My wife asked me this question the other day. "What more could I have done that would have been as big a wakeup call for you as the affair has been?"

I don't know the answer to that question. Certainly, there were many times that we talked about issues in our marriage. But..I always thought that we were making progress, and we certainly got along well enough. (In fact, we rarely fought about money or any of the other things that married couples usually fight about.)

She did talk a couple of times about the possibility that we would be better off living seperately. But...that never got to the "I am leaving you" stage, and I guess I always just thought that the incremental changes I saw were enough to move things in the right direction. Obviously, they were not.

Anyway, I thought I'd throw the question out there to see waht perspective others might have. Was there something that your WS could have done, short of having an A, that would have provided the kick-in-the-pants needed to make real, significant changes in your marriage?

Andrew - That is a great question. I often ask myself this and have not come up with an answer. Looking back now I see me and WH had problems, but I was incabable of even addressing them, let alone dealing with them. I had no idea what it took to make a M work. I often wonder how long we would have gone on with the way things were if it weren't for the A.

Yes,there was something that my WH could have done before he chose to have an affair(commit adultery):

TELL ME WHAT HE NEEDED!!!!!!

ARGH.This makes me SO mad,not at you andrew,the situation and todays relationships.Why do we have to jump through hoops,mind read or snoop to find out what our spouses are feeling and/or thinking about our marriages and ourselves?? Are we that dense and insecure? Aren't we supposed to be having these conversations with one another at least a few times a year? Are we just talking BS everyday?

You know what,I actually used to ASK my WH if everything was ok,was there anything I can do for him(personally or sexually),are we ok? The response was always what I felt was positive.SO why the he** am I where I am today? My own WH cannot even give me an answer.If he can't,how the heck should I know? My WH and I never fought or rarely even argued either Andrew until this homewrecker came along.

Why does there have to be an earth shattering,completely destructive and painful choice made by a WS to get someones attention?

Marriages are not perfect but half the fun,I always thought,was growing and learning together as a couple,exploring new and better ways to be caring toward each other and improving our marriages.People are still out there looking for the perfect clone of themselves or their "soulmates" (puke) or whatever they think is better than what they have right before them.And you know what,based on the abysmal second marriage/divorce rates and 1-3% of affairs that actually end up in marriage("long term",whatever that means),it's pretty obvious the answer isn't "out there" but within.

Ok,that's my vent for the day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

O

Ok here's what's weird with my sitch.

Pre-A (4 years or so before)
Me: Major depression sets in. Starts with death of my mom, gets worse; change jobs; start school; leave job become student & SAHM
H: Major stresses; job change, shift change (midnights UGH) priorities are job, house, cars, yard, then me somewhere down the list.

By last summer we were basically disconnected. I had a breakdown on vacation in July. Emotionally & physically. I finally got help for the depression and went on meds & started looking for a T.

After vacation I told H that I needed to take care of me for a bit then we could work on the M. At this time H did tell me he was contemplating leaving - just a take break. It hit me how bad things had gotten. I then realized that I could not lose him. I loved him so much. Told him this and asked him not to leave. He stayed. I kicked into Plan A BIGTIME! Started taking care of me and US!

Before vacation H & SOW were 'just friends' but within the following week of our 'save the M" conversation, even after showing I was working on the M, showing that I was taking care of things, taking care of my depression, etc. he STILL entered the A.

I will never understand that. Well, he did give me one explanation. He said he was so angry with me, so angry about the years of my depression that he did it to 'get back at me.' Nice, eh?

I could almost accept the A if I had said "F-you buddy, go ahead leave." and then proceeded to continue to be the same old depressed, LBing, DJing self that I had become. I spent the two months of his A apologizing, taking responsibility for my faults in the M and feeling absolutely HORRIBLE and GUILTY that I let myself get the way I did and how much it had hurt him!

This is one of the things that gets me 'stuck' sometimes. I think about it and have a hard time getting past the fact he could do it even when I was working my butt off to make things better!

You know, I did all I was capable of doing without getting in my wife's face and screaming. I told her many many times "what I needed" and things that were lacking in our M. She would listen and never change, I don't think she realized how serious things were. I do realaize that change in our marriage was not her sole responsibilty and I should have done anything but have the A, but you just don't see it coming. Often times the A is like a frieght train that makes no noise while you walk down the rail road tracks. It sneaks up on you until you feel it's rumble in your feet and turn just in time to see it crush you. It's too late. I don't think I could have done anymore to make my wife see what was coming. I DO think I could have changed my course and stayed off of those tracks regardless of if I thought I would hear the train or not.

Andrew, I do think your wife is doing wonderful (I have been following your story fairly closely) but it seems to me she may be putting too much of the responsibilty for the A on you. This is normal (please don't hold it against her) and I think it's wonderful of you to take some of the load for her. It may be her way of taking some of the load off of herself and maybe for now that's O.K. because someday she WILL realize it was HER that failed in this area. She needs to justify her A to some degree (all of us WS go through this) Yes it was both of you who failed at meeting each others needs and you are doing a wonderful job owning up to your part in the failure of the marriage (your wife is VERY lucky). My wife is the same way, she has been so perfect to me, I love her.

You guys are doing great!

AndrewA,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"What more could I have done that would have been as big a wakeup call for you as the affair has been?"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you can accept that statement without the most vigorous of protests, your chance of FIXING your M is zero.

I agree with 10Girl, it makes my blood boil to just read that " you are the cause of my A" cr*p!"

