OW together. It is very hard to overcome and I pray with time that this will fade.

I often times wonder if he is actually thinking of her while making love to me. He claims not, but after being lied to so many times I never know what to believe. Honesty is definitely not his strong suit. I think he tells what he feels I want to hear.

I hear you and understand you all so very well.

SF has not been the same at all since the A. I feel like all we ever do is have sex, the physical act not the emotional act of making love. I hate it. There is no tenderness, no caressing, no intimacy, just the physical act. Before the A my H would be so good at kissing and caressing me, now I just feel used most times. I am glad and sad that I am not alone in this aspect. Sorry all.

Has anyone noticed a change in what kind of SF their WS has since coming back? Mine is primarily interested in OS. Actually rather fixated on it. Has anyone else come across something similar?

In my situation we didn't have SF for 8 months. Yes you read that correctly. My FWH wanted to but I didn't. I wasn't about to until I felt ready and that our marriage was heading back on the right track. The first time (which was very recent) I had a panic attack afterwords, no kidding. I couldn't breathe and cried. It was AWFUL! FWH felt awful too for it coming to that. But you know what, I cried, got it out, and now it's getting better. I can't say it's all 100% but it's getting there.

I say take your time and do what is right for you and your relationship.

Has anyone else come across something similar?

Well....my FWW really enjoys me being deep inside her and kissing her at, erm., critical moments. * blush *

OM was very differently built by all accounts ...erm... and not too patient.

Whatever the reason its nice and feels like lovemaking not just SF.

oh yeah, when we first got back together it was really good. we held eachother for ours, told each other we loved one another and were so sorry that this had happened. We felt close and connected again so fast. However that did not last long unfortunently. Also now he is addicted to adult movies, pictures, websites, and magazines.... And is no longer interested in me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KMEJ:
Also now he is addicted to adult movies, pictures, websites, and magazines.... And is no longer interested in me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Oh that is bad. I don't know your situation. Is he home with you? If so, man the porn has got to stop. It wrecked things w/my marriage and my FWH until he got help and realized what it was doing. Not all people realize how damaging porn can be to a marriage. I hope this changes for you soon.

SF in the beginning of recovery is always difficult. I felt used and unfulfilled after sex in the beginning. It wasn't long, I would say several months and it was better than before the A. However, it has been more than a year since D-Day, and I sometimes still see images of them together. Sorry!

SoNumb, you get to hug and cuddle with your W. That is a dream for me. She won't even let me shake her hand. SF will come for you b4 long. You have to warm the engine.

I would be happy with a passionate kiss purhaps. Actually I think I have forgotten how to "french" kiss it has been so long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now you're talking, KMEJ! I hope that day is in my future...

yeah me too! however it is doubtful with my H. If you read my thread (yeah it is now LONG) you would get the full details. Quick run down. fWH made contact with OW, and asked my best friend if she wanted SF with him. He says it was all in fun... Anyway- not looking so good for the J team.

Still want that kiss someday though!

*** double post*** Opps <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ November 03, 2004, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: KMEJ ]

Bear, the hugging and cuddling is great, but really think how long you can do that w/o trying SF. Then think of getting turned down every time. My suggistion, if you get your wish and hopefully you do, take care of your self before hand, but what are you going to do at 5..6 in the morning(you know what I mean), I guess take a cold shower.

What maybe good for me is, I have a birthday next week <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And back to the question, when? When? When will they want it. I guess we will all see. It's our job to be patient.

All in All, we just want our WS to want us.

Yeah, my FWW and I almost never kiss...when we do, it is a quick pop kiss just on the lips....nothing more.

She has said that maybe it's my breath....we'll I've done everything possible to correct that...bushing teeth, mouthwash, breath mints, you name it. She says that when she thinks about kissing me, it disgusts her. Man, that really hurt! I think it is some kinda mental block thing...been going on since before the A. I guess it was one of the first signs of our marriage troubles that led up to the affair.

I really miss kissing my wife....like REALLY kissing her. Most of the time when I lean down to kiss her goodbye, she turns away and only offers me her cheek or forehead. I feel rejected because of this...most of the time.

Is it strange to anyone but me that my H is 26 and has no interest in me? I come on to him and he says no (yes he had the A- but still) however if he wants some he does not stop until he gets it? I love my H. I just hate the feeling of continued rejection. Why do we subject ourselves to that?
ALso what is up with when we initially got back together we were acting like we were in Highschool again, anytime anyplace, and now it is so rare (like once a week-sometimes more sometimes less- typically when he wants too).
Should I be happy I am getting any? I am the GIRL and I want it WAY more then He does, is that typical?

I miss just feeling close to my H. I would be thrilled if he even acknowledged me before he left by saying goodbye. I would be floating if he gave me a hug or a kiss!!!

I miss the intimacy. The hugs, anything to show that we are a couple, not roommates. You know?
I asked him why he does not hold my hand, kiss, hug, anything??? His answer...."why?" not why am I asking, but why should he bother. That hurt badly.

I am sorry your wife is so cold. I am sorry she does not know what she is doing to you and your marriage. Please hang in there.

Don't know what to tell you. I have never turned it down, can't imagine ever turning it down. I mean, unless you are asking for it 2,3 times a day. Even then I still wouldn't turm it down. He's 26? I remember 26, not that long ago. If he is like me, mental issues still don't block you from that. I really don't know what to tell you.

I will have to say this, rejection for a guy is expected from time to time. I mean, even when my M was at its absolute best I still was turned down from time to time because of being tired, etc. However, if W initiates, there is no way I turn it down. Unless I had just gotten done working a 16 hr day in 100 degree heat digging ditches (just an example, I am not a ditchdigger). Even then, we would make "arrangements".

You are too funny.

Another question, my H's favorite time to start things is at like 2-3 in the morning, when I am out cold and he has been watching adult flicks. Granted he works from 4-1, but still. I get home at 2:30 he leaves at 3:30, we could make arrangements to entertain the kids (did on Monday <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> my idea though). Why does he wait until I am so out of it I am just a body laying there?

Also what is with this new thing of no kissing? Do they think that they are betraying their former "soulmate?" what about us loving spouse that waited for them to wake up?

I am glad you would not turn your wife down. I did not mean to imply that you were that much older then us. I was just using his age to show what his s*x drive should be....

No offense taken, I was just pointing out that I am close enough to that age to remember what it's like.

Anyways, you work off schedules, that does create a problem. 2 AM is really the only together time you have available. The bigger problem I see is that he watches the flicks, gets all revved up and expects you to be there to satisfy his needs. It appears he doesn't want SF to be one w/you, rather to fill his own needs. Well, I can understand it, and it might work for a little while but this is a bad, bad rut to get into.

I don't know how much influence you have now, but if it were me this would be a good compromise: get rid of all the porn, no more of it, if it's not gone H isn't getting anything. If he gets rid of it all, and kicks this habit, you 2 can do it anytime he wants 24/7. I would go for that, yet all people are different. Therapy is actually what he needs. That stuff can be very addicting. I don't get it, why would H be a spectator when he could be a participant?

Did I happen to mention that I hate the 2-3 am wake up call? It is only to fill his need. Sometimes he does try, but he is focused on his need. It is usually that or he wants OS, because "you are Sooooo good at it" maybe I should start to be bad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

I found out yesterday that H has been now downloading the stuff. What is the purpose? Do you suppose I do not turn him on? Okay granted I had three kids, no longer the hotest body. But then again I Had 3 of HIS kids and I am a size 8/9, and 5'6-not sure what the hang up is. Is it because I am blond with blue eyes and not brunette with brown eyes (op)?? What is the deal?

Is there something that works for men to get him interested again??????

K- like Bear, I don't understand either. I'll take it when I can get it. I wish my wife had your S drive.

SC- I may be in the same boat as far as the kissing. I have always loved kissing and Pre-A she really didn't and sometimes blamed my breath and being aware of it I would brush before I tried kissing or Sex, but no results. I need to quit dipping skoal(it was a baseball thing). Try brushing your teath whenever you can especially when you get home. Also, get a tounge scraper. Do some research.

I do beleive they feel that they are betraying OM/OW.

K- Your size sounds v. proportionate, but if you feel uncomfortable with your weight, than you should work on it. It will give you something to do for yourself and make you feel better about yourself. And build you confidence, he will notice. But if that is no the case, I wouldn't do it for him. Have you tried talking to him about sex situation.

I talk to him about it alot. I ask when we are going to stop having s*x and start Making love again. He says he does not know the difference. There is a difference. He says he is attracted to me, says he always have been. Says he loves me. Just feels that i am always pushing him away. Also that we never have anytime together. I say we should make the most of the time we have. I could go for "it" daily- if the interaction and communication was right. you know- no lovebusting. you have no idea what a turn on it is for a woman when a man does things with out being asked, and is sweet.

