You can't fix those why's the guys are asking... that is the point of my statement. The WS makes the choice, that is all on them, and God will talk with them about that...I'm very clear of conscience on that, but, leading up to that moment, the spouse plays a role in alot of the decisions that led the marriage down that path. Even a 'simple ONS' where someone 'got drunk', approval of going out 'drinking' is playing a role.

I'm not saying the affair is the fault of the partner, likewise to the affair decision in question...the BS plays no role in that decsion, which is also why I believe at the moment of the decision, they are of no concern.

The state of the union leading up to decision time... that is the point. Ever end up driving your car and wonder how you got to be where you were? A turn here, a turn there... suddenly, you are lost. Those turns, those are the decsions, and as the husband, I feel like I'm the one in the drivers seat, making those decisions of where my families 'car' is driving.

Rook,

Believe me, I understand you. My wife and I have talked A LOT about the issues in our marriage that brought her to the point of the A. We've made a lot of changes to strengthen our marriage.

Still, at its root, the decision of whether or not to have sex with someone IS a choice.

The thought process that goes into making htat choice is certainly worth examining.

Nice post Rook. I suppose I pushed her into the affair too.

bear, I think that was sarcastic, hard to tell... I'm going with it was, just because...

You absolutely DID NOT push her into the affair. More car analogy stuff.. You buy a nice car, but never change the oil, never wash it, don't replace the windshield...and suddenly it breaks down. Is it your fault it broke down? No, some parts just plain break. Could you maybe have prevented it? You bet, preventative maintenence has proven to work...likewise, sometimes, crap just happens.... same thin int he marriage. I think some individuals have problems that they just don't even know...

I'll answer in your car analogy. I changed the oil, check the tires, etc. Like you said, sometimes stuff breaks and you don't know why.

I am not like some of the H's you hear about that treat their Ws like sh*t. Drunk, abusive, what have you. I actually thought I was being a good husband and family man.

The only thing I can think about and the way my W was acting like is she wanted to be 22 again. She's 32, can you say MLC? She started hanging out with people who are college age. Going out all the time. Her older bro (36) went back to college, she met his "new" friends. I think these were heavy contributing factors. Suprise the OM was 25. She started acting like she didn't have a family, even ignoring our 2 yr old who I was practically raising by myself (and her own family will back me up there).

Now, on one hand you have this fun loving exciting college scene. On the other side is me, child, mortgage, work, responsibility, etc.

Do you see now how I can think sometimes that I did nothing wrong. Though I know I did, it's still hard to swallow the fact that I did all I could and still this happened. To know that this board is filled with countless BW who wish their H's would treat them just half as good as I treated my W. This really sucks.

Bear,

This is my last post tonight. It does indeed sound that you were a good husband, at least in the general sense. Have you read the stuff about Needs on this site? You can be meeting most of the needs perfectly, but if you aren't meeting the ones your wife values, then it is a total waste. My main needs are affection, sexual fulfillment, and time spent together. My wife could be meeting the needs of domestic service, good mom, financial support, etc. and it would mean boo to me . . . my needs lie elswhere. I suggest you find out what your wife's main needs are . . .

Again Bear, I don't think you did anything that drove you wife to another man. That only happens in bad C/W songs IMHO.

edited to add . . .

Give your wife a kiss Bear . . . FWIW she is home with you. You must be doing something right.

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

bear,

As only you know, the state of your union is your business... I believe you sound like you know alot of the problem, she was hanging with the 'wrong' crowd. Not necessarily bad people, just people that are impossible to identify with and not be dragged into their lifestyle, which tends to be one free from responsibility.

And yes, sometimes you can be meeting EVERY need, and the crap still happens. (bad thought here, in the car analogy, we call these lemons, and get rid of them... grrr, please don't misinterpret that, it just sort of sprung on me, I don't think that of you and your wife). We each have our particular demons, I struggle with the person as much as anything else. The selection she made in my case seemed deliberate, finding someone who would 'do it' and yet know that she could leave when I said enough... for you, it seems your struggle is how could you betray me, I was doing all this 'stuff' for us.