If it ever come up again may I suggest that you agree with her..... and that you will be working on her prescription for marital harmony with as much vigor as she has.

Please don't bash on Andrews wife, she is doing all she knows how. She has been in NC and holding and treating him very well. She is making small mistakes but overall I believe she is doing the best she knows how! There has been enough bashing of the remorseful WS around here lately to last the next 5 years!

Andrew, your chances of fixing your M with your your current attitude are not zero! You are doing great!

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: SleeplessInSF ]</small>

Sleepless,

I very respectfully disagree with you. Giving your opinion and calling on your past experience to give a truthful, honest and boundary setting reply is not only prudent but one of the most loving actions that you can take on these forums.

While you may not be correct , permitting someone to get away with that type of statement is similar to me stating "I am a Christian but by the way, I don't believe in God".

I 100% understand where the question is coming from. I don't think she is looking for an excuse, just trying to figure out how the R got to the point that allowed an A to happen. I often ask myself (and I am the BS) the exact same question so I don't find it offensive. And trust me I am one of the last people to side with the WS.

Cymanca,

I'm not saying to let her get away with it. My post did say she was putting to much of the blame on him (read it again). I'm saying she will come around in her own time or with a gentle loving nudge in that direction. We, as WS's have alot to learn.

To reply to her as you suggested:
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If it ever come up again may I suggest that you agree with her..... and that you will be working on her prescription for marital harmony with as much vigor as she has.
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is sure disaster. Love and kindness is what fixes a marriage. To be kind and loving even when you know your right and your spouse is
wrong.

Andrews wife deserves a lot of credit for how she well she has been doing. Let's not blow up the little mistakes she makes. She will learn as we all do. If my wife had pointed out every mistake I made with "vigor" we would not be were we are today and may be talking to our lawyers instead.

We are not talking about post A issues right now,the question was, "What could I(WW) done that would have been as big a wakeup call for you as the A has been?".

I think the bigger question is: why did the WW choose an A over ANY OTHER means of communication to get her needs met or to solve marital issues.Let's call a spade a spade shall we? This all goes back to choices and why people choose adultery over speaking their mind,or if they speak their mind as in the case of SIF why he didn't enter counseling himself, or if he did why he didn't discuss the possiblity of a D with the W and so on and so on BEFORE adultery.

What is it that makes Infidelity STILL acceptable in this society as an option to marital problems and/or selfish behavior? There is still a huge discrepancy in what the media portrays A's as and what we as BS's really endure after the fact.

It's great when a BS and a WS can work together at the marriage but why is it that certain people find it easier to get involved with another man or woman outside of the marriage than make appropriate choices? Is it an honesty issue? I certainly think so since most of us as BS's are blown away and shocked at what the WS has done not having had a heads up.Sure there are a few who knew something was really wrong ahead of time but who ever knows it will end up being something as devastating.

I have said before that I feel as though being married and having that trust between spouses is very similar to that of a parent/child relationship.It's such a deep and full trust that you never expect that person whom you love and care for like no other,take vows with and are supposed to protect,to hurt you in such a way that it burns you to the very core of your existence.What a wonderful and special gift that is to trust someone like that but we are robbed of that innocence when a WS makes the choice to commit adultery.I mean,who wants to be looking over their shoulder their whole life while married.Isn't that why we do put "blind faith" in our loved ones because it's supposed to be there? Perhaps this is ideology.But it was what I felt and every indication from WH said to me,it was there until October 11th,2003 when my world came crashing down.

O

Thanks all for your replies!

I think my wife's question was more reflective than anything else. She's really trying to figure out how we got to the precipice. Of course, SHE made the ultimate choice that night. She seems to understand that clearly. Maybe she is putting a lot of the responsibility on me. But..I certainly deserve a lot of it and I am willing to bear it if it will help move our marriage forward.

Ocotbergirl, I agree with you completely. In fact, I told my wife on D-Day that she had lost what I consider to be the greatest things that a person can have in life: the trust of a spouse.

The OM told my wife at one point that I "had to know" about the affair. But really, I had no clue. When she told me she was going out at night to work on her schoolwork and get away from the kids for a while....I figured that's where she was.

Nothing! nothing would be as big a wake up call thats for sure (IMO).

As for the bigger question - Like I said in my post - you don't see it coming. I was one of the people Dr. Harley talks about in his books. The one that thinks it could NEVER happen to me. That made me very vunerable just as he wrote. When clinton got caught in his affairs I thought they should string him up, he was pond scum etc. Trust me on this, you just don't see it coming until it's too late. Was it wrong - YES! Am I trying to justify it - NO! Should I have taken a different avenue to get my EN's met - YES!

There is no excuse to have an A. But the fact is they happen, we all know that. Since Dday I have pondered the same thing. Why is an A so acceptable in our society. So many people are affected. I think the stats say 70% of marriages. I was talking to Steve Harley in my last counseling session. He thinks the numbers are way higher based on his own personal poll. With an epidemic like this why is it not taught in schools and shouted from roof tops of the destruction it causes. Infact I think it's not only become accepted, it's alomost been glamourized. It's sad...

Andrew, sorry for the threadjack, we kinda got a bit off topic.

one last reply on this thread! very quickly!

andrew, you said:
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I am willing to bear it if it will help move our marriage forward.
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This attitude (right or wrong) will save your marriage. Bravo!

I'm just glad you guys(Andrew,SIF) are on the road to recovery.I sincerely hope everything turns out super! Keep at it.

O <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>