Try hugging your wife for no reason. Call her to see how her day has been, tell her you love her. Tell her she looks beautiful. Show her to you she is perfect. If any of that were to happen, my H would not get through the door. But then again that is just me. I did not use to be this way.

I want to work on my body, however he will not let me join a gym, and bought me a tredmill. Has anyone tried running on a tread-mill with 3 kids trying to jump on? Not happening. I have been able to lose 50# already, just need to lose the last 20. My parents want me to stop this whole dieting thing- but I am not ready yet. However my self-esteem does not inhibit my SD.

Also lately I have been so sad by the rejection I do the worst thing, EAT EAT EAT, and sit in front of the computer and talk to you all

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> time to start the dance hour again. That is where the kids and I crank the radio and shake our Booties (as my 4 year old says). We basically dance and make fools of ourselves for an hour. We laugh and it wears them out and burns calories for me.

In the wake of my wife's affair, we have had some very open, detailed discussions about sex and intimacy. I think it's been very good for us.

It's clear to both of us - it has been for a long time - that our sex life was seriously off-track prior to the A. Basically, we got into a lot of habits that we were both repulsed by. But...we didn't TALK about the fact that we were repulsed. So...we stayed away from each other, for the most part. That deepeened our sense of isolation from each other.

Over the last few weeks, I think we have gotten back on track. It hasn't been easy - it's taken a lot of radical honesty. But...we've both discovered that we have a lot in common, in terms of what we like and don't like, and we've made simplicity the center of our love life.

As a result, we are both a lot more fulfilled than we have been in a long, long time.

can I ask how you approched the subject? Or how you were able to be so open about it. That is my problem. I do not know how to open up or talk with out feeling embarrest, unless we are on the phone (but then he does not talk, silence is hard to hear) or dark. I guess I never feel comfortable opening up my feelings to him with out worrying that I will be made fun of...

Well..it was kind of an outgrowth of the other relationship-building stuff we've done.

We did the emotional needs assessment, and that has a section on sexual fulfillment. We started talking about our answers to that, and it seemed like we really both wanted to simplify our sex life and to set clear limits.

So...we made up a new questionairre that focused on sex acts, positions and that kind of thing. The aim was to see if we both enjoy them, don't enjoy them, or don't care. If there were acts or positions that one of us didn't enjoy.. we scratched that from the list. Eventually, we came up with about five or six things that we both really, really like....and those are the ones that we focus on.

don't suppose you have a copy of that questionaire do you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Sounds like a good plan.

I am happy for you, sounds like you are on the right track.

I wish my W would allow me to show that kind of affection now. I want to, now. I was like most other H's prior to this, i took my W for granted. That will never happen again.

KMEJ. You lost 50#'s, great! Size 7/8 is a good size. You lose another 20 and you treading into movie star territory where it is a full time deal mantaining that weight, aren't you. I don't know much about dress sizes, etc. You should exercise for your overall health, and the dancing is not only exercise but a fun activity that your kids will remember the rest of their lives. What else can you do with 3 kids? I'll think of some things and get back to ya.

I myself was a former Dline college football player. My weight ballooned to 310 1 1/2 yrs ago. Though noone knew it, all thought I was 280. I am built, muscular. My W loved me at that size so that wasn't it. I am now 227. My W has told me on several occasions how proud she is of me for doing that. People now accuse me of being sick or something. No, I run a couple miles a day, and now don't eat (had a bagel yesterday morn, couple DCokes since). Never hungry, but I will eat a gooood lunch in about 5 minutes and be set for the day.

As for all this other stuff we've gone over, you sound like a dynamite gal. Your H should consider himself lucky. You hang in there, keep improving yourself, for you. Keep working on your M, it will get better.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KMEJ:

I found out yesterday that H has been now downloading the stuff. What is the purpose? Do you suppose I do not turn him on? Okay granted I had three kids, no longer the hotest body. But then again I Had 3 of HIS kids and I am a size 8/9, and 5'6-not sure what the hang up is. Is it because I am blond with blue eyes and not brunette with brown eyes (op)?? What is the deal?

Is there something that works for men to get him interested again?????? <hr /></blockquote>It's not you! Remember that. Repeat it to yourself. HE has a problem. I have BTDT w/my FWH. He told me (during an incredibly eye opening conversation) that he turned to porn b/c he felt he couldn't have ME! It was me he was after all along but we had stopped being nice to each other and well, you know how it goes.

The porn was a bandaid for him and then it became an addiction. A way to ease the pain so to speak. We've since learned that I wasn't wanted SF with him b/c he showed me no affection and he was showing me no affection b/c he wasn't getting SF! What an evil cycle!

Now he's very affectionate and I can't keep my hands off him!

If you can find a way to have some serious hard core talks with your husband about love, romance, and SF maybe you all can get on a better track here.

KMEJ,

I think I can find a copy of the questionaiire. It's pretty basic.

But..you could also make your own. Just think about some of the sexual practices that you and your husband have tried or talked about...and make up a form to rate them on a scale of 1 to 5.

It was a good exercise for us because it dispelled a lot of myths: I always thought my wife wanted someone really adventurous. She always thought the same about me. But..it turns out, that what we really wanted was simplicity and feeling. I also learned a lot about what she doesn't like...and that's imrproved things immensely.

Thanks for the imput. I find it easier to wonder what I did wrong, or what is wrong with me b/c then I have a chance at fixing the problem. If it was my H then I have to sit back and wait for him to make the changes.

I love him very much. I want a SFing relationship with him. I want us to be open both physically and emotionally. I need affection.

That and when I call him for a date I need him not to snap at me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Well..did you give him that list of yours yet?

Also..have you done the EN questionairre?

He will not exchange lists with me. Has his list under password protection. Do I just give him mine?

I did the EN survey, asked him too, he did not, I gave him mine anyway. He never mentioned it. I do not know if he even read it. I would like to think so!!

His list is password protected? He's the one who asked you to do this, right? Why won't he give it to you?

It sounds, my friend, like your husband takes you very much for granted. He figures that you haven't left him...and he hasn't had to change his behavior..so why bother to work on things? Unless there are real CONSEQUENCES...he's probably not going to make an effort.

Maybe if you broach the EN thing in a different way...tell him that it will give you more insight into ways to make him happy...and to keep him more sexually fulfilled. Would that prompt him to do it?

Hi guys...and gals.

SF, oh what a tough topic. My fww and I did our lists about 3 weeks following her return home. I scaled back my true feelings towards SF, and put down 2-3 times per day. That was my halving what I felt were true desires at the time, not just momentary thoughts of sex. The problem is that until you actually do that more than once or twice, you can't really say that is what you want... sort of a tough spot. I still do feel that I could easily handle twice a day though, now, 11 months later. Right now, three times ever two weeks, is about the standard, and nowhere near satisfactory for me. My SF boundaries are near there edge. It really has to do more with looking down the road, and wanting a fulfilling sex life, not looking back at it and wishing I had done something different. And really, it's not that I desire any outrageous stuff, more quantity is the biggest factor. (I really don't want to find myself at 45-50, and have some younger gal that is sexually aggressive taunting me with an internal weakness like that.) If my wife has a desire that I am capable of fulfilling, I say simply speak up, I pretty much have always done anything she ever asked of me.

I can tell you that there are some lurkers on the board that have been going 2+ years, and some that are periliously longer (way too long) and are still waiting for SF. So, that can give you some perspective. I agree that waiting a small time for your fws to regain their footing in the marriage is appropriate. But, here is my approach, agree on it together. Say, honey, I extremely desire you, and I understand, right now, sex is difficult for you...so, let's agree to abstain for a time period. This way, YOU KNOW what you are up against. I think a 1-2 month period is long enough, personally. I would say 1 month. It's long, but not extreme... then, agree to have a night away together...rent a room in a nice spot, away from the house and kids and stuff. Put alot into it, from your side, as a man, get the romantic room stuff, maybe champagne and strawberries, a massage kit, a special bath suite, whatever... for the ladies, go overboard, sex him up.. get the sexy gowns/panties/bras, whatever...get a bit risky. Enjoy the opportunity to grow a bit.

(btw, this does have some biblical merit, agreeing to abstain FOR A TIME together) so, that is why I go ahead and suggest it. I believe, as you are currently experiencing, if it is one sided, with no signs of letting up, it will go for a very long time, and the BS builds up an extreme resentment, and in turn, you have a separation or divorice ensue down the road. Try to be proactive on this issue, I also think the WS has fears that they don't acknowledge, and would rather sweep them under the rug, and let them sit there forever.

that is a good suggestion. If I were getting none at all I would climb the walls. I guess my 1-2 times a week is better then those getting 0 times a week. How horrible would that be?

