I talked with WH last night re: his suicide note.

I was very kind. Told him this was very serious. He said that I wasn't supposed to see the note.

I asked him if he had a plan. He said no. He said the thought goes thru his mind every now and then.

I asked him if he realized what his doing this (suicide) would do to his children, and everyone. He just wouldn't answer me.

I told him he really needed to talk to someone about this.

He pretty much blew me off.

As of this morning, he still has erased calls on his phone. So, all I can figure is that he is still in contact with OW.

I'm stuck for what to do. I have an appointment with SH on Nov. 10th. A whole week away.

I can only figure two things....WH is using this to manipulate me, stay in contact with OW, and I won't do anything because of his suicide threats, or...

If I push him, he may actually do something serious.

I have thought about removing myself from the situation - leave, then file for a legal separation.

If he makes suicide threats again, I will call 911.

Have also thought about exposure at work. Would this add to his depression and shame, causing him to actually do something serious? Or would it finally put an end to the A.

Also thought about telling OW that WH is very depressed, talking suicide, and that if she really cares for him, she will put an end to this. since he obviously does not want to live with her. Or so he says.

I do not like this.

K

k72172,

As a person who works on the Rape Crisis Hotline in my city, we are trained on suicide calls, and here's my thought.

Any time that a person talks about or threatens suicide it is serious, because usually a person THINKS about it for a while before they say anything out loud. The big, threatening things to look for are:

Does he have a plan how to kill himself?
Has he executed plans to dispose of his things or "settle his business"?
Does he have the things necessary to accomplish his plan?
Are the things he needs to kill himself right there with him?

See, k72172, when a person is going through an A and the ending of their marriage, whether they are WS or BS, it oftens crosses their mind to end the pain by ending their life. It's a thought and it may dwell for a little while, but it's a thought that comes and then shortly goes. On the occasion, a WS or BS may even speak out loud that they have thought about suicide. For example, I did--I thought about it, but then I thought of my children and knew I had to find a way to survive this pain.

What doesn't often happen, is that there is a thought of suicide...then some people are told about it (like XW or OW or a friend or an older kid)...then they decide how they're going to do it (pills, exhaust, car wreck, gun)...then they actually "settle their affairs" and give this thing to this child and that thing to that relative...then they actually BUY the pills, set up the exhaust, or buy the gun! See how this goes, k72172??

Soooo...even if you do not have that creepy feeling that he's serious, I suggest that you take it seriously anyway. If he does continue to say it (for example, if he says it again), call 911 period. Have them do a wellness check and let professionals handle it. If he was just looking for sympathy, he will quickly stop manipulating--but if he WAS serious, then you may have intervened when he didn't want you to intervene.

I'll be praying for ya!!


CJ

Thanks CJ.....

WH says he doesn't have a plan. He just says the thought goes thru his mind every once in a while (like when I confront him with information I have found - like his erasing phone calls on his cell).

He is not disposing of his personal things. Indeed, he is acquiring MORE things. He talks about going hunting; building onto our garage; losing weight; getting in shape; just bought a new wireless headset microphone for use in his band (cost quite a lot of money); talks about where his band is playing next and future plans for the band.

He DOES have guns (he is a reserve deputy sheriff), and he carries a gun in his car at all times.

So, he just called me, talking about cutting up the deer he got this past weekend.

I don't know how to get myself out of this situation. I was in control of my life, now I feel that I have lost that control, and thru his manipulation, the A will continue - even if only by phone.

K

As already written to you, suicide talk needs to be taken seriously. Affairs are addictions much like hard drugs (Dr. Harley says so). With addicts it is difficult to separate emotional manipulations from intent. I come from a family of alcoholics and suicide talk was pretty common when mom or one of my brothers was hitting bottom (they all bounced along the bottom for many years). Sometimes it was for manipulation and pity purposes; sometimes they kind of meant it and in a few rare times they acted out. But it is so hard to tell the difference. I learned to take every incident seriously.

