</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why this situation, or these posts triggered such a harsh response, and not a post that actually DID glorify affairs (because this one sure didn't)...I don't really know. I am very confused.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that it is because of the bottle throwing incident, that this and a couple of other threads have basically become flamewars. I think that BS's were reminded about how they felt/feel at DDay, but not necessarily reacted. I'm willing to bet that more than half of BS's have some sort of violent thought or reaction. When certain people's feelings on the wrath of a BS were manifested with harsh words, some WS's felt threatened, because no WS wants to believe, or think that people believe that they deserve punishment for thier actions.

I don't believe that WS's deserve physical punishment. Jesus said: "Let those without sin, cast the first stone." But a person who punches someone in the face can get charged with assault. I would rather be punched in the face repeatedly than to go through the trauma my WW has put me through. Controversial maybe, but just a thought.

Hey Mel, check your mail...a lighter subject.... I wish.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Miss Priss:
<strong>

They will be condescending in subtle ways...but of course that's ok....because they are right...no matter what anyone else thinks.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is that "right," Miss Priss? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ November 04, 2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Archuletan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by knewbetter:
<strong> Hey Mel, check your mail...a lighter subject.... I wish. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, Knew. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And I am sorry for the highjacking of your well intended thread.

baba I do not know your history, forgive me, but if you are not a troll, I am surprised you have gained nothing from the insight of the FWS on this board.Truly they have helped me LOVE My wife through understanding her actions better.

Such hope as I have of recovery is borne of the help of my FWS friends.

Please do not be bitter - repented sinners can be the BEST instructors in recovery from sin.

I too have repente dof my pre-affar actions. Though in secular terms my 'sins'were not so great as infdelity, I still contributed to a crap M. We just dealt with it differently...

In a year I hope to look back at the affair as just another crap time in a wonderful long marriage. And I thank recovered folks, FWS and BS for that.

Melody,

I truly do understand what you are saying...just don't want you to think I'm pretending to be dense to refute the decent things you have to say.

Star, I think sometimes the truth is self condemning, though, don't you? It is the ACT that is condemning, not the words that accurately describe it.

Absolutely....it is the ACT that is putrid, but if you will think back...it was the "act" that began this whole thing. Dc had already repented and said the act was awful. It was "she" who was made to feel putrid and condemned and unredeemable. The act itself...is certainly all of those things.

And the question at hand is, do we alter the truth to make folks feel better about themselves?

No, we don't alter the truth to make them feel better about themselves...but we don't alter it to make them feel worse about themselves either. This was a situation where a WS confessed and UNDERSTOOD the fact that her H was angry enough to throw a bottle...how does this apply? How does telling her that she deserved far worse and giving a description of what "he" her husband was entitled to do...serve the "truth" because none of us gets to decide her fate or her punishment. Does that make sense?

I don't see anything healthy about that and refuse to participate in such an endeavor, because it is accpetance of the truth that helps one heal, not hiding from it.

No one is asking for anyone to squelch the truth...but rather to make it about "my" truth..."your" truth...instead of blurting it out in a way that creates MORE pain, MORE chaos. Even good, hard, in your face truth can be about helping instead of hurting. The folks here who cheated on their spouses...didn't cheat on us. They aren't responsible for our pain. All anyone is asking...is for the attacks to be on the "acts" and not the people...especially those who are trying to do the right thing.

For example, my behavior as a practicing alcholic was absolutely cruel, selfish and putrid. It helps no one, especially me, to disguise that truth. I can call it a rose, but does changing the description, change the underlying behavior? No, it doesn't.

Yes chere...but are you personally a putrid person...or was the act of alcholism putrid? Do you "deserve" to suffer forever even though you stopped?

It only helps me stay in a delusional state by rationalizing my behavior. If I can falsely label my alcoholic drinking as "some overwrought poor little housewife who is only reacting to stress" then I have further excuse to drink.

dc was not rationalizing....she was confessing and defending her husband...even when folks called him an "abuser".

So no, I do not believe that bastardizing the English language to protect someone from the truth is in any way helpful - to anyone. It only aides and abets my delusions and as long as I am delusional, I will stay SICK.

WS who are delusional simply do NOT confess the way dc did...why would they? There is a difference, HUGE...between bastardizing language and using language to communicate clearly. I don't really believe you want to condemn people...only to condemn acts. right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is that "right," Miss Priss?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you above all others know that I don't mince words Melody and we have had our share of opposite opinions.

I have my opinion....you have yours.

This post was not directed at anyone in particular.....take it how you wish.

I've been here as long as you......can you really say you've seen as much bitterness in the last 2 days as you have over the last 3 years?

It's rediculous.

Oh Baba, if there were no FWS or WS there would be big lonnnnnng threads asking what's going on in the FWS or WS mind with a whole lot of BS conjecturing (with a credible amount of *authority* I might add) about what they think it could be. It won't take you too long to find the one going right now if you look. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Guessing games during recovery are in nobody's best interest, that is why we advocate Radical Honesty on this site. If a WS or FWS can light the recovery path for a BS while their own spouse is reticent why would you object? Are you okay today? KB

baba,

Hey girl!...you're so late to this "party" it's no wonder you're confused. Nobody is begging unrepentent WS to stay stay on the board...these are FORMER WS who are trying to rebuild their marriages after their thoughtless acts. They have contributed greatly. You'll have to do some forensic MB searching to truly understand this thread.

