And I hope you wife doesn't feel like she's a putrid, or abhorrent person.

I don't know if she does feel that way about herself. I do not feel that way about her. I feel that way about her affair and the sex she enjoyed within it.

I love her and think she is a good person who did a putrid and vile thing hat I hope we can recover from.

Thanks for the kind thought J {{{j}}}

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Jill, it sounds like you have been watching too many A&E chick flicks</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe so. But you know what? I think compassion and empathy, and being able to see between the lines are good qualities to have.

I would hate to be me, if I lost those traits.

I think it's important to remember now that we've gotten off track a bit. This whole hulabaloo began NOT because a WS described her affair as anything wonderful...quite the opposite!

Here is what she said about the OM:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[censored] OM was out of my life...I haven't even thought about OM for months. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This began on a thread where a WS went home and confessed her affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told him because the guilt was eating at me..I want to be right with God and even though I know He forgives me, I wanted H to forgive me too. I just wanted to let ya all know that I'm not worried about him getting physical with me again..he's never been physically abusive...as a matter of fact he's been great to me for the last year or so (before that, we (obviously) had a troubled marriage, towards the end of my A he sort of did his own version of plan A and has been loving and considerate ever since)...I think he just didn't see this coming and lost it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her husband, in blind anger threw a bottle, that cut her. When folks called her H "abusive" she defended him and defended the way that BS's feel:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he was angry and drunk and he did ask me the next day before he left if I was ok. Said he 'didn't mean' for it to hit me, just wanted to throw it off the wall and missed I guess. He's never ever physically hurt me before, so I do believe him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I don't blame my H for his reaction..truly, I don't blame him a bit..I do wish he wouldn't have caused such a ruckus that my kids had to hear and therefore be told of the situation that caused it...but hey, I created this situation, I will now have to deal with it. I've lost the respect of my children forever..ok, my fault I know....I don't see my H as abusive, he (has) loved me with all his heart.. and I broke it..I own that, I really do... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So this thread has gotten far far from the actual events of yesterday. There was no WS talking about their wonderful affair. There was no WS expecting BS to swallow their feelings of pain or disrespecting their feelings.

Why this situation, or these posts triggered such a harsh response, and not a post that actually DID glorify affairs (because this one sure didn't)...I don't really know. I am very confused.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong> Melody Lane- what are you trying to accomplish when you post to someone using words that you believe truthfully represent their actions or feelings? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sad, do I really need to justify using the TRUTH? I think you have that backwards there. It is you that needs to justify not using it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HAve I ever suggested that the truth shouldn't be told ML? I'll answer this for myself- not even REMOTELY.

I am NOT looking for a "justification" ML. I am sincerely wondering what you are trying to accomplish. If your goal is simply to vent or to tell someone what you think of their behavior, then I think your terminology probably helps you obtain that goal. If, however, your goal is to help the wandering spouse repair their marriage, then I am asking you whether you think using this terminology facilitates that goal? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sad, the "terminology" to which you refer is the truth. The truth is not "a terminology," it is the truth. It stands on its own merits. You are asking that I "justify" telling the truth. The opposite of telling the truth is NOT telling the truth, no? Telling the truth has certainly not been challenged in any defensible way so I have nothing TO defend.

If you feel that telling the truth is bad, somehow, then it is up to you to make that case. But until that happens, it is YOU that has to do the justification here, not me.

This is where I jump in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are all affairs putrid and abhorrent?

Hypothetically speaking, say we have a woman in a mentally, emotionally and verbally abusive marriage for many years. Her husband repeatedly rapes her, beats her and degrades her. She feels like she is worth nothing and she deserves this kind of treatment.

She meets a man at a park who befriends her, and she forms an emotional bond with him. This affair progresses to the physical. She eventually leaves her husband.

Is this putrid?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it is. She should have her H arrested, and get a divorce. If she meets a better man, fine, thats great. Don't let it become physical until things are done properly. I despise those who beat thier spouses (both men AND women), and rapists would have no place in this world if I was in charge. But, NO affair is excusable. In your hypothtical situation, the H's actions are loathesome, but the abused W having an affair, doesn't make her action any less loathesome. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Dimmu

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jilliana:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Jill, it sounds like you have been watching too many A&E chick flicks</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe so. But you know what? I think compassion and empathy, and being able to see between the lines are good qualities to have.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As do I, Jilliana. But I believe compassion lies in deeds and truth, not in glossing over bad behavior.

Melody,

If it's the truth that is sought...and as painful as the truth is sometimes....isn't also "true" that the WS recieves pleasure from the affair? That's a hard truth....just like the raw WS feelings...it's an ugly truth...but it's no less true and important in our quest to encourage folks to end these destructive acts.

Sure, affairs are vile. I don't think anyone is trying to dispute that.

However, I think FWS going thru withdrawal should be "allowed" to mention (which is different than wallowing) the fact that it is very painful for them too. Or explain what was going thru their mind when they got into the affair.

Heck, understanding that we were BOTH in pain was crucial to our recovery, and personally I thank the FWS who posted way back then and helped me understand their feelings and POV.

