I have been discussing an issue on what we FWW can actually do using the MB plans to rebuild our M.
It seems we get so far and then things seem to go into limbo. At least in our cases thye seem to.
So what I am asking is there anything that BS or FWW did or would want their FWW to do to actually help the recovery process.

It sometimes seems that PLAN A does not fit so what else can we do???

G'Day! I've got some fair dinkum advice.

First of all, I speak as a BH who's R failed, and who is now divorcing my WW. So, I am a harbinger of what can go wrong. Sometimes, you learn more from failures than from successes.

1. Validate. My WW was constantly invalidating me. It didn't matter how I felt or what I thought, rather it was why I wasn't feeling or thinking how she saw I "OUGHT" to. Even after D-day. I was already so unsure of myself in every aspect - my judgement, my powers of observation, my manhood and sexuality - that I was particularly vulnerable to this sort of manipulation. For example, I actually believed that I was responsible for my wife's A. In fact, I deserved it because I was so unable to be what she needed.

The fact is, we have to be honest as to who we are. My WW gave me the distinct impression that she did not love me, but loved what I should be.

2. Forgiveness. I see a lot of FWS who can bleat on the one hand "I've made a mistake, I'm only human. Forgive me!", yet on the other hand they are so unforgiving of their BS's actions which may have caused or contributed to the marital chasm. The fact is, if you want your spouse to forgive you, you must forgive them for the pre-A factors.

Recognize your spouse is human. Sure, you've made a mistake - you don't want to be crucified for it. Well, don't expect your cuckolded H to be perfect. Allow him the same latitude for mistakes - and learning from them - that you want for yourself.

3. Amends. You have committed a grievous injury to your family, but especially to your spouse. You have robbed them of their world, treated them like an inferior, and trampled over their esteem, emotions and self-worth. Sorry isn't enough. "Let's just get on with our lives" isn't, either.

Your spouse has lost that time you were in the A forever. There is no "do over". You owe them for that loss.

That's not to to say "sorry", or to want to build a better future. The key is to recognize that you must make up for this injury you've caused. You have to "make right" the wrong you've committed.

4. Emotional Needs. Chances are, if you were unhappy in your M, your spouse was, too, only they didn't have an A to meet those unfulfilled needs. They were waiting, hoping, praying that you'd do it. They probably would've died for the chance to fill your needs, too - if only they knew what they were.

My WW expected me to intuitively know her needs had changed after childbirth, and to know what they were and how to fill them. When I didn't, she'd nag, cajole, and hector me. When I tried to talk about my needs, they were dismissed (invalidation again).

The trick is to recognize that we do change over our lives, and that we can't expect our spouses to have psychic foreknowledge.

But, what about your H's needs? Do you honestly think you were meeting his? Or, was it his job to meet yours first? In other words, are you the primary taker and expect him to be the primary giver?

As your spouse has an obligation to meet your needs, you have to meet theirs, too.

5. Sex. Your spouse is very likely feeling like the inferior in this department. After all, you chose OP over them, so they must be, right? If not, reassure them. Rebuild their self esteem. Show them that they are more desirable than OP, better, and more rewarding. And, take more interest in your spouse's sexual fulfillment.

However, perhaps it was something that can't be recreated or bettered with the spouse. What then? My WW confessed how much better the sex was with OM (amazing!), how he was bigger and more talented, and how she'd never had anything like it before. Great - how do I compete with that?

6. "Winning" vs "Settling". Don't for a minute let your betrayed think that you are settling for them over OP. If you're making the "big sacrifice" of your soulmate for the sake of your kids, or your spouse, parents, or even the community at large - don't. As betrayed, we only get one life to live, too, and we don't want to waste it with someone who'd rather be somewhere else, with someone else.

Those are my thoughts, shiela. No worries if you don't take 'em. Just have a Swan's for me.

Aussie Wife,
I couldn't have said it better than Uphill.

I would add a few thoughts taken from my personal experience and btw unlike Uphill so far I am still with my wife. It's been 1 year since true DDay and 3.5 years since false DDay.