Is there any WS reading this that can enlighten us as to why it is that you do not want SF with your BS? Or as to how to regain that?
Thanks

Bump this to the top, I'd like to hear from WW and WH.

Hi Bear,
Me again. I asked earlier, hopefully someone is around tonight so that we can get some answers that will help us....
KMEJ

Wait a minute, didn't you have a date tonight? I read something about bowling league a little earlier.

I also read about your struggles right now, so sorry. Why can't our WS's just act like considerate human beings? Is the whole world filled with selfish people?

Hmmm, if you can tell me what all those codes mean, I may be able to assist....I've been in every situation imaginable!

After an affair, sex is all about ownership and competition with the other party involved, not about love anymore, even though you may fool yourself into thinking that it is.

Once the desire to compete has subsided, you will really start noticing how much you loathe your spouse for straying...

*****edit******

[ November 05, 2004, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

Whooo tocg, you sure seem bitter !

You make an interesting point about ownership and competition, and I won't deny I knew when we 'did it' more times after the A than they did IN the affair.

However I'm not sure post affair sex is always as murky as you make out.

I relly don't think of him having sex with her all the time as we have sex. It HAS crossed my mind and then SF stops almost immediately, but thats like twice in the dozens of times we made love since d-day.

Also we enjoy each others bodies in a very loving way sometimes. Lots of touching twitching teasing and kissing.

While I am sure that theres a lot more going on that there was PRE affair, I don't think its all bad.

For weeks I thought I'd never find her sexually attractive ever again, but I just, well, DO !.

I find now that I sometimes DELIBERATELY picture them together to remind me I ought to be angry and resentful. When I realise that, I dismiss the thought. It must be a positive sign of recovery I guess.

WHy are you so bitter TOCG, can you explain how you feel ?

C'mon you really picture them together cause ***edit***! Not for the reasons you say....
The more she appears desireable to others, the more you want to put your mark of ownership on her!

[ November 05, 2004, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

Bitter, not bitter....only jealous ****edit****** BTW, they only ever admitted to one kiss, but to me it's all the same....

[ November 05, 2004, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by T.O. city girl:
 C'mon you really picture them together****edit*****! Not for the reasons you say....
The more she appears desireable to others, the more you want to put your mark of ownership on her! <hr /></blockquote>I hope you kept the recipt for that 'teach yourself mindreading' book TOCG, 'cos it ain;t working. You need a refund ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ November 05, 2004, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

keep fooling yourself, the power of suggestion can sometimes be hypnotizing!

Because your haemorrhoid hurts you to sit down TOCG, it doesn't mean that everyone else who sits easily ALSO has a haemorrhoid but is in denial.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sorry you hurt so much. I hurt too, but not because I am excited by or obsessing about my wifes sex with another man.

Thanks for everyone's replies, and I too am glad for the insight of FWH's and FWW's. I really don't care what they did together as there is nothing now left that is something that just my H and I shared together, I'm sure he did the same things with her that we did together (sexually). My only question is I always wonder if it was better with her than it was with me, I mean, after all, while he was having the A, our SF was virtually non existent. I'd like to get some input on that from FWS's, was it better with the A partner or did you put so much into trying to be a good lover because the OW/OM was new and you felt that you had to prove yourself? One more thing, were you unable to have relations with your spouse during the A due to guilt or because you just didn't want your spouse anymore?

I'm having trouble with S too. Physically great but emotionally difficult.
To answer your question about how FWH feel, my H said that S was not better, only different.
I have a hard time believing that!

Intellectually I know that when a person enjoys sex it is very stimulating and arousing, and body shape/size does not matter. So if you act aroused and sexy your H will be turned on.
I just have to get those pictures out of my mind. I saw her naked and she has a better body than me, is younger, no kids, and has had multiple partners - lots of experience. I only have my H.

So I know what you are talking about and can only hope that time will heal all of these hurts.

My H's OW was also my BF, and thing I really don't get is that she does not look better than me, I always showed that I wanted him and he still had the A. I wonder at times if I would have taken the whole thing easier if it had been someone better or better looking, but in that case I think my self esteem would have taken quite a blow from it as it did anyway but it could have been worse. I guess she was at least easier to talk to than I was for whatever reason, I just don't know.

Bear-
Yes H and I were suppose to have a date last night. He went bowling and then went grocery shopping with his buddy who left to go hunting with him today. I was dissappointed yeah, let him know that too. I have gotten use to it. HE was suppose to be home at 10ish, He called at 10:40 and said he would be home late (figured that already <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) he got home about midnight... I do not think he realizes how hard it is to get someone to watch your kids at 10pm just so you can have some out of the house time to reconnect with your h, second time he has blown me off... At least this time he actually felt badly about it.

AndrewA- took your advise, had a heartfelt conversation about what is lacking in the SF department, and I talked, he talked, and we had a VERY nice night...Hopefully it does not fly outta his head while he is sitting in a deer stand all weekend... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

KMEJ....I'm glad I could be of help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I doubt he'll forget about it...in fact, the thought of it is probably keeping him warm as he waits and waits and waits for that deer.

By the way..I want to add my agreement with what otehrs have said about your situation. If it really is a busive - and it sounds liek it is, at least emotionally - your FIRST resposnibility is to protect yourself and your children.

Thanks AndrewA. I will.

My H and I talked about that last night too. Interesting to hear his side of things. Still my fault of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (his words). H says he does not think it is that bad.

Last night was a good night for conversation, and an ok night for SF. WOuld have been a great night for SF had he not asked me in the middle of things if I would please reconsider the whole wife swapping thing, or at least convince my friend for a 3some. That put the emergency breaks on, we again talked and he said sorry, and we moved on from there. He still wants it, I still say no. He says we will talk again when he gets home on Monday.

KMEJ,

Two things:

1.) If you said 'ok,' would your friend agree to having a threesome? Sorry, but..it sounds like she and hubby have already talked about this. That's another reason to re-consider whether you want her as a friend - and to stand firm on your request that she NOT talk to him.

2.) You should set a clear limit on what is acceptable and not acceptable to talk about. We've had this issue also. My wife got very unformortable with some of hte fantasies I would talk about. We realized that for the sake of our marriage, we'd have to establish and abide by some rules - we have.. and things are better than ever. Make it clear to hubby that talking about other people in bed is a major love-buster for you.

I know that my friend and her husbadn want very much to switch. My friends H thinks I am a tease because I say no. I am not sure what my friend would say. We have had many a conversation the 4 of us while we play cards, and that was joked about and talked about in humor, never realized anyone was taking it seriously...

You are right about the boundaries in bed though.

Obviously, that is NOT a good situation. Because..if she is willing to switch, she's probably likely to do it with him alone. In other words...the "switch" aspect of it may simply be a way for your friend to assauge her guilt. She can have a go at your H, without feeling bad about it, since her hubby will essentially be cheating also.

I'd suggest that you cut this couple out of your life. They obviously want a lifestyle that is different from the lifestyle you want. That's THEIR choice. But...it's threatening YOUR marriage.

Something to think about that is for sure, I am logging out now to go spend the day with my children. Hope you have a nice day as well.

kmej,

What is your faith? What do you want? This is a definite line in the sand point. Think of it not only in the aspects of 'switch', which is absolute garbage... think of it more as your husband asking your permission to have sex with another woman. That is all he is doing. The really disgusting part of this is that he is trying to bring you into it by offering you up to another man, a sacrifice so that he can have sex with that guys wife. Now, unless you are a swinging couple, I think this would upset you tremendously.

As a man, I can tell you, if my wife brought this idea to me, the thought of another ladyfriend of hers...well, of course there would be temptation in it, that is the point...but, the thought of having to give her to another man in the process, well, that is enough to sober any temptation away. I would hazard a guess, your husband is already involved with another lady, if he is offering you away like this. It sickens me and honestly, I wish I could come knock a bit of sense into you.

When you got married, or when your hsuband came home and you two decided to try and reconcile, at what point did you two agree to pimp each other out? I would take this opportunity to say this is the line, you don't understand what I want from our marriage...get on board, 100% or get out. This would be the end of the bowling nites away, the disappearing for time frames beyond 15 minutes, the cancelled date nights, the general disrespectful garbageg he does to you day in and day out...even this stupid hunting trip he's on...you two should be together, or, it should not happen. Period. I'm sorry, I'm a bit upset now as I think this all out...you deserve much better than this. I know you are fighting for the family here, but, is this man, the man you want teaching morals to your children? Is this the example you want them to view for love in a house? For you son to see how to treat his wife? All of these are questions that are extremely relevant if you are simply fighting to save the family. There are selfish expectations, and then there are simple rights we have in a marriage, you are being transgressed upon all the time. Is your father around? I think if I said the things that you are told to my wife, she would talk to her dad, and he would come 'talk' to me. Personally, I wish your dad would come 'talk' to your husband...I know my daughters husband would not enjoy the 'talk' he and I would have if she told me a similair story to yours. I would immediately offer a room to her to get out of the situation, nothing worse than a man trying to entice his wife into sin. GRRRR!