Kathi

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

ML- I repeat- WHAT are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to just state a "the truth" - or are you trying to cause something to happen?

Which is it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> Melody,

If it's the truth that is sought...and as painful as the truth is sometimes....isn't also "true" that the WS recieves pleasure from the affair? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course it is, but its also true that affairs are putrid, harmful and destructive. It would be unhealthy to say otherwise.

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong> ML- I repeat- WHAT are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to just state a "the truth" - or are you trying to cause something to happen?

Which is it? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sad, that is a nonsense question that is impossible to answer. People tell the truth for various reasons depending on the situation. The answer would be different in every situation so it would be impossible to state a cookie cutter answer.

I find it amazing that you would even ask such a question and would assert again that it is you who needs to justify NOT telling the truth.

edit for duplicate post

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Sadfww ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong> ML- I repeat- WHAT are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to just state a "the truth" - or are you trying to cause something to happen?

Which is it? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sad, that is a nonsense question that is impossible to answer. People tell the truth for various reasons depending on the situation. The answer would be different in every situation so it would be impossible to state a cookie cutter answer.

I find it amazing that you would even ask such a question and would assert again that it is you who needs to justify NOT telling the truth. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ML- I'm going to discontinue this conversation. It is obviously serving absolutely no purpose.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, it is. She should have her H arrested, and get a divorce. If she meets a better man, fine, thats great. Don't let it become physical until things are done properly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is where I think some compassion and empathy comes in handy. Being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

She has zero sense of self-worth. She doesn't feel like she deserves anything better. It's a very confusing, and in a way, a very enlightening time for her. Very strange concept to have someone treat her with kindness. Can we cut her some slack? Or is it still putrid?

Yes, this has veered way off topic. I'm sorry, I tend to do that often.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">QUOTE]ML- I'm going to discontinue this conversation. It is obviously serving absolutely no purpose. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I am glad that you can finally see that.

I'm not sure we can be "selective" about truth and still champion truth. Which one of these statements is false?

Adultery is one of the most thoughtless and selfish acts that one spouse can do to another.

Adultery causes great pain for everyone touched by it and destroys families.

A betrayed spouse can act irrationally as a result of such a great loss.

A wayward spouse enjoys the attention they recieve from an affair.

Both spouses must work to repair the marriage after an affair and understand how they got to this awful place.

I don't want to allow one truth and stifle another...all I can really do if I want to learn the truth without creating chaos is to make seeking the truth more important than blame. There is plenty of room for truth without condemnation. I read it here every single day.

Wasn't this thread started to ask some to reconsider leaving or taking a break from the MB boards? Do you think we have accomplished that goal?

This is sad. It's another perfect example of posters using others peoples thread to spew their hatred and distain for the WS. You can't help yourselfs from posting your own strong feelings wherever you see fit no matter what the subject line.

The moderators need to step in and do something NOW!!!!

Star, I think sometimes the truth is self condemning, though, don't you? It is the ACT that is condemning, not the words that accurately describe it.

And the question at hand is, do we alter the truth to make folks feel better about themselves?

I don't see anything healthy about that and refuse to participate in such an endeavor, because it is accpetance of the truth that helps one heal, not hiding from it.

For example, my behavior as a practicing alcholic was absolutely cruel, selfish and putrid. It helps no one, especially me, to disguise that truth. I can call it a rose, but does changing the description, change the underlying behavior? No, it doesn't.

It only helps me stay in a delusional state by rationalizing my behavior. If I can falsely label my alcoholic drinking as "some overwrought poor little housewife who is only reacting to stress" then I have further excuse to drink.

So no, I do not believe that bastardizing the English language to protect someone from the truth is in any way helpful - to anyone. It only aides and abets my delusions and as long as I am delusional, I will stay SICK.

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Sleepless, I sort of felt *unheard* after my one and only post on my own thread so thanks for the reminder of what this thread was originially intended for....to bring YOU back. I thought there were some interesting thoughts myself. debate can be healthy if respectful which is what I was trying to convey in my lone post, don't even know what page it's on. It got lost quick that's for sure, lol.

Don't give up Sleepless, it's a learning experience for all in more ways than one. Some people are more dogmatic than others, while others excell in diplomacy. You'll get both here on MB and that's ok. We are all here as part of the recovery process and if we can keep it respectful, all the better! Hang in there Sleepless, please? KB

Sleepless,

This really has nothing to do with peoples hatred or anything else towards the WS.

What it really has to do with is....challenge.

Some posters on here LOVE to be challenged and they will go to great lengths to try to get THEIR point across without thinking of anyone elses POV.

The Holier Than Thou attitude is what keeps them going and just because they are entitled to their opinion....they give it even where it isn't asked for....and if it's challenged....well then.....it's on.

They will post and post and post.....and really when you look at it....they aren't adding anything new to the subject....they are saying the same thing over and over.

They will be condescending in subtle ways...but of course that's ok....because they are right...no matter what anyone else thinks.

Some know when to quit....some don't.

That's how I see it.

Edited to add...I'm grabbin the marshmellows.....cuz the flames are sure to arrive soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]</small>