Rachel,

I don't think it will all magically go away. If you have made the choice to remain committed to your marriage, in spite of all that has happened, I think you need to face this demon head-on.

Have you gotten any counselling?

You are doing the right thing...reaching out to people. Try not to take harsh, immoral, judgements personally.

Know that you are not alone in this, and that you are not a bad person.

Baba,

If your post was directed at me than please go back and reread my post.

What I said was that an affair is an addiction and cannot be compared to alcoholism because alcoholism is a complex primary physiological disease where the addictive properties are secondary to the disease. Do you see the difference?

And just to set the record straight, I have never tried to break up a marriage!

It is hard to understand how you have been on this forum for so long and still be so bitter. You may dislike me but I feel sorry for you.

I just read a post from Cerri on 2long's "voting" thread that I feel conveys what I am trying to convey here, much better than I ever could.

If anyone is interested, I consider it a good read. I would post the link, but I am technology-challenged in that area. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spider Slayer,

I get EXACTLY what you are trying to convey... without reading cerri's post.

And I think you are bang on!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks Spider Slayer for directing us to 2longs post.
Now I need to get busy and get some errands accomplished before this day whizzes by!~lol~

This stood out to me from what Cerri said.
Her understanding is very comforting!

"Also - if you had ever been the Wondering Person or the Affair Person or if you worked with them every day, the way I do you, would know that they are every bit as much hurt and confused as the Betrayed Person.

I understand that doesn't make an affair ok. It doesn't, nothing does. An affair is always an unethical attempt to solve something - but it doesn't make the people having an affair evil or malicious. It makes them fallible human beings who made a terribly destructive mistake."

P.S. Again Jilliana, thanks for your understanding posts. I have been emailing with my pastor; I think he will help me immensely.
He is very understanding and says over and over that Jesus loves me; just not the sin!
And that our savior ADORES & FORGIVES the repentent heart!

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: MakeYourOwnSunshine ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong>
ML- messages conveyed using the tone and language in some I have seen here do nothing but anger, insult and drive away those you are trying to talk to. Is Rachel's marriage- or husband- really helped by continually characterizing what she did in such terms?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sadww, what is insulting is demanding that Bob P and other BS's characterize a putrid, disrespectful act as a respectful act. I cannot think of anything more abhorrent. If she wants to delude herself, that is her prerogative, but she has no right to demand that others accommodate her fantasy.

Is her marriage served in any way by helping her accommodate her fantasies? I fail to see how that would serve anyone. In fact, I would assert that hurts her.

Are BS' helped in any way when commanded to describe disrespectful behavior as respectful? Of course not. They have as much right to say what they think here as she does.

Nice words are no substitute for the truth and that is what I believe to be the core argument here. There is an odd cultish belief, with a very few, that nice words are the epitomy of virtue and goodness. They are not, especially when its at the expense of the truth. Anyone can say nice words, but not anyone will tell you the truth. [Ted Bundy said very nice words]

I am sorry, but that doesn't cut it with me and you won't be successful in dictating the behavior of me or others on this forum.

One of my favorite verses:

1John 3:18

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> [QUOTE]Sadww, what is insulting is demanding that Bob P and other BS's characterize a putrid, disrespectful act as a respectful act. I cannot think of anything more abhorrent. If she wants to delude herself, that is her prerogative, but she has no right to demand that others accommodate her fantasy. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Umm..actually, I think her initial post said how his choice of words made her feel, ML- it was not a demand:

When Bob Pure said something about the motel where his wife and her OM humped, it just made me feel his description was SO very very disrespectful to his wife.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>

