Bob- thank you so much - well- for being you! You NEVER fail to put a smile on my face and lighten my heart. My thoughts and prayers will continue to be with you and your wife as you walk the road of recovery.

Foreverhers- thank you also for your spiritual guidance. Your posts have comforted me on dark days.

TMCM- as another caffeine addict, how could I not like you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thank YOU for your thoughtful replies and ideas these past few months.

KMEJ- I continue to be very concerned about you. Please consider using some of the resources I posted for you.

FL- You are a brave soul- and someone that I greatly admire. My prayers continue for you and your family.

Rae- I hope that your H is able to forgive - and to work on your marriage together. I will continue to keep you in my prayers.

After having a night to think I have to to admit that I am torn about leaving MB. I HAVE usually found compassionalte help and guidance here. And the input from the BS side has been very very helpful.

But, I'm not certain if staying is the right thing for me- or my marriage- right now. *THE* thread that has been discussed ad nauseum felt like a literal slap in the face- and quite frankly not only infuriated - but sickened me.
And I did GET that the poster was not suggesting that WS should be carved up, killed or tortured...I GOT that she felt only that all WS DESERVED it.

What I found even worse then the initial post, however, was the agreement from many of the posters who commented- including some of the supposed *wise ones* here.

As a WS who came here full of shame, guilt and remorse- and who was looking for compassionate support and a friendly hand, I felt violated by these posts. You know what? Maybe the WS are the *guilty* ones- but we hurt too...we ALSO are in emotionally fragile states when we seek help here. I chose to stay in my M, I chose to confess to my H- and I have paid and paid and paid. I AM NOT discounting the horror or price that my H has paid for MY actions- I am simply saying that I have already been to hell- and am trying to find my way back - and that this post was like rubbing salt into my open wounds...

These emotions will not help me heal- or help me heal my marriage.

Let me add one thing as well. I quite honestly have no problem with the fact that BS despise the OM or OW- frankly I would be surprised if that were not the feelings. But I do wonder how many would-be posters are turned off- or frightened away- by some of these types of posts. Maybe that doesn't matter to the community here, I don't know.

Not asking anyone here to tell me what to do- or to even care if I stay or go...probably a number of posters here would be just as glad if I left...just muddling it through in my mind- and in this post.

Hi Sadfww,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know what? Maybe the WS are the *guilty* ones- but we hurt too...we ALSO are in emotionally fragile states when we seek help here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I finally realized this fact, my W and I really started connecting... Everyone is different, but for me, this was a turning point in our rebuilding process.

I do hope that you continue to read and post here... I understand that the other post upset many FWW/FWH... and I'm sorry that it ever got to that.

I think that you will still find many BS that are further along in their rebuilding process that will offer you some good advice.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Sad fww,

If it is a certain thread that is upsetting you so...then please just STOP reading it and move on to something more helpful to you.

It will eventually move off the page and more current topics will take its place. (really)

Personally, I Prefer to have ALL the differing points of view voiced here.

It has helped me gain valuable insight into my W's actions, as well as thought process.

Its helped me to see her perspective better (as I now KNOW what she's done/thought/felt is NOT unique to HER alone).

WE Need the contributions of our WS's. (And they need us as well).
It's what makes this place WORK ...as opposed to becoming a mutual pity party / bi*ch fest.

To all considering leaving:
Please take a day or 2 or a week and let the emotions calm down.
Hopefully after some reflection you'll decide its BETTER for All concerned for you to stick around and participate (not just lurk).

To any of the new ones- Just keep in mind that these ARE very volatile subjects and there is much pain out there. NOT everyone can recognize when and to whom, certain ways of communicating are appropriate or effective.

Don't let a few comments or even what you may consider a bad or Hurtful thread deprive you of the mostly wonderful gifts of this place.

Unfortunately, these "firefights" break out from time to time. Then they calm down and things get back to normal. Sorry for any that got caught in the cross fire.

IMO most of it came down to people just not "getting" the others point of view.
Sadly with this type of medium....its going to happen.