So, when my wife talked about killing herself I took it seriously indeed. She talked about wanting to kill herself several times during the months after NC started. As with your H these death references seemed to occur mainly when we were dealing with ending contact, getting over withdrawal or when I asked hard A questions as part of early recovery. As I mention above, it was difficult to differentiate manipulation and mere attempts to sideline serious A or M discussions from true depression and intent. I am not an expert. So I talked to my MC about what to do and what to watch for.

My awareness of this saved her life I think. The night she drank part of a bottle of whisky (she never drinks) and downed half-dozen sleeping pills, I was keeping an eye on her. She unexpectedly went downstairs in the middle of the night. I got up after a few minutes to see if she was OK. I arrived before she could take too many pills. I sat with her for hours as she cried. Then I talked to my IC the next day asking what to do. I think she conferred with W’s IC who also started to help her. She hasn't acted out any attempt since. But I had to abandon serious A discussions. Her life is worth much more than my understanding the message of her A. I just have to live with the unknown a while longer, I guess.

Back to you - call for help with this. Talk to an expert in suicide fantasies. You can't live this way. It isn't fair to you. Get to a place where you feel safe no matter what he does or doesn't do.

Al-Anon is helping me learn how to lovingly detach from all this acting out (FOO and now). I wish I had joined 30 years ago. You should try it. Not for him, for you.

T

Hi K,

I read this this morning and I thought it was written terrifically. How about letting your husband read this. I hope I am not "off track". I think your husband really believes that the feelings he had during his affair were going to last forever.
He seems to feel that he has "lost his world" but if he reads this, it might begin to make sence to him.
He's grieving a "fantasy" and just doesn't seem to be aware of that.


As much as we like to believe Romantic Love is magic, it isn’t. Romantic Love is a biological state that occurs when the brain is overwhelmed by a neurotransmitter called Phenylethylamine or PEA. This drug creates the wonderful feeling we associate with love. Similar to adrenalin, PEA also tends to numb our thinking, making us behave irrationally and fail to see other people’s faults.
Another similarity between PEA and adrenalin is the way its release is triggered. I refer to adrenalin because it is better understood and the current belief is that they work the same way. When we are threatened the nero activity in our brain increases. This increase triggers the conversion of serotonin to adrenalin. PEA is also created from serotonin and hence, it is believed that it is also triggered by an increase in activity. Only instead of threat, the activity that triggers PEA is thinking about someone we are attracted to. Research shows that when we find someone attractive, each time we are with them or think about them PEA concentrations increase. Because the PEA prevents us from seeing their faults, they seem even more attractive and more PEA is released. This spirals upward and we fall head over heals in love.
Also similar to adrenalin, PEA doesn’t last forever. If you are threatened your body will immediately release adrenalin. But if the threat continues over a long period of time, it eventually stops. The higher level of brain activity becomes normalized. PEA is similar, only slower. It takes more time to build up PEA than adrenalin, and more time for the effects to wear off.
Research shows that it takes about 4-5 years for a high level of PEA to become normalized. At this point a couple will no longer feel “in love” with each other and the marriage reaches a turning point. Either the couple finds a new connection, or they drift apart. This makes both partners vulnerable to affairs. Each time we meet someone attractive we will get stimulation in a new area of the brain and PEA will be released. If we allow ourselves to explore this relationship further we risk starting a new cycle and falling in love with the OP. This leads many couples to divorce. Of course, if the partner didn’t learn from their first experience, when the PEA becomes normalized again they will likely be in the same boat and divorced again. Some people go through this cycle many times - sort of an addiction to PEA.
In a healthy relationship something different happens. As the PEA levels off, another neurotransmitter called oxytocin takes over. Oxytocin is the same drug released by the hypothalamus gland during child birth that cements the strong bond between mother and child. Nicknamed the `cuddling hormone`, it is also released in small quantities when you just spend positive time with your partner. A surge of it is released into our bloodstream when we climax. Hence, once we are in a healthy relationship with regular sex we begin to accumulate oxytocin and build a “bond” with our partner similar to the bond we have with our children. We could call this “Real Love” as opposed to “Romantic Love”. It is this bond that will carry the couple through to the end of their lives.
What oxytocin does on a feeling level is to make us feel at peace. When we bond with someone, being with them makes us feel serine and relaxed. This is a positive feeling that we can only get from our spouse, children or others we have a long-term relationship with. Many people go through life never knowing this feeling and that saddens me. It is very powerful, and very pleasant.
I hope I haven’t disappointed you with the suggestion that Romantic Love comes from PEA which doesn’t last forever. I believe that there are ways we can still trigger production of PEA in our spouses and hence, romantic feelings, even after many, many years. This is done by using the relationship to stimulate new areas of the brain, thereby creating increased activity where there wasn’t any before. This is what women refer to as “being romantic.” It involves doing things out of the ordinary to stimulate new activity and create a new PEA rush. I also believe that this is what some of the MB principles do. However, there is no scientific evidence to support any of my own conjectures.
I hope this helps. It might be a bit to scientific for many people. Also, some people don’t want to let go of the notion that love and romantic feelings are magic. Hence, I may not be helping you. But I do hope you get the message that there is a transition happening in your marriage that is contributing to your feelings and that the feelings you have for the OM are not any more likely to lead you to happiness in the long term than staying with your H will. These are reality. This is where you need to apply your strength to your marriage, create a bond, find ways to be romantic and make it work.

