</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StandingTogether:
<strong> ML,

May I point out that my screen name is StandingTOGETHER not StandingALONE. My H & I are standing TOGETHER for this M. Thank you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...adulterous, illicit sex with another man. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ML.. this description is truthful.

But, putrid and abhorrent is cruel and harsh in my mind. I don't think it's necessary, and I think it can be harmful to a human being's soul....whether they are BS or WS.

Do you see the difference? Do you understand my point?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jilliana:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...adulterous, illicit sex with another man. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ML.. this description is truthful.

But, putrid and abhorrent is cruel and harsh in my mind. I don't think it's necessary, and I think it can be harmful to a human being's soul....whether they are BS or WS.

Do you see the difference? Do you understand my point? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jilliana, yes I do see what you are trying to say but I don't agree. What is "harsh" and "cruel" is not the words, but the behavior. It is cruel and harsh to have adulterous sex. There is nothing cruel and harsh about the words used to describe such behavior.

If I say that Ted Bundy "murdered" am I being "cruel" and "harsh" or am I being accurate? Do you see what I mean? It is the behavior, not the words that is cruel and harsh.

I do see your viewpoint, in fact I used to think like you, I just don't agree that it's healthy to bastardize the English language to accommodate bad behavior. Words have meanings and we should use them correctly.

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I have tried to keep up with all of the postings of the BS and WS feelings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . I am sure Dreamcacther is amazed about the depth of emotions and number of threads that have spun of hers.

I too, have gained valuable insight from the WS that post here. I am a BS, in my 1st real year in recovery and as hurtful as it may be to hear of the feelings the WS has for their AP, it is still a part of my recovery. I have no doubt my H felt very strongly about his AP, and will probably always have some fond feelings for her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . However, when it came down to the crux of the matter, he chose me. Therefore, his feelings for me are stronger than his feelings for her. Does it hurt that he still has feelings for her, yes, it hurts quite badly.

I believe all of us BS are aware that our partners has/had strong feelings for their AP. How else to explain the depth of the betrayals and lies that our WS exhibited. However, whenever a WS comes to the board and tries to explain how they feel about their AP, it is just as if someone was digging that knife in the gut a little deeper. So, we, the BS, really do not want to hear how wonderful the AP made the WS feel, as we were left broken and bleeding from the magnitude of the betrayal. The only dignity left to the BS is for the WS to acknowledge the depth of pain and betrayal that was dealt to the BS and speaking fondly of an AP does not help the BS recover. It just adds to the pain of the affair.

I understand that the WS is in great pain, I had no doubt watching my H undergo the unexplicable changes to personality, morality and ethics that he was in a great deal of pain. He was having the time of his life also. This dichotomy is frightening to the BS who is watching and agonizing over the choices and behaviors of the WS.

For all of the WS posting here, as a BS, I welcome your input. Just remember we, the BS are recovering from the most horrific events we ever had to live through. I have heard not even the death of a child is as traumatic as the trauma of an affair. I know my trauma was real and extremely painful. Therefore, do not take offense from the BS, as we try to vent to you, a stranger, in ways we cannot vent to our own WS without the consequences of a divorce.

NOMO

Yes I do see what you mean...in fact I stated such a few posts back...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand they are used to describe the act and not the person, but, are these words more helpful or more harmful? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...then my feeling is that your behaviour - your approach, the words you sometimes use is cruel and harsh. But that's just my opinion.

I won't go as far to say your behaviour & your approach is putrid or abhorrent, because it's unnecessary, mean, and could be harmful.

No hard feelings, no disrepect meant...I just don't agree with you on this one.

Adulterous illicit sex with another man..

..is an accurate description devoid of judgement..no suprise it is the tasters choice..

I have a issue though..about the idea that giving up an affair is like giving up chocolate.

Chocolate is great! Why ever would it be used to describe something vile and destructive?

How about this instead..

Assume that you love chocolate..and in your drugged out stupor..you thought that chocolate was what you were eating..until someone pointed out that, actually, you were eating puke. Then you soberred up and realized it was so. Your reaction would [I hope?] be revulsion..not desire to eat more puke.

So the poster in question who pines a bit for the OM...