Well KMEJ, I guess I came in kinda late and have not heard of this kind of talk before. Let me get this straight, you were having a serious conversation about your R, sex, and everything else and he pops in questions about wife swapping and 3somes? Again, like the porn, it's all about his needs. I could not even imagine giving any man consent to have S with my W. IMO H clearly does not respect you or your M. Does this talk coincide w/his obsession with porn?

I agree w/Andrew, all contact w/this other couple needs to be cut off. Frankly, I'm getting kind of sick thinking about this. H and this "friend" have engaged in talk about having sex, if I remember right. Now it's about swapping and 3somes? I am confused. I think H is already in A w/friend, or maybe you have already determined that. I thought he had A w/someone else, the phone # woman. Now H talks about S w/friend and her H? What????!!!!

Deleted post. I just have a hard time hearing this.

[ November 05, 2004, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]

Jen,

As requested, on your other post, this FWS will try to lend something to this conversation. You said "My only question is I always wonder if it was better with her than it was with me, I mean, after all, while he was having the A, our SF was virtually non existent. I'd like to get some input on that from FWS's, was it better with the A partner or did you put so much into trying to be a good lover because the OW/OM was new and you felt that you had to prove yourself? One more thing, were you unable to have relations with your spouse during the A due to guilt or because you just didn't want your spouse anymore??

First was the sex better with the OP? Here is the hard part, the sex was better then the sex my wife and I were having around the time of the affair. We were married 7 years, had a young son, mortgage, bills, jobs that were sucking us dry. The sex with the OP was great because it was illicit, new, different, hidden, and detached from reality.

You know, I actually had forgotten that my wife and I once had a great sexlife. It felt that is was so long ago. I was sitting in my basement one day and cleaning up (my wife is a mess and this is something that bothered the hell out of me). Anyway, while sorting through a box of junk I found a bunch of letters tied together. Guess what, they were every love-letter that I had ever written her. I sat on the floor, read every one and simply cried. What had happened to the young man in those letters, that was so desperate to be with his not yet wife? Where did he go?

Some of things I wrote made me blush a little . . . guess what? My wife and I really did have a great sexlife at one time and I really did lover her passionately. Finding those letters is probably the single event that helped to shake me awake.

While I was in my affair I couldnâ€™t have sex with my wife either. I just couldn't. I've never been very good at splitting my affection. I would hide in my woodshop or smoke cigars (she hates it when I do that) and just avoid her. I think that that is why she knew something was not right . . . I couldn't stand to be near her. It was the guilt. I didn't what to face what I was doing so I just pulled away and hid.

My OW was not as pretty as my wife, has less education, etc. At the time she paid attention to me and wasnâ€™t the least bit critical. I think I really liked the attention . . . my wife and I sure werenâ€™t giving each other any at the time.

Anyway, feel free to ask me anything you wish.

Thanks so much for your reply, this is something that I didn't understand before now. Our lives were quite similar to what you are describing, both of us working full time jobs as well as kids and all the other responsibility. I, like your wife have more going for me, the OW in my case didn't even finish high school forget college, she is at least 30 pounds heavier and I'll stop there to keep from sounding like I'm putting her down, but she has never held a job at all. It bothers me tremendously though to think that he had better sex with her than with me (that jealousy thing). I guess it was almost like dating again in a sense to my H. I guess with her always being home and my having a full time job though, she had more time for him than I had.

I think the need for attention and admiration is key. Many men don't any know that they HAVE the need, I think. I know I wasn't aware until recently just how deep my need for those thigns went.

And I think that's a key factor here: it doesn;t really matter what a person looks like, necessarily. What matters is that the other person is "into" you. My wife's affair was with a guy who I think - and she admits - isn't very attractive. But...he showed a lot of interest in her in the WAY she wanted someone to show interest in her (he was apparently very "expressive.")

By the way, CN or some other WS...can you help me understand something? I know that needs often drive people to the point of having an affair. But..what is going through your mind at the actual "choice" moment? I mean..you are already there, in the room and it's obvious that the opportunity exists. I read lots of posts here in which people say they knew it was wrong, but they did it anyway. At some point, it seems to me, a conscious choice is made. Am I correct about that?

Great question Andrew. What I've seen/read so far is that it just happens. There has to be that moment of no return where WS makes the decision to commit the act. For me, that is what hurts the most, then the decision to go back repeatedly.

What is the feeling? Anger at spouse that you are forced to do this. Absolute indifference. Don't care. Thrilling, can I keep this from him. What is it?

I think that I always showed my H that I was "into" him, I doted over everything, telling him how sexy and wonderful that I thought he was quite frequently when we were together. He was one of the people who had a difficult childhood with an alcoholic father, and I wonder if he wasn't capable of absorbing this type of attention, so I don't know that it was an attention deficit in his case. He says that it started as friendship so I guess he couldn't or just wouldn't talk to me. He now says that he talks about his feelings when he needs to, which is NOT OFTEN, what I wonder is, how did he find so much to talk to her about?

This issue is kind of a critical one for me, because the way my wife describes her ONS, she obviously ahd several opportunities to walk away.

I'd view the situation differently if it had been a matter of overwhelming passion which led to the two of them falling into a situation without thinking about it.

But..in my wife's case, there seemed to be a lot of flirting going on.

The basic rundown: OM asks here to dance. he kisses her. They move to the couch. There is a pause and some flirting and teasing. And so on...down the line. At one point, he apparently says that he has to go get a condom.

So...there are a LOT of potential "choice points" here. At every one of those points...she made the decision to continue.

I haven't been able to get any answers from her as to WHY she made that choice. Hopefully, someone here can provide some insight.

[ November 05, 2004, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: AndrewA ]

Very interesting thread.

Comfort, you are just like my H. He couldn't split his affection. I "knew" right away but was lost as to what was up for a few months. He just wasn't into me. EVER. Even though the A has been over since April we still haven't been intimate.

It's so embarasing for me to know that I was forcing myself on my husband. We've only actually had sex maybe 4 or 5 times in the last year, but that's because I was pushy. I've stopped trying and have almost given up hope for any type of physical relationship with H.

We are "temporairly separated" ,have been for 4 months. H feels tremendous guilt of not being able to "Be a husband to me." I know that sex with a pregnant lady isn't every guys dream, but our daughter is now 4 months old and my figure is back, am a size 4-6.

However, he did slap my butt the other day.

I guess romantic love is a slow process? Maybe I should just give up on that. But when I do I feel trapped.

Choice points, exactly. How about afterwards. The BS knows they did wrong, how can they look at their spouse the next day. But in my case, my W continued. How can she go back again? These are questions I will need to have answered in time, along with many others. I have stated many times that I love my W, but to just have her back and not have complete recovery just isn't going to work. First, I need, and am entitled to answers. Second, and most importantly, WE need to learn from our past so that we are not damned to repeat it. I WILL NOT GO THRU THIS AGAIN.

I have to confess a strange feeling that has been bothering me all day. For the first time I can remember, I am breathing easy. I have not talked, emailed, TXT, nothing with my W today, don't care and don't care if I see her tonight either. I really don't "feel" like dealing with her at all today. Is this normal? I still love her, just don't want to deal with it.

Jen,

I guess I wasnâ€™t clear in my last post. I meant to say that at the time of the affair the sex was better with the OW than the sex I was having with my wife. I was emotionally connected to the OW not to my wife. This does matter . . . even to us emotionally simple men. Do you see what Iâ€™m saying? Sex with my wife, early and the marriage and now, is better than anything that I have ever had. We are now very much in to each other . . . no pun intended.

Andrew Said
By the way, CN or some other WS...can you help me understand something? I know that needs often drive people to the point of having an affair. But..what is going through your mind at the actual "choice" moment? I mean..you are already there, in the room and it's obvious that the opportunity exists. I read lots of posts here in which people say they knew it was wrong, but they did it anyway. At some point, it seems to me, a conscious choice is made. Am I correct about that?

Were it only that simple. My OW was someone I knew most of my adult life. We saw each other daily for years and years (work). I donâ€™t know where or when the line was crossed . . . form friends (not really I guess it was an EA for a long time before it was a PA) to something else. There wasnâ€™t one moment when it was fine and then the next we decided to take our clothes off. The intimacy happened over a few years . . . and one day things were just different . . . we were no longer friends supporting ourselves through troubled marriages.