The above sentence launches me into my first comment. Tell the 100% truth about your illicit relationship with OM. Our recovery has dragged on and off and has often times stalled because I was continually lied to.

After DDay 1 there were many lies that tried to hide the relationship but the big lie was that it was just a friendship. I finally gout FWW to admit to a EA "as defined on that MB site."

So 18 months goes by and she thinks she's safe and I think we are in recovery. Unfortunately I'm not stupid and a few facts kept gnawing at me and I'd ask for the "truth."

So a year ago the truth that it was a PA finally comes out. She just couldn't understand that not only had recovery been delayed but it had been damaged from continuing to lie for such a long period while maintaining that we were recovering.

After real DDay, she then refused to give any more details as to the where, when, how and why of the affair. Her refusal made the need to know more acute with me. Had she answered my initial questions I probably would have dropped it.

The resentment kept growing on my part.

Next, I suggest that you take a proactive role in your recovery. Don't just stand by and wait for Aussie to "come around". Do whatever you can to become a better person. Buy and read any and all relationship books that you can.

All the Harley books
Not Just Friends
The Road Less Traveled
The Men are from Mars... Venus series (the original and the "in the bedroom" are the best imho

I say this again from experience bc my wife imho did very little to improve herself or our marriage. She hated going to counseling. I was the one that had to go to a psych. I was the one that needed counseling. I was the one who needed to take AD meds (eventhough it was her refusal to see that she was depressed that got her into her A in the first place)It was all about me. I was the problem. Her affair was just a bad mistake. The complete burden for change and self improvement was on me.

Our sexual relationship started to change. I had wanted more variety in our sex life. My wife had always refused. It was "her way or the highway." After true DDay when my wife would refuse to try anything new my resentment went thru the roof. I thought," so you meant to tell me that you won't try anything new with me but you didn't mind F'ing the OM?" Sorry if that is too blunt but it is a reality.

Have you ever felt humiliated? Until my W's affair I had no idea what it felt like. Mix anxiety with melancholy or depression and you've got an idea. It is especially strong when Aussie is around people who know about the A or even those who he believes might know about it. An outgoing person will become reserved. They won't participate. An introvert gets buried.

I don't mean to undermine the pain of female BSs but I firmly believe that male BSs feel more humiliation from their wives actions. Society has a special disdain for men whose wives cheat. It's even more punishing to those men who decide to stay in the marriage and not divorce. We're weak. We're cuckolds. We're losers. My guess is that Australia's view on this subject is even more severe than here in the US. We are mentally castrated. You have given all of your sexual power to another man.

Conversely the OM is feeling pretty studly especially if he's married since that means he was f'ing two women at the same time. If your OM is married and his wife doesn't know yet you need to let Aussie tell her. This will help diffuse Aussie's feelings of inferiority to this piece of garbage.

So take the normal confusion, anger, denial that a BS feels and mix in the foot dragging actions of A FWW and you have a recipe for a prolonged, bumpy recovery.

Even if you take all of Uphill's and my advice and you become the ideal FWW, understand that it will be a three steps forward two steps back process. Don't be confused by the fact that there will be good days and there will be horrible days.

Understand that your relationship has changed forever. The genie can't go back in the bottle.
So do all that you can to make it a better one.

Mac

PS I got tired of my wife saying she was sorry when her footdragging actions told me that she was probably just sorry that she got caught. Actions speak louder than any words.

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

Hi AW,

Uphill & CWMAC have covered this pretty well... I just thought I'd add a few things that my wonderful W is doing for me now while I'm deployed.

* We IM or e-mail every day.
* She keeps me informed of the 'everyday' happenings with our girls.
* She tells me about her latest 'home imporovement' project.
* She tells me about her volunteer efforts with the local food bank and women's shelter.
* She tells me about her latest Bible study and what she's learning.
* She tells me that she's proud of me.
* She tells me that she loves me.
* She flirts with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
* She prays for me.
* and she lets me know what her prayer needs are so I can pray for her.