I think you probably know how she could. Just no real comprehension of the consequences. Bear, I really hope you find the answers you seek, I just also want you to know, I have gone through the questions you are...try not to beat yourself up in them. Look at them, and work past them, don't dwell in them. I'm almost at a year in recovery now, so I can speak from a bit of experience on this...I still struggle like you and wonder if the crap will go away. It fades in and out for times, and remembering to not get drawn into the bad thought spiral is a key element in recovering.

If you don't believe me, find someone you may know that is 'recovered' from an affair, the BS, and start talking with them on it...start them talking about the betrayal. Soon, you will have them at the bottom, crying, and in a huge wreck. I went through this with someone, and in turn, was asked to not speak about the subject with that person again. It is a scar, forever, and I don't think it matters who your spouse is, be it the same person who betrayed you or a new one down the road...when you think on that subject long enough, it will break you apart.

Hang in there. If you are what you say, your wife will cherish the strength you are showing her now, in the future, and love you all the more for it, and you will have strong security that her love is genuine. (a big btw, I'm not a big believer in the 'needs meeting game', as I believe we can never meet all of our spouses needs, at some point, they have to choose what is right on their own--that is where each individual is completely responsible for an affair)

You know what Rook, you are right, and so are you CN. My BIL who went through told me I can't be thinking about these things or I will drive myself crazy. If you see my posts thgis AM, I was having a good day, on my own. Just started spiraling when I asked WHY? This one thing I may never know and may have to just accept that. Part of life, I guess.

CN about meeting the RIGHT needs. I think you hit it on the head. I did all these things, and wasn't appreciated for them. My energizes were misguided, I guess. I even alluded to it earlier when I said my W probably thought I cared more about the lawn, house, etc. than her. I thought I was doing those things for her, but that is just not what she wanted.

My MC and I had a conversation about love, in love, etc. I am fine with just knowing that my W loved me and didn't need to be reaffirmed with affection, she pointed out to me that is probably not the case with my W. Though it is not easy, maybe not possible to mantain that "spark" of newlyweds, my W needs to have that attention. She doesn't seem to be like me in that she can just keep going on just knowing that I love her, but needs that reaffirmation. She actually called her "high mantainance", not as a slight, just pointing out to me that I need to pay more attention.

I've gone around in a circle today and figured something out. That is the way my brain works. I needed to sound off and you all responded. Thanks for being there today. Later.

Oh and I'd love to give her that kiss, if she'd let me.

Wow, good thread. CN, you probably do one of the best jobs on MB of helping us understand what is going on with a WS. And God only knows, we are all trying to understand. Maybe I'll get to my question for you tomorrow.

It's been 9 months and I still struggle with the "why" question. like Noodle said, it's difficult to believe my H really thinks I'm special if I wasn't worth very much during his A. Concerning the belief that something has to be wrong with the M for someone to have an A, it's a misconception that only troubled Ms can be struck with an A. H and I were probably in one of the best places in our M about 7 months before the EA began. We then experienced sicknesses, a series of deaths, and other additional stressors. I was stretched like a rubber band and couldn't adequately meet his needs. He didn't feel he could come to me. He owns a small business, with an office manager who had him as her target. Life crises, opportunity, and H not having a clue what his weaknesses were (mainly admiration) were his downfall. Yesterday he acknowledged that our M was pretty darn good. I asked him why he didn't realize it then. He said, "I realize it now." Unfortunately I realize now that reality was good for me back then, but this reality is not one I wanted.

Concerning the choice points. That has always bothered me. Like the day after work that H went with OW to this park, because she said she needed to show him a letter she wrote to him, was his big choice point. Sitting with her on that park bench, allowing her to talk about her feelings, and for the 1st time having a secret from me was the start. I asked Steve Harley about choice points, and why couldn't H just have said no. This is what he told me. He said it's like someone saying I can have 4 drinks and still be able to make good decisions and drive. But if I have that 5th drink I'll be in trouble. So I won't have that 5th drink. Steve said what happens if after the 4th drink the person is drunk? Will they make good decisions? They'll probably go ahead and have a 5th or 6th drink. Maybe drive the car drunk. I'm sure my H kept taking little steps thinking "I'll never cross that next line." Pretty soon he was crossing every line.