But CN...there WAS a moment when you decided: "I am going to have sex with this person," right?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bear04:
 Choice points, exactly. How about afterwards. The BS knows they did wrong, how can they look at their spouse the next day. But in my case, my W continued. How can she go back again? These are questions I will need to have answered in time, along with many others. <hr /></blockquote>Ask any addict why they keep going back to what they know is bad for them and see what they say. How can someone on heroin, knowing what it is doing to them and the people they care about, still shoot-up? Because they are addicted.

I see BS so often searching for answers to "why?" and "What were you thinking?" and "How could you do this to me?" From my limited perspective, there really isn't aren't may answers to these questions. The fact is I didn't think about my wife at all when I was with the OW. I didn't see it as something I was doing to her . . . it was something I was doing for me. I know that doesn't help, but really that is how it happened.

I just compartmentalized that part of my life, to the best of my ability.

I'm glad I'm not an addict anymore . . . it felt terribe to be so out of control.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AndrewA:
 But CN...there WAS a moment when you decided: "I am going to have sex with this person," right? <hr /></blockquote>I'm sure there was, but I don't remember it. I think it started with a hug . . . not with a decision that I'm going to have sex. . . at least in my case this is how it happened.

In my wife's case, as I said, there seem to be a lot of opportunities for her to turn it around. The fact that she took her ring off, for example, suggests that she knew what she was doing...and that she made a conscious choice to continue.

I can buy the "overwhelemed lover" argument up to a point. I can also buy the fact that a WS doesn't think about his or her H or W while the event is going on.

But...I can't buy the fact that ALL choice is abandoned to feeling. Sure, an addict does what he does becasue he is addicted. But...what about the first time he took heroin? He wsn't addicted at that point. There had to be a CHOICE made.

Wow CN, thanks for sharing. We've gotten way off topic here but this is enlightening. I am sure everybody is different about their feelings immediately prior to. I have always looked at it from MY perspective of what W was doing TO ME, versus she was doing something for herself. Ok free writing here, I take that last statement back. I have always said what she did was a SELFISH act. I have known her reasoning all along, and you said the same thing. It was something you were doing for you. Without regard to who got hurt in the process? (question for you) Isn't that the definition of being selfish?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AndrewA:
 In my wife's case, as I said, there seem to be a lot of opportunities for her to turn it around. The fact that she took her ring off, for example, suggests that she knew what she was doing...and that she made a conscious choice to continue.

I can buy the "overwhelemed lover" argument up to a point. I can also buy the fact that a WS doesn't think about his or her H or W while the event is going on.

But...I can't buy the fact that ALL choice is abandoned to feeling. Sure, an addict does what he does becasue he is addicted. But...what about the first time he took heroin? He wsn't addicted at that point. There had to be a CHOICE made. <hr /></blockquote>I can't justify my choices to have an affair or you wife's. IMO mine was much more damaging . . . there was tremendous emotional bonding . . . the sex was just the next progression of the already inappropriate relationship.

I don't understand ONS. I had a few in college and they left me pretty empty.

About the addict thing. I think that someone may take herion the first time for the thrill, because you are not supposed to do it, it is illegal, dangerous, it might distract you for a while, or give you a place to hide your pain. I think that SOME people begin affairs for the same reasons. The keep coming back because the feeling are addicting.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bear04:
 It was something you were doing for you. Without regard to who got hurt in the process? (question for you) Isn't that the definition of being selfish? <hr /></blockquote>An affair is about the most selfish thing you can do. . . and probably the most damaging thing you can do to your spouse. And part of the reason it is so damaging is because of the complete lack of consideration that you give your spouse. . .

CN, thanks for your honesty and perspective.

I gues I'm caught in the same trap that a lot of other BSes are caught in...we want to understand logically something that likely isn't rational.

I do think, as I've said, that at some point people understand what they are doing and they choose to continue or not to continue.

Understanding WHY and HOW that choice is made, however, is difficult.

I think my FWW is addicted to that new feeling. The feeling of being desired and wanted by a new person...being pursued. She has admitted it. I told her that that worries me that she may give into it again. That's why I had been pushing so hard lately to "affair proof" our marriage. Fix our problems, set boundaries, and renew our passion.

FWW doesn't want to have anything to do with that yet. She says that she needs more time and space. I think she is still in withdrawal. Maybe not particularly from OM but from the new feeling. I miss her so much. My will to save this marriage and my love for her is fading. I don't know how long I can go on like this....receiving nothing from her while she attempts to "find herself".....while ignoring my needs and the needs of our marriage.

Ok CN. But I am having a hard time getting beyond this being anything other than a selfishness. Because whatever reason that is given for an A. Whether it is thrill, escape, whatever, it all comes down to the WS doing something for themselves at the expense of BS and family.

Now, I agree that your example of drug addiction is dead on accurate because that is all about doing something for yourself at the expense of others as well.

I guess the heading is selfishness, and the reasons are subtitled underneath that. Whether it is thrill, release, whatever. That is the way I see it.

Asked and answered, eloquently I might add. thank you very much for your openness. You are helping a lot of us out there CN.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SCdazed:
 FWW doesn't want to have anything to do with that yet. She says that she needs more time and space. I think she is still in withdrawal. Maybe not particularly from OM but from the new feeling. <hr /></blockquote>SCdazed, I think you hit pay-dirt here. It really is the feelings that she is probably missing, it is not the OM, it is just how she felt when she was with him. The "him" really isn't the point.

I too missed how I selt with the OW. I thought it was the OW that I really missed. I just knew that I never felt that way about my wife . . . then I found my old lover letters that I wrote her, she saved every one. I read them and guess what, I did have those feelings . . . I just lost them.

BTW they do come back.

CN can you give me a little more insight here, thanks.

My W said in counseling that the A made her feel good in the short run. It started in spring, I really didn't notice, by August our lives were wrecks. She and OM were also starting to fight as well. She said in MC that in the long run not worth it (no crap). This A did act just like a drug addiction. It eventually consumed her and started destroying everything around her.

Can you add any other thoughts to my analysis? My W, if she saw this, would tell me I am so far off base here. I would have to answer that I am the sane one right now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bear04:
 CN can you give me a little more insight here, thanks.

My W said in counseling that the A made her feel good in the short run. It started in spring, I really didn't notice, by August our lives were wrecks. She and OM were also starting to fight as well. She said in MC that in the long run not worth it (no crap). This A did act just like a drug addiction. It eventually consumed her and started destroying everything around her.

Can you add any other thoughts to my analysis? My W, if she saw this, would tell me I am so far off base here. I would have to answer that I am the sane one right now. <hr /></blockquote>I can't really add much. Your wife won't be able to rationally think about the affair for quite some time, well if she is like me that is. Donâ€™t put too much faith in what she says now, she probably doesnâ€™t know what happened to her, especially if this is out of character for her. People that have serial affairs have very different issues.

Of course the affair started off in spades, if it hurt like hell she wouldn't have kept it going. Everyone is on their best behavior when an affair starts, the brain-chemicals that are swirling around help to make you emotionally drunk. This stuff is very powerful. Once the affair partners begin to see each other as they really are, warts and all, things change. Iâ€™m sure your home life went to hell . . . mine sure did. I felt so much guilt for what I doing. I guess I tried to pick fights so I justify what I was doing because my wife was such a b!tch . . . man, that was a sh!tty thing to do. Sad really.

The BH's in here are getting too wrapped up in knowing 'things'. Guys, why do you watch football? You just do it cuz you enjoy it, it passes time, it is fun. Let's face it, sin is generally fun...some questions really don't need to be asked nor answered.

You guys are entering the downward spiral with your lines of thought...I'm just forewarning you. You could be 8 years from dday, and if you run through the thought pattern you guys are persuing, you can spiral yourself right back to day one. You need to individually take the time aside for these thoughts, let them run their course, and forgive your wives for each of the thoughts you are asking. Then when you start to think about them, even remotely, you can know with a fact, you went down that road and forgave your wife...and turn the thought off. Just quit asking yoruself the question, because you KNOW you have addressed it. It doesn't matter how she did it, what matters is that it did happen, and that you forgive her for it. FOrgiveness doesn't make the bad thoughts go away, it allows you to act appropriately when they come.

I understand complete honesty, and even disclosure...and each BS has a right to know what they feel they need to know... but, quit asking question of morbid curiousity. If you think about it yourself, for a bit of time, you can easily understand how these things happen, they just do. And yes, it is complete selfishness. It has little at all to do with the spouse at the moment of decision.

This is coming from the perspective of a BH, so, I am pretty familair with the thoughts you guys are expressing. I know what you are seeking, but, honestly, there isn't an answer that is gonna fix it for you.

One other thing.. the real question you should be asking:

HOW DID I NEGLECT MY WIFE SO BADLY, THAT SHE WAS WILLING TO DO THIS, WHICH I KNOW SHE LOATHES?

That is the real question, and the answer is something you can fix. This is how to work on rebuilding your marriage.

RookKev is right.

It has little to do with the spouse at the time of the decision.