Bottom line is stay......we are all stronger with you than without you.

(hey, where did my post go??...cause this was my last one I wrote? Sorry about that sadfww....oh well, guess I'll just let it ride)

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

Sad-
I would personally miss your posts very much. As a FWW and currently a BS in alot of turmoil (WH still fogged), I get a tremendous amount of hope that my H will return.(aka: not be WH anymore)

Your (and other WWs) genuine reflections and sometimes hurtful but frank confessions of what you'd thought and gone through before contrition are what help me keep the light on. These are acts of kindness that you share with us.

You do what you must, but I'd like you to stay...

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: GivvinTime ]</small>

grrrr....side note....I'm getting really tired of having to log in again after just about everything I do on the system!!! There! Now I got that out of my system!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I did GET that the poster was not suggesting that WS should be carved up, killed or tortured...I GOT that she felt only that all WS DESERVED it.

What I found even worse then the initial post, however, was the agreement from many of the posters who commented- including some of the supposed *wise ones* here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SadFww - If you need to take a "sanity break," then by all means take one. But here's a couple of things for you to consider.

1. For the better part of 2 years I virtually restricted my reading and participation on MB to the Recovery Forum. The raw emotions and pain were to "internalizing" for me on the JFO and GQ II forums. I needed to reach a point of healing where I could "handle" someone else's pain before being able to hopefully offer calm, compassionate, realistic help for their situation. And there are plenty of people on the Recovery Forum who need just as much help and who are really "into" trying to recovery their marriages, no matter how "hard" it seems at the time.

2. If I can pick up on this part of your post for a minute, "I GOT that she felt only that all WS DESERVED it," I'd like to say something that I hope you will hear and understand.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Rom.3:23-24 NIV

What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:

"There is no one righteous,
not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.
The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." (Rom.3:9-20 NIV)


SadFww, when we come to know in our hearts that WE are guilty of so much against a Holy God, that we have been the recipient of incalculable, undeserved, grace through forgiveness by God, as a result of what Jesus Christ endured for us while we were yet sinners and hopelessly lost,
we know that no matter how much personal hurt and pain we might feel as the result of actions by our spouse, we CAN continue to love and to forgive AS we ourselves have been forgiven.

AND, we don't have to manage that feat all by ourselves. God, indwelling in us, provides all that is necessary for us to "forgive as God has forgiven us" and to begin a "new creation" in our marriages.

SadFww, no one wants anyone to leave, especially not those who are "trying." Very few of us are already "there," having completed the journey and are now "recovered."

But if you need a break, take one. MB will still be here. You might even be surprised by the "welcome back" that you receive when you return. Many have been.

God bless.

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

SadWW-- I dont think you should let what was said in that other thread affect you so much. Those are oppinions of just a few people here. The majority of people dont think that us WWs should be killed, or stoned, or whatever. We already have enough punishment from our own self hatred, and from some of the behaviour of some BS.
I know my husband and I, are not completely out of the woods yet, and he has not completely forgivven me, but he will never wish anything bad upon me.
If it does not work out with us in the future, we will part our ways, but with the best wishes for each other.
So, I wish you would consider staying and keep on posting here. You are a very good person, and you are going thru a lot, to let some posters here get to you.
My husband Stanley loves to read what you have to say. And I am sure if you would convince your husband to come and read here, he would make a 180 degree turn in your relationship.
I am sure that when JL gets back here, he will try to convince you to stay. And you would not say no to him, wouldn't you?
I wish you the best SadWW!!

Sincerely

MYRTA

well I would be very sorry to see you go sadfww you have been very encouraging to me during some dark moments.

It would be a great loss to so many here. And the many who read but never post.

All my hugs <<<<<<<sadfww>>>>>>>

It matters not what is good for others, but what is good for YOU.

Would it help you to leave? Or are there still ideas and support to gain by being here?

sadFWW you are not tied to this board ! It is not a stay or go absolute option. You CAN take a break, contribute or not from this community ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It is very sad that you and several other well respected contributors were in a sensitive state for whatever reason lately and such poison erupted around a couple of controversial posts.