Steve gave one more example and then I'll end this very long post. Sorry! He said frogs love cold water and of course boiling water would kill them. If you put a frog in a pot of cold water, and slowly bring the pot to a boil, the frog won't know to jump out of the pot and will die. It won't even realize it's dying.

Hope these analogies helped somewhat. I get all of this intellectually. It always helps me when I talk to Steve. Yet my heart doesn't get it yet. My heart doesn't understand how my H bailed on us because it was a hard year. He says he will never have an A again. I asked him yesterday, what happens if I get sick and can't meet his needs? Will he feel the need to be taken care of again? CV

wow looks like you all had a great discussion. Sorry I missed it, however the day with my children was worth it. They are so fun!!

I am grateful you all took the time to answer these questions, as they have been bothering me as well.

How long does it take on average to get over the insecurity that their spouse is thinking of the OP during intamacy???? OR how long does it take the WS to stop thinking about the OP?

While it is true that the BS lament that they weren't "worth enough to their WS for them to say no" I think there is a reason to the affair. The sad truth is that the WS weren't worth enough to themselves to say no. How many confident, happy, healthy, and self assured people have affairs? ZERO. Each and every one of them is looking to feel good about themselves without having to do the work of improving. I don't think there is a cheap fix yet that's not self destructive.

While I may wish that my husband had tried to protect me and save me from suffering through an affair, the truth is that if he was willing to invite this great destruction on himself - there is no way he could've protected me.

KMEJ,

I think length of time is almost irrelevant, with some exceptions... quantity play a larger role.

that is true, every situation is always at least slightly different. Just wish I was not so insecure during times that are suppose to bring you to the ultimate closeness and connection.

:::::because it hurts me to realize with each question...that the ultimate answer is that I wasn't worth enough to him to say no.

If you follow that thought to its logical conclusion, you end up pretty confused. Did your H never love you enough to resist an A or was it a phase he was going thru? Did the opportunity catch him at a bad time or after a conditioning of his mind, that made him view adultery as not as big a deal as it actually is? Does he not (or did he never) have the capacity to love you in the same way as you love him? And did his actions really consitute his not loving you?

My H did a great act of loving me for 30 yrs. However at time of A he was removed from his family and normal environment and was living amongst other cheaters who oogled women constantly. He didn't initiate the act of infidelity but received a totally unexpected letter from an attractive female, half his age - the clear intent being hanky panky (well that's what he thought - she was actually after money - proving once again that if something looks too good to be true then it probably is).

He was like a rabbit startled in the headlights. So taken off guard that a young pretty woman was interested in him - life hadn't prepared him for anything like this to happen - I don't believe he'd ever thought of himself as the cheating type - but now aged 50, the flattery was emmense. The water in the pot was heating up, but like the frog he told himself he'd just stay a little bit longer, that he could control the water temperature anyway. (the frog analogy is not quite right coz frogs don't lie to themselves about the water temperature)

Add the other essential ingredient for an A; Opporunity. I was not around. Like CV55 I was caught up with a lot of serious family stuff. So H contemplates sex with this beautiful young creature - the lure is huge and lust sets in. Obviously his love for me took a nose dive. It was displaced or set aside - wasn't I always going to be there? This opportunity was a one off. I think the love our Ss have for us is running along just fine (apart from in an already dysfunctional M), and then the unexpected happens - attention from OP overwhelms them and their feelings for us. In reality most A's are just bad luck. Wrong place, wrong time - and usually a recent history of wrong mental conditioning. Ideally our S's would know about the trap and be good enough or wise enough to say no thank you.

Their willingness to proceed tells us a lot about them. This is where we examine their self belief, their insecurities, their need to feel good, their boundries, their need to feel attractive and desirable, to feel excited and to be thrilled by the unacceptable and not to mention their dishonesty to themselves and to us.