This might not help him but maybe it will "put a little" sence into what he is "feeling". He probably can't "understand" why his emotions are "twirling" so much and why the "addictive" feelings aren't just going away.
From what you have written, it does seem as if he still is in contact with OW................. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I don't mean to "pull you down" but he is really having a fight within himself. It's as if he "doesn't want to "let go" of the "good feelings" he gets out of talking of whatever else he has from OW. But as long as he is still in contact, he's not giving your marriage a chance.

When you read what happens with the "body chemicals" it surely does make sence and I think that it really makes it "understandible" that it's only a "chemical reaction" and "not true love" well at least not the same kind of love that is developed during a "long-termed" relationship.

Many people just don't understand that it is "normal" for a relationship to become "relaxed" and peacefull. It is up to "both" in a marriage to bring in the "high lights" and to "create" excitement. This just doesn't last forever.
It involves hard work and not just "switching" partners. Unless one wishes to get into this kind of cycle, which I believe leaves the one involved very "lonely" at the end.


Please "hold on" until you have your appointment with SH.

hugs
bb

Hi bb.....

Where have you been? I've missed you being here.

This all does make sense to me. But WH will NOT read anything. Doesn't want to do anything.

I had a talk with him this morning before he left for work. He got angry with me last night - we had words about the sale of some of our stuff, and the use of the money it would bring.

The fact is, he is still in contact with OW daily. He says it's work related only. I told him that if he felt he had to hide it from me, then it is wrong.

I told him that he first needed to start being honest with himself. That alone would make him feel better. Then, when he felt he could be totally honest with me, we could work on our M and our life together.

I view ANY contact cheating. I have no security in our M right now.

I asked him if I had never found out about the A, would he feel as bad as he does now? Would he ever have been honest with me about it? He said he had been feeling bad about the A for a while before I found out.

I keep telling him he needs to talk to a councelor. He keeps refusing. He keeps contradicting himself in everything he says.

I'm done snooping. If he wants to be honest with me, he's going to have to do it on his own.

I'm getting to the point where I just don't care anymore. Things were much easier in Plan B. I was starting to look forward to a future without all of this drama, deceit, and lies.

I guess this sounds pretty depressed. But, I feel like I can step out of this muck, and be happy - with or without WH.