Is her marriage served in any way by helping her accommodate her fantasies? I fail to see how that would serve anyone. In fact, I would assert that hurts her.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How is speaking to her using less hateful words helping her accomodate her fantasies?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>
Are BS' helped in any way when commanded to describe disrespectful behavior as respectful? Of course not. They have as much right to say what they think here as she does. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHo "commanded" a BS to do so?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>
Nice words are no substitute for the truth and that is what I believe to be the core argument here. There is an odd cultish belief, with a very few, that nice words are the epitomy of virtue and goodness. They are not, especially when its at the expense of the truth. Anyone can say nice words, but not anyone will tell you the truth. [Ted Bundy said very nice words]</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who is suggesting that nice words are a substitute for the truth??????? You're putting words in MY mouth here ML. And I don't appreciate it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>
I am sorry, but that doesn't cut it with me and you won't be successful in dictating the behavior of me or others on this forum.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wouldn't DREAM of trying to dictate your behavior ML.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong>
I am sorry, but that doesn't cut it with me and you won't be successful in dictating the behavior of me or others on this forum.</strong>I wouldn't DREAM of trying to dictate your behavior ML. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I am relieved that you didn't have behavior modification in mind when you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"ML- messages conveyed using the tone and language in some I have seen here do nothing but anger, insult and drive away those you are trying to talk to." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You never objected to my point, but rather to my daring to SAY IT. Please forgive me for misunderstanding your intention if it wasn't to suggest I modify my behavior to suit your personal dictates.

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong>
I am sorry, but that doesn't cut it with me and you won't be successful in dictating the behavior of me or others on this forum.</strong>I wouldn't DREAM of trying to dictate your behavior ML. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I am relieved that you didn't have behavior modification in mind when you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"ML- messages conveyed using the tone and language in some I have seen here do nothing but anger, insult and drive away those you are trying to talk to." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You never objected to my point, but rather to my daring to SAY IT. Please forgive me for misunderstanding your intention if it wasn't to suggest I modify my behavior to suit your personal dictates. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ML- It is obviously pointless to try to discuss this any further.

AND while MelodyLane is ranting and raving about my little paragraph about it being hard to get over the addiction of the OM; I don't even think she read the post about my H raping me!

Did you Mel?

MelodyLane, you seem to have a way lately of stirring up threads in a very negative way.
Look how you are arguing with Sadww.
What is going on with you?

Can any of US help YOU?
You just seem so bitter and angry.
Maybe you could start a thread of your own and see if maybe we really can help you deal with whatever is troubling you.

Sincerely, Rachel
(I am NOT being condensending; it may sound like it, but I am not.)

Yes, I did read your post, Rachel, but I didn't imagine with your rather strong reaction to my remarks that you would want my feedback. There are many others who are quite capable of helping you. Take care... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I didn't get a sense of anyone 'demanding' or 'commanding' that extra-marital affair relations be characterized as respectful.

I just wonder whether words like abhorrent, and putrid are necessary. I understand they are used to describe the act and not the person, but, are these words more helpful or more harmful? It is my understanding that most affair participants may be having self-esteem issues. And when a guilt-ridden, hurting, individual with self-esteem issues reaches out for help, do these types of word desciptions help or harm?

Jilliana, I believe her complaint was that his verbiage was "disrespectful," which it should have been when describing disrespectful behavior.

I do think words like "putrid" and "abhorrent" accurately describe the behavior in question. And I think illicit, adulterous sex most definitely qualifies.

Slapping nice words on sleazy behavior will not make it less sleazy. I think describing events in their accurate, truthful terms is always helpful. Being honest about one's behavior is the path to recovery, not glossing it over and using less impactful words.

What is not helpful is using false terminology to help someone bolster a destructive, sick fantasy.

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

For all those Christians out there, just remember when the Bible tells us that words are to "build each other up" and not "tear each other down". I also have heard sermons given with fire & brimstone "You're going to hell if you don't mend your ways" and one filled with love "Jesus loves you & no matter what you've done He loves you anyway". Which drew me closer to God? The one filled with love.

Fact of the matter is, we need to be very careful of the words that come out of our mouths b/c the tongue is a very powerful weapon & can either draw someone closer to God or it can drive them further away. You might be the only link that person has at the moment.

I choose to draw them closer to God. What about you?

cut and paste of Cerri's post in response to betrayedinjersey on "Other Forum" thread:


***"What I can't identify with, and just can't "get my arms around"...is how professing how much the OP and the A is being "missed"...helps the Marriage."***

I know. I've come to the conclusion that most things marriage are completely counter-intuitive. Really is a pain in the you-know-what if one does this for a living.