A lot of people were hurt when NORMALLY such posts are catalysts to learning and healing on this board.

I NEED YOU to help me through this SADFWW, but I can let you have a short vacation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

I do NEED you - your example is a hopeful light at the end of the tunnel that if I keep up thelove, respect for my FWW: if I keep seeking empathic knowledge from generous FWWs liek you, if I continue to pray and love HARD enough my own dear FWW will one day be like you - just a LW ( Loving Wife!) with and X or FW long discarded.

I pray your H could see you in the same way as YOU have helped me se my FWW - as a lovely , loveable person who is MORE in need of his love and support now what she ever was before. Truly with a repentant FWS a BS gets out eventually MUCH more than we put in.

Oh dear Sad..I really need you...WE BS need you. Forgive us, we know not what we do sometimes by hurting you....

But take a few weeks away , or maybe just read and take stock of your own life.

I think I will write a letter to your H that I will never send, just to TRY to make him see what he has yet cannot see.

PLEASE stay, we need you. Take what time you want but do not abandon us. Part of our recovery, should that day come, will have a SadFWW label on it.
((((sadFWW)))) ALL blessings.

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Sadfww,

I took a leave of absence of at least 6 months from MB. It wasn't because someone said something so disagreeable that I had to leave the forums, but because I had a new job and I felt that it was time for a break. I may leave again [Hey, stop that clapping! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ] but I don't see myself not coming back in the future and posting my rants to poor unsuspecting souls <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . So take a break if you must, but realize that you ARE a very valuable person with a lot of wisdom, compassion and insights that have benefited WS and BS alike. I feel very fortunate to have met [even if its only in cyberspace] a kind and compassionate soul like you.

what a mess!!!!!

sadfww, i have read so many of these posts that have been going on and just didn't know which ones to try to respond to. since you specifically mentioned me, here i am.

selfishly i will say: THIS IS A TERRIBLE TIME FOR THIS BOARD TO BE BREAKING DOWN!!!! i've just confessed the rest of my stuff to my H, stuff that is multitudes worse than what i told him the first time and the board is choosing now to break down??? can't i just selfishly say: GIVE ME A BREAK, CUT IT OUT!!!!

ok, now i will stop thinking of just myself...

someone in one of the posts said something like, if a person really wants to work on their marriage would anything stop them? my answer is a very loud NO!!! this board has done me way too much good, i'm not going anywhere, not unless my H asks me to leave (which he might but that is another story). yes some of the posts here are not helpful to me and what happened to dreamcatcher in particular really upset me. she didn't need that. but i do believe in the end she said she would be back because she needed this place.

as for me, even with all that has occured during the last few days, I NEED THIS PLACE. if i have to leave(to help aliviate H's worries, NOT because of anything anyone in particular posted), i WILL take ALL of you with me in my heart and will forever remember all i have learned here. and i WILL find a new way to keep me on the right path because i like this path. i am a better person and my marriage now has a chance to really be a authentic and good marriage. we have a long way to go, i know this, but i also know i have the strength to hold on thru out the rollercoaster ride. while i am here, i will take what i need and leave the rest. and hopefully, in the proccess, i will also manage to give soemthing that another will find helpful to them.

so that is where i stand. i'm sorry for all those that have been hurt by various posts here the last few days. each person must decide for themselves what is best for them and their marriages.

my best advice to all is know your goal and then do what you must to reach that goal. i refuse to let any post push me off course, for too long anyway. for me, this place has been key to my success towards moving towards my goal, a BETTER MARRIAGE.

Sadfww and FL,

As you can tell, I have done my best to stay out of the tussle over on *THE* thread and all of that insanity. I want you two both to know something: I am a BS of a man who was a serial cheater with multiple A's. I really have been into the depths of hell. I also was asked out by a man every day for about six months, finally said "yes" to him, and began to walk down the road of an EA a few steps too--so I gained empathy for WS and how it happens. I can sincerely say that I just do not judge!!

