All -

I have to make this quick as my H is on his way home right now.

We are working on recovery and are in what I think is recovery right now. My H has never really talked to me about the A. EVER! So on the 1st annv of the A I asked him. Thinking we were in a place where it was safe for me to ask. You know, moving on and putting it behind us.

So I asked why stating that I needed to know so that I could work on that...or WE could work on that and stop this from happening again.

Some of you know my story and know the history. If you need history I'll provide that if it will help get responses.

Here's somethign that has killed me over this last year. Since he won't tell me why. I've drawn my own conclusion....he wasn't attracted to me.

***removing embarassing details...shouldn't have posted this part. I was in a panic and wanted to make sure the severity of my state came across.***


I need to know is anyone out there that can tell me the WS didn't know why? Is it possible that he just has no idea?

Right now he says it was a terrible mistake and he's very sorry. It will never happen again.

Can I ever move on if I do not know Why?

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: heroswife ]</small>

Hwife...never posted to you before, and honestly, don't know your sit, but here goes, in a general answer-type of way!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I need to know is anyone out there that can tell me the WS didn't know why? Is it possible that he just has no idea?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We ALL agree that there is NO justification for an A. NONE, NADA, NICHTS. NONE WHATSOEVER! However, there may be "reasons."

IMHO, no, there has to be a reason of "why." It may be something as simple as he wasn't attracted to you. But I hope not: that would make him quite a shallow person, huh?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can I ever move on if I do not know Why?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This, from your perspective, I can not answer. But, I can tell you I don't see how your M can move forward if he doesn't answer "why". And if he doesn't answer why, he is not being honest--with the very least--himself. Maybe there is something there that you can't help him with. But, it seems counterproductive to me if you don't know why so at least he can seek help--whether it's with you or through IC. (It also seems quite unfair--again, I don't have the BS perspective though--that he doesn't give you this radical honesty.) He needs to start with himself, though.

I read another post just recently (and I'm sorry I can give the proper credit) where the post stated:
"One has to forgive themself first, before asking forgiveness of another."

Something to think about.

Best wishes, and hoped this helped a little, in my abbreviated response!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can I ever move on if I do not know Why? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my opinion, NO. An A doesn't happen by accident. Most the time a lot of planning goes into it. If you and WH can't figure out why it happened then as the saying goes, "Those who don't learn from their mistakes of the past, are bound to repeat them." Not talking about it for a year does not sound like a very healthy recovery to me. Did you guys ever go to counseling? If not, then I would suggest you do it NOW. This is obviously still bothering you and it will effect your M.

Liny -

I expected that response. Why am I in such denial about this. I'm so frustrated.

How do I help him understand WHY?

What do I do? He says that if he knew why he'd tell me but he says he doesn't know.

He picked my family up and moved us to FOW's neighborhood. Accepted a position reporting to her. He moved us to a new state. Took my kids away from family and friends and their schools. Took me away from my job. His military so if this got out he could lose his job...kicked out of the military.

He says it was all for a mistake. I can't accept that but he won't give me anything else. When I finally decided to ask him about it...and I try to avoid because of his anger. He raged. He went nuts.

I'm so confused. We've made it this far. Now do I call it quits because he won't at least tell me why?

Thank you Kloe.

I honestly expected that response from everyone.

I just feel like I'm crazy for wanting to know. My H makes me feel terrible because I want to know. It totally invalidates my feelings.

We did go to MC for a little while in the beginning. My H was still in the fog at that point. The MC was terrible and told me that if I couldn't get over this then I needed to leave my H. Mind you this was 2 days after D-Day.

Needless to say that didn't help one bit.

I don't get it either. The WS can't tell us why? I mean, I know about the A. I'm still here. I know details. I'm still here. I've put in __ months/years. I'm still here. What could you possibly tell me that is going to be so horrible as to make me leave you now?

I just don't get it.

Dave Carder in his book Torn Asunder states that in order to heal, the WS must determine the "why" of the affair... Once the WS knows why they had the A, they can start working on ways to prevent it from happening again.

I highly recommend Torn Asunder if you haven't read it yet...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Been on here for awhile and have heard many different reasons from FWS's and what was told to their BS's.

In MANY situations, the OP was not nearly as good-looking as the S. So why go for her/him? What a blow to our ego, are we chopped liver?

It's the FANTASY they are in love with. The idea of the perfect person that fulfills all their needs, without the kids clinging, and the history of past resntment. Sometimes for men its the ego stroking of the KISA (Knight In Shining Armor) finding a damsel in distress. For a woman it's like finding a charming romantic that you don't have to clean his shorts.

Hero, no amount of makeup or work will make you perfect, and you can never compete with a fantasy. But there is great beauty in our FLAWS!! We are drawn to the uniqueness of a person, the sideways wrinkle in the corner of an eye, the pear shape of a butt, the sexy scar on the hand, the voluptuousness of a woman's figure, the squeezable frame, the handholds EVERYWHERE!!