Insisting that the puke IS chocolate suggests that they have either not come out of their stupor..or do not know the difference between the two. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

--Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jilliana:
<strong>

I won't go as far to say your behaviour & your approach is putrid or abhorrent, because it's unnecessary, mean, and could be harmful.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But you shouldn't say that because you couldn't justify such a statement; whereas I can justify my statements that having adulterous sex is illicit, putrid, etc. The truth is not mean, it just IS. On the other hand, an adulterous affair *IS* mean. Is it mean to point that out? Not by any rational standard.

I appreciate your feedback, Jilliana and mean no disrespect to you either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jilliana:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...adulterous, illicit sex with another man. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ML.. this description is truthful.

But, putrid and abhorrent is cruel and harsh in my mind. I don't think it's necessary, and I think it can be harmful to a human being's soul....whether they are BS or WS.

Do you see the difference? Do you understand my point? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jiliana, seiously what IS an acceptable term for affair sex ?
" making love" ?
"SF" ?
It might feel like love to the WS and OM but its not wholesome, loving or ultimately fulfilling.

I think the 'chocolate analogy' would be like if the person 'enjoying' it found out he/she had diabetus and could no longer 'eat' it without paying severe consequences.

The 'desire' to consume 'the chocolate' and the 'missing the chocolate' would still be there; but in order to 'survive' they would have to stop 'eating chocolate!

(Um, assuming they don't take insulin and keep right on with the chocolate!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Sincerely, Rachel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MYOS,

Nope..doesn't hold water.

Under that same logic..an affair is not only yummy, but reasonably healthfull as well, provided that the affairees have the necessary constitution.

People with diabetes are an abnormality..an anomaly..not the norm..they have a disease.

Not all people who eat chocolate suffer.

All people who have affairs suffer.

People having an affair think that they are eating one thing..reasonably healthy unless you have a disease..but actually they are ingesting something that is poisonous 100% of the time.

I think the puke analogy works better.

--Noodle

Melody Lane- what are you trying to accomplish when you post to someone using words that you believe truthfully represent their actions or feelings?

This whole thing reminds me of the term....

"beating a dead horse"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Jiliana, seiously what IS an acceptable term for affair sex ? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The impact and consequences of affair sex are devastatingly hurtful and painful to all involved. Please don't get me wrong here. I just worry that some people hearing words like putrid and abhorrent may take that on personally, and feel like they are a horrible, putrid, abhorrent person. Seems like a reasonable and rational concern to me, but hey...I may be way out in left field on this one!

I get the MB program. There's alot of great concepts and guidelines. But I've never been one to see things in black and white.

Are all affairs putrid and abhorrent?

Hypothetically speaking, say we have a woman in a mentally, emotionally and verbally abusive marriage for many years. Her husband repeatedly rapes her, beats her and degrades her. She feels like she is worth nothing and she deserves this kind of treatment.

She meets a man at a park who befriends her, and she forms an emotional bond with him. This affair progresses to the physical. She eventually leaves her husband.

Is this putrid?

This type of situation is not so black and white to me. You all can kick me out of MB for thinking like this if you want! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But, do we know Rachel's or anyone's truth? I mean REALLY know her truth??

Well, this *sort of* went off topic didn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> All I can say is what I posted in this morning's new thread which as you can see evolved without reading through THIS one. Go figure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

**********************************************

I see that my other thread has somehow morphed into a huge, long thing and I'm almost afraid to look, lol. I think I finally have somewhat of a handle on things. We all are or should be familiar with ALL of the MB concepts. It is my observation that the original controversial post violated The Rule of Protection in the sense of not being careful of the effect on others in the choice of wording. Truth MUST and SHOULD be spoken but there are many different ways to express it. Some are healing and others are not but the best way is for truth to be spoken in love. It is the best way to assure that the truth can be *heard*.

If I were asked by a BS what goes on in the WW mind during the fog, I could CHOOSE to use my considerable creative writing skills to vividly illustrate a graphic, honest portrait of the delights of SF with the OM and then provide an equally long passionate disclaimer demonstrating my awarness of MB concepts. I would be lynched on this board and RIGHTFULLY SO!!! If I were to be that selfishly cruel I'd have to lynch myself (!) because I would be violating my own code of conduct.