I know this may sound silly, but my W and I are closer than we have ever been... I think that this deployment has made us realize that we both have to make a determined effort each and every day to meet each other's needs.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Uphill, cwmac, and rif90

thankyou so much for your advice and ideas. I think if FWW and BS had more open interaction on ideas we could get it right more often than not. I suppose we FWW are not your favourite people and truth to tell, some BS can scare the h3ll out of us at times.

I wish I did as I was advised a few months ago because I was the classic 'avoid the subject & details'. But I'm working on our M every day bit by bit.
You are so right, I can NEVER take it back but oh how I wish!

Its a pretty humbling and sickening experience to realise the full extent of pain you have caused. I kind of understand how many run from it. But running as I've learned won't fix it. I'd crawl over broken glass to do that for him even knowing there are no guarantees in this, just hope.

I do pray your wives and spouses come to really work with you if they haven't yet. Just remember to not only forgive them but ask them to forgive themselves in time to. Just don't forget the lesson. I really find that hard to do to forgive my own actions. Don' t think I can until he has fully.

Thanks again guys.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Uphill & CW mac what wonderful insight. I wish my Squid was in a place to read that and respond to it.

Maybe she will be soon.

* Aussieswife you have the right attitude to recover which is wonderful. I pray my Squid gets that in time too. We're only six weeks or so into recovery though.{{{Aussie & Aussieswife)))

What a great thread. 'Specially Uphill's reply.

I haven't got much to add, well maybe I do, but since Dylan and I are not technically in recovery, I'm afraid that if I go to much into the types of behaviours I'd wish to see from her, I'll just be making myself miserable.

BUT, I do want to back up the 'emotional needs' angle. Do the questionaires, find out his most important emotional needs and make meeting them important to you.

There see. I told you that would happen. Now I'm dwelling. Darn.

J

Telling your husband you wished every day you could take it back.. that is was horrid, that if you could change anything in the world it would be that you never would have done it. Affirming to him those things...that they weren't worth it... that will go a long ways towards letting him know he is valued.

Uphill:

Hit it on the money!



FWW needs to understand that the strong confident proud BH has been replaced by an insecure man who is undertaking the formidable task of rebuilding the marriage. Not only must the BH forgive the greatest betrayal of a lifetime, but he must also nurture an unstable WW with all the irrational behavior of the fog.

Then BH has to wait out the withdrawal and hope that WW recovers the love she had before the affair. IN the mean time, the FWW may still be in contact with OM making the withdrawal last forever.

The FWW has no clue about how to make married life a pleasant experience for the BH. The BH is puzzled because the WW had lots of ideas on how to please the OM.

If the marriage fails it is not the affair that destroys the marriage, but the inability of the FWW to get out of her own way. The fog is so bad that they don’t see the obvious and allow the BH to drift into resentment and then------------------------ the END comes unexpectedly as the BH’s love banks finally becomes empty.

<small>[ November 06, 2004, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

AW -
Hmmmm. What could my WH do to make it up? Nothing. What is done is done. He trashed our marriage, family and life for OW. That pretty much says it all. I have no good memories of our life together anymore, they are all colored by his A.
The only thing that would work for me is if he was truly sorry, and wanted to start the marriage over, and have a completely different marriage.
I know the party line here is that BS was not meeting WS's needs, but I can tell you that MY needs were not being met. WH is so-so in bed, nothing spectacular. I always felt last on his list. He was quite self-absorbed.
Actually, I'm just glad to be rid of him.

Seriously AW:

The thing to do for the FWW is to show lots of affection for the BH------------- and I really mean a lot of affection including SF, conversation, and emotional intimacy. In short---- all the things that were provided to the OM should now be provided to the BH in greater quantities. Otherwise resentment will come in and could end the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> Seriously AW:

The thing to do for the FWW is to show lots of affection for the BH------------- and I really mean a lot of affection including SF, conversation, and emotional intimacy. In short---- all the things that were provided to the OM should now be provided to the BH in greater quantities. Otherwise resentment will come in and could end the marriage. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would like to second that. I as a BH, feel an urge to have that affection from my WW. If I don't get enough of it, I feel like we have relapsed a bit. Just tonight, My WW and I spent about 45 minutes or so, hugging, kissing and holding each other. Now I am at work, and feel that it wasn't enough, and I kinda feel like maybe something is wrong. Kinda silly, but it's just how I feel. I guess, it's my insecurities coming through. I feel like I want so bad for this M to work, and wonder if my WW feels the same way sometimes. When we are holding each other and being affectionate, all seems well with my world, when we are not, I start to wonder. Of course, my WW is still in contact with the OM (as far as I know), so that makes it worse. For all the time we spend being affectionate with one another, it seems negated by one phone call to OM.