***"To me...it says exactly the opposite.... whatever time a WS spends on the fantasy, the ended A, the missed OP... is time stolen away from the TRUE task at hand..and that IS recovering the marriage isn't it ?"***

Mmmmm..... let's separate out a couple of things here. Acknowledging and being validated on feelings of pain and loss is not the same as living in the fantasy of 's/he was my soulmate and I'll never be happy without her/him.'

If for some reason I was forced today to give up chocolate forever I would undergo severe feelings of loss, withdrawal, and craving. If those who were in a position to support me through those things denied my right to those feelings or tried to rationalize why I should not be feeling that way my natural human inclination would be to state them even more vehemently and more loudly - until I was heard.

That is not the same thing as refusing to look at the need to eliminate chocolate from my life and recognizing the destruction it might have done. I can both miss something and understand its impropriety at the same time.

I think it might have been Harley who drew the analogy between taking a drink of something that tasted wonderful and then finding out it was deadly poison. Spitting it out and wanting to get it entirely out of one's system does not change the fact that the yummy taste still lingers.

But back to this idea of validating in order to allow someone to move on. I would suggest taking the position of observer in any argument - either here or elsewhere - and seeing this dynamic at play. When people and their feelings/opinions are given recognition (not the same as agreeing with them) they are more ready to move on and to hear the opposite pov. But when they are denied, ridiculed, or worse, the natural instinct is to continue to repeat one's pov until feeling heard.

Basic negotiation and child rearing dynamics. Applies to almost all interactions between human beings.

**"Recovery isn't for the faint of heart, and it's not something that will be successful if both spouses aren't "in it all the way". And how can the WS be "in it all the way" if their is still emotional attachment to the OP consuming their thoughts ?"**

They can't. Until the A ends and the chemical soup, as Star calls it, leaves the brain there isn't a whole lot the WP can do to reengage in the marriage. So the real question then is - what can we, as marriage advocates, do to encourage that to happen sooner? Instead of encouraging them to repeat over and over again with more and more force the amount of pain and loss they feel - until they believe they are heard (or worse, simply give up and shut down) we can hear, acknowledge, and then gently encourage them to continue to move forward.

***"This is all merely speculation on my part, because as I've stated previously, I can really only base my OWN opinions on my OWN experience, and my OWN FWH. Just like everyone else."***

My personal experiences include working with members on all sides of the triangle.

C

Standing Alone, I would also point out that Jesus probably would have failed the political correctness litmus test that some of you advocate.

He was not never known for sacrificing the truth for nice words. In fact, he would be a "sinner" by the standards of some here because he did not mince words. If something was WRONG, he SAID IT WAS WRONG. He did NOT change words around to accommodate someone's fantasy. He said words straight out.

I fear that Jesus was not very politically correct, nor did he consider it "loving" to alter the truth to accommodate sin. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Thanks for posting that 'Sadww'...that was worded by Cerri with remarkable understanding and empathy!

'Standing together'; I AM a Christian that got on the wrong road for awhile.

This is what this thread needs; these words from our Saviour:

"A soft answer calms wrath, but harsh words stir up anger." Proberbs 15:1

So true.
To any that I may have inadvertantly offended, I am truly and sincerely sorry.

I WANT AND NEED to be a kind person to eveyone!

Rachel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ML,

I understand most of us are not qualified counsellors here. Far from it.

Acknowledging that you have made a mistake and seeking help to deal with that mistake takes courage, and honesty. Truth ML. Acknowledging feelings of withdrawal and addiction and seeking help is not what I would characterize as a sick fantasy.

I wonder how many counsellors would agree with you that using such words are appropriate and helpful in healing the pain.

Jillana, I am not a counselor, nor do I claim to be. However, c's are not the arbiters of all truth and I don't need one's approval to say the truth.

I think what takes even more courage is acknowledging the truth about the nature of an affair, which is that they are illicit and sleazy and destructive. I think we can all agree on that.

I did not characterize her recovery efforts as a "sick fantasy" but rather her attitude towards her adulterous, illicit sex with another man.

For her efforts at recovery, I applaud and congratulate her, however, her recovery is certainly not helped by mischaracterizing her affair. Altering the English language does not change the underlying behavior no matter how you try to spin it.

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

ML,

May I point out that my screen name is StandingTOGETHER not StandingALONE. My H & I are standing TOGETHER for this M. Thank you.