Star, I just realized to my horror that you think we are talking about DC? We are discussing an entirely different situation. I do agree with you 100% that DC should be given full support.

Her heart is clearly in the right place and in no way did she deserve to be harmed by her H. She deserves all the support in the world for her efforts and does not need to be reminded of her wrongdoing; like you said, she is doing a good enough job of that all on her own! I understand noodle's post but feel it was very illplaced on DC's thread.

My remarks about the truth are directed to a poster on this thread who chastised Bob Pure for an honest characterization he made about his wife's adulterous affair. It was a truthful description to which she objected. I objected to her untruthful characterization of her own adulterous sex.

I agree with everything you said, Star.

Bob Pure, my mate said:


Jiliana, seiously what IS an acceptable term for affaJiliana, seiously what IS an acceptable term for affair sex ?
" making love" ?
"SF" ?
It might feel like love to the WS and OM but its not wholesome, loving or ultimately fulfilling.
ir sex ?

I liked Noodle's "wriggling around on ****EDIT******

Of course I am partial to her prose and will probably be deleted in the blink of eye! So read it quick!!
k

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

How about a little integrity and delete it yourself? Seems like you missed the BASIC point about respecting each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong>

For example, my behavior as a practicing alcholic was absolutely cruel, selfish and putrid. It helps no one, especially me, to disguise that truth. I can call it a rose, but does changing the description, change the underlying behavior? No, it doesn't.

Yes chere...but are you personally a putrid person...or was the act of alcholism putrid? Do you "deserve" to suffer forever even though you stopped?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To answer this, YES, YES, YES, I was a putrid person. I was a putrid person who did very putrid things that bring me great pain just thinking of them. I wrought horrible pain on many people.

But do I suffer because I admit the truth? Hell no! I only suffered when I lied to myself about who I really was. My suffering STOPPED when I faced the truth about myself. Because it was only facing the harsh reality about myself that motivated me to change. I changed ONLY when I ran out of lies and excuses. The truth made me uncomfortable, sure, but it also made me FREE because it caused me to OWN up to who I really was.

And it was a freedom and peace that I have never known. The truth brought me wonderful bliss.

But being putrid is not the end of the story. I changed putrid and became the kind of person that I respect and admire. I stopped being putrid. That is the rest of the story. So I have changed from putrid to being an honorable, loving, responsible, sober individual.

And may God Bless all my friends in AA who REFUSED to allow me to accept myself as "putrid" and forced me to take an honest look at myself EVERY TIME I fell back into my rationalizing ways. They loved me enough to not settle for less. They demanded the truth from me and were true friends to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OK, I hear ya Star. Even truly repentant murdurers can be forgiven. As long as they are not licking thier lips thinking of how great their past murdurs felt to them!

MelodyLane, you don't have to say 'a poster'

Just say Rachel with the ID "Make Your Own Sunshine"

So I guess you think I DESERVE to be abused (edited to say 'punished') by H and also your unkind words?

ok......

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: MakeYourOwnSunshine ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Miss Priss:
<strong>

This post was not directed at anyone in particular </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for clarifying that it wasn't directed at me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

krusht,

I think probably "wriggling around...." was not a fair characterization at the time it was given...to dc....at other times...it might be exactly the wording to help an unrepentant spouse to truly understand the repugnance of this act as BS "think/image/view" that act. For us, the ACT is an abomination....because we feel the results and experience NO GAIN....only pain. Acts are separate from people. I surely don't expect ANY BS (including myself) to characterize a sex act between MY H and another woman as anything remotely resembling "love". It's just too hard for me...too painful...and I don't want to hear it...YES, even if it's true.

But here is the whole context of that quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are about to learn the meaning of the word "sorry". If he chooses to stay with you..it will not be your pain over the loss of your lover [is wiggling around on ****EDIT****really worth this destruction?] it will be the mutual grief over the death [i]of your marriage...and the necessity of dragging your former marriages carcass around with you despite the smell of decay. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was directed at dc...who was repentant already...who confessed. THAT is the source of this uproar, this misunderstanding...this war...this bashfest. NOT the description of the "act".

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MakeYourOwnSunshine:
<strong>

So I guess you think I DESERVE to be abused (edited to say 'punished') by H and also your unkind words?

ok...... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure what you are talking about but it must have been a good movie!

Melody,

You DID change...and that is a truly wonderful thing. And dc changed...and that is a truly wonderful thing too. In my eyes...you were stupid and not putrid. In my eyes...so was dc. And you have both paid dearly for that stupidity...and both fought back!! That deserves a celebration...not a funeral. Maybe this isn't about dc anymore...but that is how this began. And I calmly threw gasoline on this fire....and you helped me LOL! And now it's time to put it out...don't you think? Please help me.