And I'd be willing to bet that is precisely what chaps the @ss of many who ask.

It is painful to discover that someone means more to you, than you mean to them.

But you have learned it. Morbid curiosity is one of my favorite things..with exception to Hs affair..because it hurts me to realize with each question...that the ultimate answer is that I wasn't worth enough to him to say no.

Not a good thing to remind yourself if you want to stay in your marriage.

Now if you want out..and are building up to that..pray continue..it makes a fine lubricant.

--Noodle

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by RookKev:
 One other thing.. the real question you should be asking:

HOW DID I NEGLECT MY WIFE SO BADLY, THAT SHE WAS WILLING TO DO THIS, WHICH I KNOW SHE LOATHES?

That is the real question, and the answer is something you can fix. This is how to work on rebuilding your marriage. <hr /></blockquote>Ouch . . . Rook that was a bit strong . . . and this is from a FWS. A BS certainly played a part in the state of the marriage at the time of the affair, but at no time did my wife have control of where I fancied to place my penis.

My wife ignored me for a long time . . . spent tons of money . . . worked constantly . . . but she did not cause me to have my affair. That was my choice and it was unethincal.

[ November 05, 2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]

Although I'm going to have to disagree with you RK..on that second bit.

You can't fix those why's the guys are asking... that is the point of my statement. The WS makes the choice, that is all on them, and God will talk with them about that...I'm very clear of conscience on that, but, leading up to that moment, the spouse plays a role in alot of the decisions that led the marriage down that path. Even a 'simple ONS' where someone 'got drunk', approval of going out 'drinking' is playing a role.

I'm not saying the affair is the fault of the partner, likewise to the affair decision in question...the BS plays no role in that decsion, which is also why I believe at the moment of the decision, they are of no concern.

The state of the union leading up to decision time... that is the point. Ever end up driving your car and wonder how you got to be where you were? A turn here, a turn there... suddenly, you are lost. Those turns, those are the decsions, and as the husband, I feel like I'm the one in the drivers seat, making those decisions of where my families 'car' is driving.

Rook,

Believe me, I understand you. My wife and I have talked A LOT about the issues in our marriage that brought her to the point of the A. We've made a lot of changes to strengthen our marriage.

Still, at its root, the decision of whether or not to have sex with someone IS a choice.

The thought process that goes into making htat choice is certainly worth examining.

Nice post Rook. I suppose I pushed her into the affair too.

bear, I think that was sarcastic, hard to tell... I'm going with it was, just because...

You absolutely DID NOT push her into the affair. More car analogy stuff.. You buy a nice car, but never change the oil, never wash it, don't replace the windshield...and suddenly it breaks down. Is it your fault it broke down? No, some parts just plain break. Could you maybe have prevented it? You bet, preventative maintenence has proven to work...likewise, sometimes, crap just happens.... same thin int he marriage. I think some individuals have problems that they just don't even know...

I'll answer in your car analogy. I changed the oil, check the tires, etc. Like you said, sometimes stuff breaks and you don't know why.

I am not like some of the H's you hear about that treat their Ws like sh*t. Drunk, abusive, what have you. I actually thought I was being a good husband and family man.

The only thing I can think about and the way my W was acting like is she wanted to be 22 again. She's 32, can you say MLC? She started hanging out with people who are college age. Going out all the time. Her older bro (36) went back to college, she met his "new" friends. I think these were heavy contributing factors. Suprise the OM was 25. She started acting like she didn't have a family, even ignoring our 2 yr old who I was practically raising by myself (and her own family will back me up there).

Now, on one hand you have this fun loving exciting college scene. On the other side is me, child, mortgage, work, responsibility, etc.

Do you see now how I can think sometimes that I did nothing wrong. Though I know I did, it's still hard to swallow the fact that I did all I could and still this happened. To know that this board is filled with countless BW who wish their H's would treat them just half as good as I treated my W. This really sucks.

Bear,

This is my last post tonight. It does indeed sound that you were a good husband, at least in the general sense. Have you read the stuff about Needs on this site? You can be meeting most of the needs perfectly, but if you aren't meeting the ones your wife values, then it is a total waste. My main needs are affection, sexual fulfillment, and time spent together. My wife could be meeting the needs of domestic service, good mom, financial support, etc. and it would mean boo to me . . . my needs lie elswhere. I suggest you find out what your wife's main needs are . . .

Again Bear, I don't think you did anything that drove you wife to another man. That only happens in bad C/W songs IMHO.

edited to add . . .

Give your wife a kiss Bear . . . FWIW she is home with you. You must be doing something right.

[ November 05, 2004, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]

bear,

As only you know, the state of your union is your business... I believe you sound like you know alot of the problem, she was hanging with the 'wrong' crowd. Not necessarily bad people, just people that are impossible to identify with and not be dragged into their lifestyle, which tends to be one free from responsibility.

And yes, sometimes you can be meeting EVERY need, and the crap still happens. (bad thought here, in the car analogy, we call these lemons, and get rid of them... grrr, please don't misinterpret that, it just sort of sprung on me, I don't think that of you and your wife). We each have our particular demons, I struggle with the person as much as anything else. The selection she made in my case seemed deliberate, finding someone who would 'do it' and yet know that she could leave when I said enough... for you, it seems your struggle is how could you betray me, I was doing all this 'stuff' for us.

I think you probably know how she could. Just no real comprehension of the consequences. Bear, I really hope you find the answers you seek, I just also want you to know, I have gone through the questions you are...try not to beat yourself up in them. Look at them, and work past them, don't dwell in them. I'm almost at a year in recovery now, so I can speak from a bit of experience on this...I still struggle like you and wonder if the crap will go away. It fades in and out for times, and remembering to not get drawn into the bad thought spiral is a key element in recovering.

If you don't believe me, find someone you may know that is 'recovered' from an affair, the BS, and start talking with them on it...start them talking about the betrayal. Soon, you will have them at the bottom, crying, and in a huge wreck. I went through this with someone, and in turn, was asked to not speak about the subject with that person again. It is a scar, forever, and I don't think it matters who your spouse is, be it the same person who betrayed you or a new one down the road...when you think on that subject long enough, it will break you apart.

Hang in there. If you are what you say, your wife will cherish the strength you are showing her now, in the future, and love you all the more for it, and you will have strong security that her love is genuine. (a big btw, I'm not a big believer in the 'needs meeting game', as I believe we can never meet all of our spouses needs, at some point, they have to choose what is right on their own--that is where each individual is completely responsible for an affair)

You know what Rook, you are right, and so are you CN. My BIL who went through told me I can't be thinking about these things or I will drive myself crazy. If you see my posts thgis AM, I was having a good day, on my own. Just started spiraling when I asked WHY? This one thing I may never know and may have to just accept that. Part of life, I guess.

CN about meeting the RIGHT needs. I think you hit it on the head. I did all these things, and wasn't appreciated for them. My energizes were misguided, I guess. I even alluded to it earlier when I said my W probably thought I cared more about the lawn, house, etc. than her. I thought I was doing those things for her, but that is just not what she wanted.

My MC and I had a conversation about love, in love, etc. I am fine with just knowing that my W loved me and didn't need to be reaffirmed with affection, she pointed out to me that is probably not the case with my W. Though it is not easy, maybe not possible to mantain that "spark" of newlyweds, my W needs to have that attention. She doesn't seem to be like me in that she can just keep going on just knowing that I love her, but needs that reaffirmation. She actually called her "high mantainance", not as a slight, just pointing out to me that I need to pay more attention.

I've gone around in a circle today and figured something out. That is the way my brain works. I needed to sound off and you all responded. Thanks for being there today. Later.

Oh and I'd love to give her that kiss, if she'd let me.

Wow, good thread. CN, you probably do one of the best jobs on MB of helping us understand what is going on with a WS. And God only knows, we are all trying to understand. Maybe I'll get to my question for you tomorrow.

It's been 9 months and I still struggle with the "why" question. like Noodle said, it's difficult to believe my H really thinks I'm special if I wasn't worth very much during his A. Concerning the belief that something has to be wrong with the M for someone to have an A, it's a misconception that only troubled Ms can be struck with an A. H and I were probably in one of the best places in our M about 7 months before the EA began. We then experienced sicknesses, a series of deaths, and other additional stressors. I was stretched like a rubber band and couldn't adequately meet his needs. He didn't feel he could come to me. He owns a small business, with an office manager who had him as her target. Life crises, opportunity, and H not having a clue what his weaknesses were (mainly admiration) were his downfall. Yesterday he acknowledged that our M was pretty darn good. I asked him why he didn't realize it then. He said, "I realize it now." Unfortunately I realize now that reality was good for me back then, but this reality is not one I wanted.