All our cases are different (and the same) but if my H didn't love me enough to have an A, he's put up with a hell of a lot to stay with me since. I have done everything in my power to punish him for what he's done. Test him out. Make him hurt. Make him pay. I doubt that there are too many FWS's who would have put up with what he's put up with. LBing has reigned supreme in our house since d-day. After 30 yrs of harmony and happiness our M took on a new persona. I didn't care if he left - I think I wanted him to.

He was extremely sorry the moment he was caught - but he wasn't getting off that lightly. Oh you are sorry? Words are cheap. He offered to give up his hugely overpaid job, that he loved, to move back to home country. He sold his beloved vintage sports car, and prepared to go without sex for at least 2 yrs - he was in major damage control. And so he should be. He'd done a sh*t load of damage.

I now don't believe in love. I think it's a cover-all expression we give to our attachment to someone we believe is right/best for us. The only true love that exists is for ourselves. I'm sure most of you won't agree. However realising this has helped me appreciate why A's happen. I don't think I ever would have cheated because I wouldn't have thought it was in my own best interest. Probably what's more to the point is that by cheating, our Ss showed an ability to go it alone, without us. They knew they could lose their M if they were caught. All cheating Ss have to appreciate, even in their dophimined out state, that their S might leave them if they find out. I think most of them think they won't get caught and if they do their S's will get over it sooner than later. But they are willing to risk the M at some level, and this is the difference between my H and me. It might just mean that people who cheat are more inclined towards optimism than those who don't.

I think love is attachment and I've learned that no matter how strong the attachment, it can be weakened by circumstances and enviroment. BSs no longer have the luxury of believing in 'happily ever after'. Not for ourselves and not for our children.

AN

Hi Anyname, haven't seen you for a few days. Hope you're feeling ok. I think I don't have a great deal of time for marital love now. It has been a safety net and it felt very comfortable but now I don't trust it. But I do believe in love for my family and my girls. They take it in turns to sleep in my bed at the moment and they are soft and warm and cuddly. My WH had made my bed a very cold place in the past couple of years. (Well it was warm I suppose when he shagged the OW there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ).

My mum's got me demented with her worrying at the moment. I know it's out of love but can be hard work. TT

Thank all of you so much for offering insight on this thread! I really didn't expect so much, but anyway as I was reading through the last few posts, I have come to the realization that it might not have been our marriage at all. My FWH grew up in a broken home, and his father was, and still is an alcoholic. When we met my H was drinking quite a bit but hasn't had more than one or two in the past 4 and a half years. He said just a few days ago that he remembers his mother being unfaithful when he was young. When his parents D'ed, he lived with his mother for a while, then moved in with his dad. They never stayed in one place long, he remembers a year in middle school that he attended 3 different schools. I wonder if this has embedded insecurity or an unwillingness to remain committed to one thing or person. He doesn't seem insecure but you never know. I asked him if he was okay with the way he feels about himself, and he seemed startled by that question as if he had never really thought about it before. His reply was, "I guess" I think that may be the root of our problem, but will hopefully be able to talk to him about it more tonight. I'll let ya'll know how it goes. I wonder if doting over everything about him was making him feeling unworthy. If he thought that he was undeserving of that attention. They say that a child who is used to recieving negative attention, such as only getting attention when they are doing wrong, will be good at times and then if you give a positive comment, they will turn around and do something to make you believe the opposite. Sorry, I guess I'm rambling, but hopefully some of you understand what I'm talking about.

Jennie, I picked up the comment you made about doting on your H. Actually I think this is a mistake that many BSs make. Regardless of our Ss history. It can give them a false sense of their own importance, and can help them rationalise an A - they usually go thru the "I deserve it" routine. How did they come to feel that way? Sometimes it's their S that makes them feel important. Sometimes it's their high status job, or sometimes it's an abundance of money. Or it could be a combo of all three. A doting S can also make a WS think that you will always be there for them too. <sigh>


::::Anyname, haven't seen you for a few days. Hope you're feeling ok. I think I don't have a great deal of time for marital love now. It has been a safety net and it felt very comfortable but now I don't trust it.