MIF?

If WW and OM kissed like that they would have ended having intercourse within minutes. BH needs to be treated the same way by the WW otherwise we end up feeling as second rate lovers. Sure, OM is new flesh and he can elicit a stronger erotic response, but at some point the FWWs need to understand that the BH deserves the same consideration. It is not rocket science------- go for it!

OK, maybe FWW cannot go for it because she is in withdrawal with lots of residual romantic feelings for OM. At least let BH know so he can make the appropriate decisions.

<small>[ November 07, 2004, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

This thread is very useful for me, as a FWW trying to rebuild, and I guess I am very aware that it takes a lot of time and patience. I have another question that no one here seems to have covered. Since Dday, when I told him about my ONS, H has become very defensive and will not really admit to having ENs at all. After a long period in which he talked about wanting to sleep with other women himself, we now seem to be over that. But he won't initiate affection and doesn't want to talk about our R or feelings. He won't go to MC or to an IC. Its my impression that this is for fear of being blamed for pre-A problems, which is not something that I would do- I just think we both need to discuss our M and our problems fully for it to survive.

I know from the past that SF is very important to him and so I am trying to initiate this often. But as for other things, I am never sure if I am doing the right thing (ie give affection or give him space, iniate talk about A/M/feelings or just joke with him, etc, etc), and since he is so defensive, he won't tell me what he wants or feels.

Did any BHs on here react in this kind of defensive way and if they did, what helped?
thanks!

Smur:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know from the past that SF is very important to him and so I am trying to initiate this often. But as for other things, I am never sure if I am doing the right thing (ie give affection or give him space, iniate talk about A/M/feelings or just joke with him, etc, etc), and since he is so defensive, he won't tell me what he wants or feels.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ONS---------- your H is a lucky guy!

Anyway---------------- give him lots of affection. Our manliness is demolished and it can only be repaired by affection. I cannot think of anything more positive to rebuild the manhood, pride and, esteem of the BH.

If BH has a question answer it without hesitation. Don’t clam up! In the long run clamming up makes life for the BH much more miserable. Get the nasty stuff out of the way and later BH won’t have that much to talk about.

If you cannot give SF due to withdrawal or depression at least let BH know. Otherwise he is going to feel very crappy and rejected. I am assuming you have no withdrawal so this should be easy for you.

In an affair it is likely that both spouses share some responsibility, but IMHO, the adulterer must be the one that is trying real hard to make everything work. Don’t fall into the usual custom of having the BH do all the work.

Expose your heart to the BH. This is the emotional intimacy that leads to PA in most affairs. Why not have this emotional intimacy with the H? It could lead to greater romance down the road.

And lastly, if OM had some great positive attributes------------- your H does not want to know about that. Many WWs want to mention these attributes so they can feel better about what they have done. Forget about the OM’s positives and if there are negatives let your H know. As I said he is down and out. He needs the WIFE now more than ever to come out of this crisis.

Good luck, you are on the right track!

<small>[ November 07, 2004, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Smur,

Just wanted to address your questions...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have another question that no one here seems to have covered. Since Dday, when I told him about my ONS, H has become very defensive and will not really admit to having ENs at all. ...Did any BHs on here react in this kind of defensive way and if they did, what helped?
thanks!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect that your H is dealing with alot of shame and humiliation over your ONS. When I found out about my W's 'first' A, I was so humiliated and shamed that there was no way that I was EVER going to go to 'marriage counseling'. I thought that something was 'wrong' with me... that I was lacking... and I sure wasn't going to go to some MC and have them point out all of MY faults.