Concerning the choice points. That has always bothered me. Like the day after work that H went with OW to this park, because she said she needed to show him a letter she wrote to him, was his big choice point. Sitting with her on that park bench, allowing her to talk about her feelings, and for the 1st time having a secret from me was the start. I asked Steve Harley about choice points, and why couldn't H just have said no. This is what he told me. He said it's like someone saying I can have 4 drinks and still be able to make good decisions and drive. But if I have that 5th drink I'll be in trouble. So I won't have that 5th drink. Steve said what happens if after the 4th drink the person is drunk? Will they make good decisions? They'll probably go ahead and have a 5th or 6th drink. Maybe drive the car drunk. I'm sure my H kept taking little steps thinking "I'll never cross that next line." Pretty soon he was crossing every line.

Steve gave one more example and then I'll end this very long post. Sorry! He said frogs love cold water and of course boiling water would kill them. If you put a frog in a pot of cold water, and slowly bring the pot to a boil, the frog won't know to jump out of the pot and will die. It won't even realize it's dying.

Hope these analogies helped somewhat. I get all of this intellectually. It always helps me when I talk to Steve. Yet my heart doesn't get it yet. My heart doesn't understand how my H bailed on us because it was a hard year. He says he will never have an A again. I asked him yesterday, what happens if I get sick and can't meet his needs? Will he feel the need to be taken care of again? CV

wow looks like you all had a great discussion. Sorry I missed it, however the day with my children was worth it. They are so fun!!

I am grateful you all took the time to answer these questions, as they have been bothering me as well.

How long does it take on average to get over the insecurity that their spouse is thinking of the OP during intamacy???? OR how long does it take the WS to stop thinking about the OP?

While it is true that the BS lament that they weren't "worth enough to their WS for them to say no" I think there is a reason to the affair. The sad truth is that the WS weren't worth enough to themselves to say no. How many confident, happy, healthy, and self assured people have affairs? ZERO. Each and every one of them is looking to feel good about themselves without having to do the work of improving. I don't think there is a cheap fix yet that's not self destructive.

While I may wish that my husband had tried to protect me and save me from suffering through an affair, the truth is that if he was willing to invite this great destruction on himself - there is no way he could've protected me.

KMEJ,

I think length of time is almost irrelevant, with some exceptions... quantity play a larger role.

that is true, every situation is always at least slightly different. Just wish I was not so insecure during times that are suppose to bring you to the ultimate closeness and connection.

:::::because it hurts me to realize with each question...that the ultimate answer is that I wasn't worth enough to him to say no.

If you follow that thought to its logical conclusion, you end up pretty confused. Did your H never love you enough to resist an A or was it a phase he was going thru? Did the opportunity catch him at a bad time or after a conditioning of his mind, that made him view adultery as not as big a deal as it actually is? Does he not (or did he never) have the capacity to love you in the same way as you love him? And did his actions really consitute his not loving you?

My H did a great act of loving me for 30 yrs. However at time of A he was removed from his family and normal environment and was living amongst other cheaters who oogled women constantly. He didn't initiate the act of infidelity but received a totally unexpected letter from an attractive female, half his age - the clear intent being hanky panky (well that's what he thought - she was actually after money - proving once again that if something looks too good to be true then it probably is).

He was like a rabbit startled in the headlights. So taken off guard that a young pretty woman was interested in him - life hadn't prepared him for anything like this to happen - I don't believe he'd ever thought of himself as the cheating type - but now aged 50, the flattery was emmense. The water in the pot was heating up, but like the frog he told himself he'd just stay a little bit longer, that he could control the water temperature anyway. (the frog analogy is not quite right coz frogs don't lie to themselves about the water temperature)

Add the other essential ingredient for an A; Opporunity. I was not around. Like CV55 I was caught up with a lot of serious family stuff. So H contemplates sex with this beautiful young creature - the lure is huge and lust sets in. Obviously his love for me took a nose dive. It was displaced or set aside - wasn't I always going to be there? This opportunity was a one off. I think the love our Ss have for us is running along just fine (apart from in an already dysfunctional M), and then the unexpected happens - attention from OP overwhelms them and their feelings for us. In reality most A's are just bad luck. Wrong place, wrong time - and usually a recent history of wrong mental conditioning. Ideally our S's would know about the trap and be good enough or wise enough to say no thank you.

Their willingness to proceed tells us a lot about them. This is where we examine their self belief, their insecurities, their need to feel good, their boundries, their need to feel attractive and desirable, to feel excited and to be thrilled by the unacceptable and not to mention their dishonesty to themselves and to us.

All our cases are different (and the same) but if my H didn't love me enough to have an A, he's put up with a hell of a lot to stay with me since. I have done everything in my power to punish him for what he's done. Test him out. Make him hurt. Make him pay. I doubt that there are too many FWS's who would have put up with what he's put up with. LBing has reigned supreme in our house since d-day. After 30 yrs of harmony and happiness our M took on a new persona. I didn't care if he left - I think I wanted him to.

He was extremely sorry the moment he was caught - but he wasn't getting off that lightly. Oh you are sorry? Words are cheap. He offered to give up his hugely overpaid job, that he loved, to move back to home country. He sold his beloved vintage sports car, and prepared to go without sex for at least 2 yrs - he was in major damage control. And so he should be. He'd done a sh*t load of damage.

I now don't believe in love. I think it's a cover-all expression we give to our attachment to someone we believe is right/best for us. The only true love that exists is for ourselves. I'm sure most of you won't agree. However realising this has helped me appreciate why A's happen. I don't think I ever would have cheated because I wouldn't have thought it was in my own best interest. Probably what's more to the point is that by cheating, our Ss showed an ability to go it alone, without us. They knew they could lose their M if they were caught. All cheating Ss have to appreciate, even in their dophimined out state, that their S might leave them if they find out. I think most of them think they won't get caught and if they do their S's will get over it sooner than later. But they are willing to risk the M at some level, and this is the difference between my H and me. It might just mean that people who cheat are more inclined towards optimism than those who don't.

I think love is attachment and I've learned that no matter how strong the attachment, it can be weakened by circumstances and enviroment. BSs no longer have the luxury of believing in 'happily ever after'. Not for ourselves and not for our children.

AN

Hi Anyname, haven't seen you for a few days. Hope you're feeling ok. I think I don't have a great deal of time for marital love now. It has been a safety net and it felt very comfortable but now I don't trust it. But I do believe in love for my family and my girls. They take it in turns to sleep in my bed at the moment and they are soft and warm and cuddly. My WH had made my bed a very cold place in the past couple of years. (Well it was warm I suppose when he shagged the OW there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ).

My mum's got me demented with her worrying at the moment. I know it's out of love but can be hard work. TT

Thank all of you so much for offering insight on this thread! I really didn't expect so much, but anyway as I was reading through the last few posts, I have come to the realization that it might not have been our marriage at all. My FWH grew up in a broken home, and his father was, and still is an alcoholic. When we met my H was drinking quite a bit but hasn't had more than one or two in the past 4 and a half years. He said just a few days ago that he remembers his mother being unfaithful when he was young. When his parents D'ed, he lived with his mother for a while, then moved in with his dad. They never stayed in one place long, he remembers a year in middle school that he attended 3 different schools. I wonder if this has embedded insecurity or an unwillingness to remain committed to one thing or person. He doesn't seem insecure but you never know. I asked him if he was okay with the way he feels about himself, and he seemed startled by that question as if he had never really thought about it before. His reply was, "I guess" I think that may be the root of our problem, but will hopefully be able to talk to him about it more tonight. I'll let ya'll know how it goes. I wonder if doting over everything about him was making him feeling unworthy. If he thought that he was undeserving of that attention. They say that a child who is used to recieving negative attention, such as only getting attention when they are doing wrong, will be good at times and then if you give a positive comment, they will turn around and do something to make you believe the opposite. Sorry, I guess I'm rambling, but hopefully some of you understand what I'm talking about.

Jennie, I picked up the comment you made about doting on your H. Actually I think this is a mistake that many BSs make. Regardless of our Ss history. It can give them a false sense of their own importance, and can help them rationalise an A - they usually go thru the "I deserve it" routine. How did they come to feel that way? Sometimes it's their S that makes them feel important. Sometimes it's their high status job, or sometimes it's an abundance of money. Or it could be a combo of all three. A doting S can also make a WS think that you will always be there for them too. <sigh>

::::Anyname, haven't seen you for a few days. Hope you're feeling ok. I think I don't have a great deal of time for marital love now. It has been a safety net and it felt very comfortable but now I don't trust it.

Hi TT, I'm fine. Trying not to spend too much time on the computer. I have a feeling it's contributing to my not sleeping. I really enjoyed meeting you btw. Have thought about you a lot this last week - mostly with frustration for your situation and thinking what an idiot your H is!