Hi TT, I'm fine. Trying not to spend too much time on the computer. I have a feeling it's contributing to my not sleeping. I really enjoyed meeting you btw. Have thought about you a lot this last week - mostly with frustration for your situation and thinking what an idiot your H is!

::But I do believe in love for my family and my girls. They take it in turns to sleep in my bed at the moment and they are soft and warm and cuddly.

Yes, but most animals nurture their young in what appears to be a loving way. I just think there is so little understood about "love" and what it really is. I was wondering about the Puffin birds. They mate for life. It's just that surely they don't love each other? Isn't theirs an attachment to their mutual benefit? This is what I think humans do - fundamentally. Romantic love is meant to last about 18 months according to the experts and then attachment takes over from it. I believe the bond can be very strong and attachement gives rise to respect and admiration and many other emotions, and we label it love. But we now know that at least 50% of Ss stray from their attachment and usually it's in pursuit of romantic love. Attachment is passed over for the greater thrill of romantic love, which eventually progresses to attachment (another cyle begins) and we're back to square one. We are products of evolution.

Of course you love your girls and are now providing a happy safe enviroment for them. Geez what goes wrong in women that leave their kids for an OM? I've never understood that. But it shows you just how wrong the process can go.


:::My mum's got me demented with her worrying at the moment. I know it's out of love but can be hard work.

Will she take an anti anxiety drug for a few months? I gather lexapro is very good. Better than the old line of zoloft, paxil and prozac. Not sure what it's called in the UK though. I feel for her coz I know what it's like to be a worrier.

Do you have a DVD player. If I see "something to talk about" I will buy it for you to see. You'd love it!

AN

Yes Anyname, have a DVD and look forward to seeing the film. Starbucks beckons soon - I owe you. TT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> if my H didn't love me enough to have an A, he's put up with a hell of a lot to stay with me since. I have done everything in my power to punish him for what he's done. Test him out. Make him hurt. Make him pay. I doubt that there are too many FWS's who would have put up with what he's put up with. LBing has reigned supreme in our house since d-day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyname I'm just wondering... how did your H cope with 2 years of punishment? I know you were going through your own terrible pain.
Do you both feel that you are now recovering? I am just asking because I am having a hard time with 5 months of what often feels like punishment. I can't say H and I are closer. The thought of 2 years without much improvement...

:::Anyname I'm just wondering...
Do you both feel that you are now recovering? I am just asking because I am having a hard time with 5 months of what often feels like punishment. I can't say H and I are closer. The thought of 2 years without much improvement...

Geez, I don't really know..... Everyone is different. I think I could write a book about why I reacted the way I did, and why my H put up with it. He is of a certain personality type and he just dug in (very patient). He decided that no matter what *&^% I threw at him, he'd put up with it. He decided on an end product. He knew what he wanted. He knew how badly he wanted it. And he knew (or felt) he deserved to be punished. I don't think he cared if he died in the process. Both of us pretty much lost the will to live over his A.

He hung on to the premiss that people get over it - eventually. H has shown himself to have weaknesses. But he's counteracted his weaknesses with great strength and determination to keep the M.

I think every storm eventually blows itself out. I've done what I needed to do - for me. He had his turn at doing what he needed to do and I had my turn. I am sure there are other ways, but this is how it played out for us. I think I'm turning the corner, but it's been so horrendous that both of us don't like to say it's over.

Ours was a 35 yr relationship starting when we were 14 and 15. M was 30 yrs in when A happened. We were soul mates and still are. One thing I did that was out of place... we have had sex over 700 times in the last 2 yrs. I started out doing it to keep him. Then kept it up to allow me to rant, and then got addicted to it.

If I had cheated on my H and he reacted like I did, I'd have given up. Maybe if you give up, your H will realise how much he wants to stay with you. Do make sure that you provide lots of sex btw. Sex (orgasm) releases hormones that cause you to bond with your partner. It should not be underestimated. The more, the better.

Goodluck.

AN