I feel I am no longer responsible for his happiness - he needs to be responsible for himself.

K

And I wanted to thank you Thos....for the information. I will keep it in mind.

K

K..

I think you took him back too soon. He is in breach of contract with you. What do you think an appropriate response to this is?

--Noodle

Oh, Noodle, you are RIGHT!

He did come back too soon. He more or less forced his way back home. He said we couldn't work on our M if he wasn't here.

I should have stood up for myself. Hindsight is 20/20. Too bad I can't read without my bifocals.

Everything he promised has not come to pass. Now, he is trying to manipulate me again.

Breach of contract? Yes. However, I think now that I should have spelled out everything letter by letter. I must have been to general about things.

Is this going to go on much longer? NO!

I cannot allow him to continue to disrespect me in any and every way.

K

You were not too general.

He knew what not to disclose.

He understood perfectly well.

He just lied to you in order to get what he wanted.

You let him breach the contract because he convinced you [and this was easy..you wanted to be convinced] that once he was back you could work on things. He never intended to do any of this. Not one of your requirements has been put into action..not one.

So now what?

--Noodle

Noodle,

Now what?

I think that if things don't turn around in the next week, WH out, Plan B in.

For the last time.

I don't deserve this. I have felt powerless to do anything in the past few weeks, what with the suicide threats and all.

I have raised the bar. WH must get counceling. No contact whatsoever, of any kind, ever. We must have MC.

Now what?

K

Also, if WH cannot find a way to be at work without contact with OW, he MUST find another job, or transfer out.

Radical honesty.

100% commitment to our M.

Can you tell me if there is more I should be looking for?

Oh K..so kind. You are killing him with kindness..always just one more day..one more chance. You say..just give me a reason to drop this..but you have that reason already..what you mean is..please give me reason to continue.

Plan B next week? What is magical about next week? Why not today? He can come *home* to his bags waiting on the porch for him..a plan B letter attached. Is that so unrealistic? He will continue on this way exactly as long as you allow him to..every day that he continues to get away with this is harmfull to him .

You know everything you need to know. What are you waiting for?

--Noodle

I DON'T KNOW.

I guess I just want to keep up my hope.

{{{K}}}

I don't often extend cyber hugs..I really don't..can't remeber the last time..but, I really feel for you.

--Noodle

Noodle.....

I want my M. I want it to work. I am afraid.

I don't want to speak my fears. Why am I so afraid? Of being alone? Of not making it on my own?

I am afraid to look at the future. On one hand, I can be strong. On the other, I am very weak.

K

Blondblossom, thanks for sharing that. Where did that info come from? It actually makes me sad. The realization that my H threw away real love for that!

K, I think your criteria for your H staying are right on. If you have told him all this, I agree with Noodly. Why wait? If you haven't spelled it out, do so. If he hems and haws, go for Plan B.

CV55

I found this in "7 year itch" or something like that. It was a thread I was reading this morning.

I think it's even sadder for the affairees, when they "Wake up" and when they are able to think clearly again. Gosh, what a mess that must be............

Waking up and realizing the disaster that has been created and due to the fact that most affairs don't last, this really must be a "Wake up" for the affairees.

I believe that many that gave up their marriages for an affair truely "regret" it terribly. I think that many (even if they don't admit it) long for the "marriage" they once had. They see the qualities that their spouse had but sadely, many times it is just too late.

take care
bb

CV55

I found this in "7 year itch" or something like that. It was a thread I was reading this morning.

I think it's even sadder for the affairees, when they "Wake up" and when they are able to think clearly again. Gosh, what a mess that must be............

Waking up and realizing the disaster that has been created and due to the fact that most affairs don't last, this really must be a "Wake up" for the affairees.

I believe that many that gave up their marriages for an affair truely "regret" it terribly. I think that many (even if they don't admit it) long for the "marriage" they once had. They see the qualities that their spouse had but sadely, many times it is just too late.

take care
bb