::But I do believe in love for my family and my girls. They take it in turns to sleep in my bed at the moment and they are soft and warm and cuddly.

Yes, but most animals nurture their young in what appears to be a loving way. I just think there is so little understood about "love" and what it really is. I was wondering about the Puffin birds. They mate for life. It's just that surely they don't love each other? Isn't theirs an attachment to their mutual benefit? This is what I think humans do - fundamentally. Romantic love is meant to last about 18 months according to the experts and then attachment takes over from it. I believe the bond can be very strong and attachement gives rise to respect and admiration and many other emotions, and we label it love. But we now know that at least 50% of Ss stray from their attachment and usually it's in pursuit of romantic love. Attachment is passed over for the greater thrill of romantic love, which eventually progresses to attachment (another cyle begins) and we're back to square one. We are products of evolution.

Of course you love your girls and are now providing a happy safe enviroment for them. Geez what goes wrong in women that leave their kids for an OM? I've never understood that. But it shows you just how wrong the process can go.

:::My mum's got me demented with her worrying at the moment. I know it's out of love but can be hard work.

Will she take an anti anxiety drug for a few months? I gather lexapro is very good. Better than the old line of zoloft, paxil and prozac. Not sure what it's called in the UK though. I feel for her coz I know what it's like to be a worrier.

Do you have a DVD player. If I see "something to talk about" I will buy it for you to see. You'd love it!

AN

Yes Anyname, have a DVD and look forward to seeing the film. Starbucks beckons soon - I owe you. TT

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> if my H didn't love me enough to have an A, he's put up with a hell of a lot to stay with me since. I have done everything in my power to punish him for what he's done. Test him out. Make him hurt. Make him pay. I doubt that there are too many FWS's who would have put up with what he's put up with. LBing has reigned supreme in our house since d-day. <hr /></blockquote>Anyname I'm just wondering... how did your H cope with 2 years of punishment? I know you were going through your own terrible pain.
Do you both feel that you are now recovering? I am just asking because I am having a hard time with 5 months of what often feels like punishment. I can't say H and I are closer. The thought of 2 years without much improvement...

:::Anyname I'm just wondering...
Do you both feel that you are now recovering? I am just asking because I am having a hard time with 5 months of what often feels like punishment. I can't say H and I are closer. The thought of 2 years without much improvement...

Geez, I don't really know..... Everyone is different. I think I could write a book about why I reacted the way I did, and why my H put up with it. He is of a certain personality type and he just dug in (very patient). He decided that no matter what *&^% I threw at him, he'd put up with it. He decided on an end product. He knew what he wanted. He knew how badly he wanted it. And he knew (or felt) he deserved to be punished. I don't think he cared if he died in the process. Both of us pretty much lost the will to live over his A.

He hung on to the premiss that people get over it - eventually. H has shown himself to have weaknesses. But he's counteracted his weaknesses with great strength and determination to keep the M.

I think every storm eventually blows itself out. I've done what I needed to do - for me. He had his turn at doing what he needed to do and I had my turn. I am sure there are other ways, but this is how it played out for us. I think I'm turning the corner, but it's been so horrendous that both of us don't like to say it's over.

Ours was a 35 yr relationship starting when we were 14 and 15. M was 30 yrs in when A happened. We were soul mates and still are. One thing I did that was out of place... we have had sex over 700 times in the last 2 yrs. I started out doing it to keep him. Then kept it up to allow me to rant, and then got addicted to it.

If I had cheated on my H and he reacted like I did, I'd have given up. Maybe if you give up, your H will realise how much he wants to stay with you. Do make sure that you provide lots of sex btw. Sex (orgasm) releases hormones that cause you to bond with your partner. It should not be underestimated. The more, the better.

Goodluck.

AN

Thanks AN,

your post was really insightful and honest. You sound like you are now able to look back a bit at what has happened and have some perspective. I guess many of us here, me included, are waiting for the day when we are there.

I agree about SF - the only times when I really felt that things were improving between us were while there was a lot of SF. At the moment - H doesnt even want that. I am losing the will to carry on - Id love to know where you H got that well of patience so I can get some too.

thanks

>>>>>M was 30 yrs in when A happened. We were soul mates and still are. One thing I did that was out of place... we have had sex over 700 times in the last 2 yrs. I started out doing it to keep him. Then kept it up to allow me to rant, and then got addicted to it. >>>>

My situation parallels yours even though the reasons are maybe a little different.
We have had sex 5-7 times a week for 6 weeks now. At first it was me needing the connection to WW (mind/love S as opposed to physical release S) but soon it shifted to more of a subconscious dominance thing...keeping her happy at home so to speak (her hormone levels are still pretty high because of the A) but now it seems like we just like to make out with each other. I don't think she is imagining I'm "him" with her like she was probably doing in the beginning.
At first, I was, in a way trying to punish her with sex...way more aggressive and rough than we had ever been (not violent but she knew there was a difference)just to see if I could get some kind of reaction from her. She knew I was hurting bad and kept her thoughts to herself.

>>>>>If I had cheated on my H and he reacted like I did, I'd have given up. Maybe if you give up, your H will realise how much he wants to stay with you. Do make sure that you provide lots of sex btw. Sex (orgasm) releases hormones that cause you to bond with your partner. It should not be underestimated. The more, the better. >>>>>

Had the situation been the other way around, we would probably have split up as well. I'm way more calculating and logical than W. I put a logical spin on an emotional situation that made it at least bearable, if not much fun. I don't think she could have done that. She said she neede to find her own place so she could discover who she was. I suggested if she left she might find me gone when she made up her mind. It would be too late to try to repair our M if she ran away instead of rolling up her sleaves with me and trying to fix it.

I have found since we are on this sex marathon that the after S cuddling has improved a lot and I think this has allowed us to reforge a link that had failed over the years. There is nothing quite so healing as being vulnerable to each other lying spent in the arms of your partner as the "glow" fades. Almost wants to make me take up smoking again!

Hi Brian, Good to hear this. Time is against me. I had wanted to write back to Smur too. So hopefully I can reserrect this thread when time permits. Just glad to hear that your M has taken on this activity. I think it's been very good for us. And it does create attachment. (I saw it on the telly!!! So it must be true!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

AN

Brian,

Wow, how did you come to this decision: "She said she neede to find her own place so she could discover who she was. I suggested if she left she might find me gone when she made up her mind"?

I am struggling with almost no physical affection and what H calls a temporary seperation for the past 3 1/2 months.

Loy, Please don't take anything I say as being an expert opinion...I'm just a freshly skinned husband who has been examining everything I/we have said for the last 2-4 months to try to figure out what has gone wrong and what, if anything is worth fixing or restoring.

"Wow, how did you come to this decision"

I guess it's because the initial impression of most BS's is that we have been so trivialized by the WS's affair that our confidence and impression of self worth has taken a huge hit.
My comment to her was made several weeks after discovery. She was really in terrible shape for the first week (so was I) so we sort of agreed not to try any damage control at all until we had our heads back on straight. Her position right from the beginning was her A was something she needed to do for herself and she didn't know why...that's why she needed time alone to figure out her own feelings and to try to determine what in her had changed to make her susceptible to advances from another man. (she was in an unadmitted and probably unrecognized EA for several months at this time).
My feelings (with a lot of verification from memebers here) was if she left it would be to make it easier to be with the OM without having to answer to or think about me/us.
If she did leave, the longer we were apart the more damage I would suffer. At some point, being a reasonable person, I would have to determine when the line in the sand was getting too close and write off the relationship as being a very bad investment on my part. Did you ever spend too much money on an old car that keep letting you down when you really needed it to work for you? Sometimes you have to junk the thing and take a taxi for a while until you determine if there is a new model out there that will suit your needs.
I think my reasoning behind my comment to her was together we can work on the relationship and on helping her find herself. Apart we couldn't work on one d**med thing together. In her quest to find herself, I would be able to support her on her road to self discovery...to be her anchor so she could find her way back to relatively solid ground. If after her journey, she still needed to go, then that's OK but at least it would be for the right reasons instead of because of the A. We both love each other. She just loves one extra person.
So far she is still here. But I am making plans for a possible split. That part sucks...

Brian,

I know that my H and I have been separated for almost 4 months, the A has been over since April, but I think I'm going to do up the antee and jump start a plan A lifestyle for myself. If anything it'll buy my marriage more time, and give me more self confidence and independence. Reading Ark's post on Plan A are beautiful. It's what my soul needs right now.

Thank you so much for sharing your perspective.

Brian,

I know that my H and I have been separated for almost 4 months, the A has been over since April, but I think I'm going to up the antee and jump start a plan A lifestyle for myself. If anything it'll buy my marriage more time, and give me more self confidence and independence. Reading Ark's post on Plan A is beautiful. It's what my soul needs right now.

Thank you so much for sharing your perspective.