I totally agree with CWMAC... The BW hurts just as much... but we BH are emasculated by just about everyone and everything after our W's A's. I suspect that your H sees MC as a way for YOU to feel better about the A and to point out all of his faults.

I think that the MB concepts are sound and that they work very well for many couples... But when I read Surviving an Affair, I felt that this book was 'too easy' on the WS... and didn't address my real feelings as a BH. Our MC gave us a copy of Torn Asunder by Dave Carder, and for me, this book nailed my feelings and helped me deal with my W's A's in a much better way. You might want to get a copy of Torn Asunder and see if your H would read it...

MC, IMHO, is a MUST if you want to rebuild your M... but you have to be patient with your H. If he is resisting MC, then I believe that you can help guide him towards MC by showing him through your actions that you are willing to change yourself first, and not try to 'force' him into MC to change him.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Dear Smur, and all others,

I think both BS and WS have the same problem, essentially, even if they have different reasons for it - they want to know for sure that their partner still loves them, still wants them.
That their partner really MEANS it when he/she says "I love you". That their partner really wants SF with THEM.

The problem is that both the BS and the WS have every reason NOT to believe or trust that this is the case, each again for their own reasons.

We have to coax each other like we would coax a scared animal. Gently, carefully, patiently. Screaming "You don't understand!!" will not get you anywhere, of course, even if you're absolutely right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .

The more we can get in a good place with ourselves, the better we can cope with our partner's problems and fears (BS or WS). So every effort we make to get in a better place with ourselves (counseling, sport, "grooming" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , good books..) will help the M and the partner.

We have to convince our partner that we are for real. That we're not pretending. Honest, respectful talks about our feelings and needs are necessary, to compensate for the lies at first maybe, but also because that's simply the normal thing to do in a good M.

The fact that the very person we trusted to "watch our back" didn't respect or love us enough to not lie and cheat on us for his or her selfish gain is devastating.
What better way than to be very honest from now on to prove to our spouse that we realised we were wrong and that we'll not make that mistake again?
What better way than to honestly and respectfully talk about what you need and what made you look elsewhere?
It might be hard and painful. But it will show that you are developing the backbone needed to say "no" to any future temptations and to face your own needs and vulnerabilities and deal with them in a mature, loving, honest way.

Everyone

I have to say a big THANKYOU to you all.

THis is the type of information we need.
Sometimes we think we are on the right track and then find somewhere we made a blue.
This has helped me so much and I think will help other FWW's.
I've been trying out a lot of what you guys said and I think its working!!! Well at least based on last night anyway.hehe

Believer I know you tried everything before arriving at the position you have. Sometimes it just is too late isn't it.
Thinking of you and keeping you in my prayers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We have to convince our partner that we are for real. That we're not pretending. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have told my wife countless of times that I love her and want to stay married. However, wife sometimes thinks I am plotting to divorce her. This is frustrating since my heart is 100% into the marriage. Nevertheless I keep hearing my wife saying that I will eventually leave her. One wonders if this is a projection from the part of the WW and perhaps she is the one that thinks about leaving. So we are back to the original question and in essence NO ONE TRUSTS ANYONE in this relationship.

This is the dilemma:

I keep thinking my wife is still in love with OM despite what she says.

I doubt whether the WW and OM are really in NC mode.

Wife thinks I don't love her. I will never understand this one.

Wife thinks I am planning a divorce. Don't get this one either. I am 100% committed.

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
Wife thinks I don't love her. I will never understand this one.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My dear Stanley,
I do understand this.
She can't believe you would still love her after the hurt she caused you.

You might make your statement more complete, like:
"I love you. I love many things about you. I hate the part of you that was so stupid and selfish to have an A. But you are more than just that. That part of you is under the magnifying glass right now, and it's terrible, but deep down I do know it's just a part of you, of our history, and that we will get through this together.
So sometimes you'll think I hate you. Sometimes I think you hate me, too. But there is so much about you that I like, that I admire, that I love. I want to get back to a good place in our M where I can see and feel those things all the time. Will you work on it with me so we can both get back into a good place again?"