The sad part is that despite any lengthy disclaimer on my part, the DAMAGE would be done and I ask you....why on earth would I CHOOSE to do this? Why would I give in to my baser emotions and hurt others like that? I could defend myself by saying I was being honest, truthful about the way things were/are but in reality I would have been rude and inconsiderate of how any BSs reading might perceive what I wrote.

I would have been the cause of pain and unhappiness because I chose to express myself without regard to the feelings of others. I would have violated the Rule of Protection in regard to other board members. I would have been violating the *spirit* of the rule not the letter of it of course, as we MBers obviously are not married to each other. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And bottom line it's also a matter of common courtesy...just because this board is anonymous doesn't mean we have the right to be mean.

In my veiw, it's not just good enough to be hurtful and then say "Well but it's true!", and rubbing someone's nose in "truth" doesn't build good relationships whether they be marital or between board members. I can't remember where I got this but I taught our kids to examine what came out of their mouths (when they were angry especially) by these three questions:

1. Is it true?
2. Is it necessary?
3. Is it kind?

It was kind of hard to keep them to this actually but I found it a good rule of thumb. Truth spoken in love is healing and helpful, the other way only sows discord. I wish that we could all find healing somehow in spite of this, I really hate to see so many excellent people (even temporarily) leave on a bad note. Peace, KB

My FWW was supported loved and never abused. Taken for granted maybe.

She used my money and sponsorship to start an affair with her mentor in her sport - and old petty criminal and serial womaniser. This formerly upstanding woman paid in MY money for sex in a by the hour motel with a womaniser 15 years her senior.

Tell me THAT wasn't putrid ? Tell me THAT wasn't humping.

Circumstances differ, but you would have me not descibe my situation in my terms for fear of offence ?

If you subscribe to the idea that truth is subjective..then, no..obviously not.

Even in the most extreme of scenarios though..including the one you describe..it does not require an affair to leave an abusive marriage..and therefore the affair is not less of a betrayal because the marriage was bad. Until the marriage has been negated..the rules still apply.

--Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong> Melody Lane- what are you trying to accomplish when you post to someone using words that you believe truthfully represent their actions or feelings? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sad, do I really need to justify using the TRUTH? I think you have that backwards there. It is you that needs to justify not using it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jilliana:
<strong> [QUOTE]

Are all affairs putrid and abhorrent?

Hypothetically speaking, say we have a woman in a mentally, emotionally and verbally abusive marriage for many years. Her husband repeatedly rapes her, beats her and degrades her. She feels like she is worth nothing and she deserves this kind of treatment.

She meets a man at a park who befriends her, and she forms an emotional bond with him. This affair progresses to the physical. She eventually leaves her husband.

Is this putrid?

This type of situation is not so black and white to me. You all can kick me out of MB for thinking like this if you want! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But, do we know Rachel's or anyone's truth? I mean REALLY know her truth?? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jill, it sounds like you have been watching too many A&E chick flicks. Yes, in the example you described, the affair is putrid and illicit. Mental abuse does not justify adultery. Nothing justifies adultery. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't know what you mean by "Rachel's truth," because there is no such thing. The truth is the truth regardless of who perceives it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Circumstances differ, but you would have me not descibe my situation in my terms for fear of offence ?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm tired of trying to explain my point.

Bob...I've read bits and pieces of your story. I'm truly sorry that you have had to experience the devastating pain from your wife's affair. I feel empathy and compassion for you.

And I hope you wife doesn't feel like she's a putrid, or abhorrent person.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong> Melody Lane- what are you trying to accomplish when you post to someone using words that you believe truthfully represent their actions or feelings? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sad, do I really need to justify using the TRUTH? I think you have that backwards there. It is you that needs to justify not using it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HAve I ever suggested that the truth shouldn't be told ML? I'll answer this for myself- not even REMOTELY.

I am NOT looking for a "justification" ML. I am sincerely wondering what you are trying to accomplish. If your goal is simply to vent or to tell someone what you think of their behavior, then I think your terminology probably helps you obtain that goal. If, however, your goal is to help the wandering spouse repair their marriage, then I am asking you whether you think using this terminology facilitates that goal?