I remember that when I first found out about my (now ex)H's A, I lost everything. I did cry for 3 days straight--24hrs. for 3 days. My eyes swelled shut, and my eyes and nose were rubbed raw from tears. I've been sexually abused by my own father--and physically abused by my own mother--and none of that even came close to the pain of losing my H. Even worse, he moved out-of-state to live with his OW but continued to tell me that I was crazy...that I was imagining it...that it was all in my head and I was nuts!!

Now...imagine this happening OVER and OVER!!! Altogether, my exH had 13 A's that I can confirm and probably/possibly more that I can't confirm. Each time I discovered a new A, another bomb was dropped (each time a smaller bomb, but a bomb nonetheless). So dear Sadfww and FL, I do have some empathy for WS's and I love ya--but I really have been through it!!!!!

People were saying things on *THE* thread like: "You don't deserve to be hit with a bottle" or "You don't deserve physical violence" -and- (paraphrasing here) "WS deserve to be tied in public and have their flesh ripped from their bones"...but using what is DESERVED is a very scary measuring standand.

In the larger spiritual realm, if we were all to get what we "deserve", well we are all sinners--have all made mistakes--and "deserve" to have no relationship with God!! In the smaller marriage realm, if we were to all get what we "deserve" there would not be violence, but the neglectful S would be ignored and unimportant, and the abusive S would be mentally and emotionally brought low. My point here is that we do not use what is "deserved" as a very good standard, because we would all be in a world of hurt, huh??

When a BS first finds out about the betrayal, or first gets definitive proof of an A that's been denied, some do kind of snap and act out in a non-characteristic violent way. I myself wound up as hard as I could and slapped my exH across the face. I mean, I LANDED ONE, and that is not my character at all!! My exH also called the police on me (which was quite a shock since he had been physically abusive to me and I never called the cops). But my point here is that it does happen. As the "wiser" ones here on MB, we would be wise to warn those WS's about to confess that "hey, sometimes this happens...you might want to be prepared that it might happen."

However, I digress. I would NEVER want my exH harmed in any way. He made his choices...he has to live with the consequences of his choices...and a year after our divorce, we are reasonably civil and a bit friendly. But if I were to try to think of an appropriate way to give him what he "deserves"...well how could I do that?? There is no way to adequately put him through the kind of entire personality devastation that I went through without killing him or causing him critical physical harm. I'm not being punitive, I'm just saying that I can not imagine what kind of event would be devastating enough to make him cry for 3 days straight and entirely lose his identity and his own self-esteem without it being like the Spanish Inquisition. He can not get what he "deserves" because that is not a mature standard by which to measure.

In real life, WS's hurt too. In real life, the BS loses it all and it really is akin to having a nuclear bomb just destroy everything that IS who they are. "Deserved" is too tit for tat/eye for an eye for any personal or marital recovery to take place.

So I suggest that instead of saying what a person deserved or didn't deserve, that we move forward on what is going to be of benefit and of harm to none. If a BS is betrayed, they "deserve" to be recompensed, but I suggest that we find out what the BS needs to move forward--both personally and IN THEIR MARRIAGE--and encourage THAT!! If a WS is abandoned and neglected, they "deserve" to be valued and loved, but I suggest that we find out what the WS need to move forward--both personally and WITHIN THEIR MARRIAGE--and encourage that!!!

Sadfww, I personally hope you don't leave MB permanently. I find your posts to be helpful and meaningful. HOWEVER, I would certainly understand if the violent explosion of emotions and flaming and 2x4-ing is not something you can tolerate right now. If you can better heal by being away, then off with you, we love you, and wish you nothing but love and light. But if you can heal AND help others by staying, I would selfishly ask you to stay and become one of the "wise ones" here on MB.

With deepest respect,


CJ

I am truly touched, grateful and well...sappily feeling so good after reading these replies. Thank you all. I will reply individually to you- but later as I MUST get SOME work done! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As I posted above, I think I will stick around- just might pull out of the fray for a bit.