You are beautiful Heroswife, and I've never seen you. You are beautiful by your written voice, your experiences, and your dedication and loyalty to your family and FWH.

Weight be damned! Life is too short to spend it doing anything harmful to yourself. We'll all look like puckered dried up grapes soon enough, enjoy your body while you can without contorting it and making it weaker, faster!!!

Love!! yourself!!!

HW,
First, whatever you do ....TRY to remain as calm and in control as possible.
The less emotional you get, the better able you will be to KEEP the discussion "on topic" and stick to the issues at hand. Don't let him cloud the waters and turn this yet once again to be all about YOU. Today is about him.

Next, Yes, it is possible that he doesn't KNOW "why" at this time.
Or he knows "some" of it...but can't (won't) verbalize it to you.

Truly, You guys have been in a quasi state of recovery for over a year now.

With that said, IF he wants to get healthy and save you, himself and the M....then he needs to be working WITH you on finding out these answers.

Unfortunately, this takes both some long and intense discussions as well as a Willingness to take a hard look at ourselves and do some much needed introspection and self evaluation.

Up until this point....your H has been unwilling to do any of this.
Heck, he won't even admit any more to you then what you have "proven".
Sadly he's had more than a year to get his Sh*t together.....and he's just mostly wasted all this time (as well as your patience).

Can you make him try?
Can you make him open up?
No...to both.

But you've "protected" him from the consequences of his actions for far too long.
This is not a criticism on you. NOT at all.
You've simply done what you thought was best.....used your inner strength to hold this M together.

But you've been waiting for him to come around OR "get it" on his own.
And sadly he's just used your protection to basically "skate" on this issue.

Well, we already knew it was driving you crazy and making any true recovery impossible.
Now we find out its also making you SICK (literally...both emotionally and physically).

So although I am always hesitant to use "ultimatums" or threats very often.....it seems that either he has to "get it" NOW and start helping you to heal (by being really "there" for you and being willing to answer the hard questions and both of you begin to REALLY get to the "core" issues in your relationship)....or you may need to have some type of separation.

I'm really not in favor of these usually....but as you can't force him to DO anything....what do you have left. Sometimes just getting that cold dose of "reality" (like really losing his family) can be what some of these Procrastinators NEED to actually get their head back into the M. (and out of their azz)

Fact is that I look at your making yourself sick (and him NOT willing to do anything to help you) in very much the same as an attack on your person. He is harming you emotionally (which is manifesting itself physically) just as if he was hurting you himself.
This is a direct result of his INACTIONS! Even though you asked and tried, over and over.
So this is on his door step....NOT yours.

His selfishness and indifference can't be allowed to continue, as its not working for either of you. If you need to leave to show him your serious, then that is what you may have to do.

I also would like you to get some IC for yourself. YOU NEED THIS, no matter what he decides to do.

And I've wanted you to read Torn Asunder for quite some time.

IMO its been your H's continued contact with this OW at work (even if NOT daily) that may be keeping this "barrier" between the 2 of you.
Even if he is not sleeping with her, just seeing her has to be keeping his level of guilt and shame at such a constant state of a high level.....that he hasn't ever been able to begin to work through it himself.
Therefore is he can't get any type of handle on it, then (since he's "emotionally talked" challenged anyway) he can't find a way to do the one thing you need him to do...Open himself up and talk to you about it, your own pain and his.
Being a soldier can make this even more difficult....as we are NOT supposed to ever be weak or make ourselves vulnerable.

However, with that said, even if it is Tough for him to do, he has to Start and learn to do it.
Why? Cause the cycle you guys are in now....is slowly begining to destroy you. From with in and without. I don't think I'm being over dramatic in this either.
You've done it this way for a year. IT AIN'T WORKIN!

He'll get better at talking and opening up as he DOES it. Practice in any area is the key.
But its up to him to decide to FINALLY get started!

So either he agrees to try something else OR YOUR going to have to force the issue and make YOUR own path. (I don't want you to D).

But I do want you both Happy and just as importantly HEALTHY!
You don't have the energy or time anymore to fight against both the A and him as well.
So he has to either begin to be a "real" help or he needs to get out of the way.

IT IS HIS CHOICE!

Last bit of advice....DON'T let him turn this around on you somehow and make the blame or the guilt be about YOU. THIS today is about HIM.
YOU can always talk about any issues about YOU, on another day.
STICK to the Issue at hand......Him and his willingness to either do what you need or NOT?
Then you'll have decisions to make depending on what HE CHOOSES to do or not do.

Wishing you success

Thank you all for your quick responses.

No we haven't read torn asunder. My H won't read any book despite my constant requests.

He did come home and we did have a long talk. I had planned to say "This is what I need to heal and if you can't offer me that then I will continue to be stuck in this loop. I will continue to hurt and my love for you will continue to drain."

I got that out for the most part. I was pretty calm and felt really numb. I am prepared to leave.

Here's how it progressed: I tried to talk to him. He wouldn't budge. I don't know why. I don't know why. Just kept saying that over and over and telling me to move on. So I tried a different approach.

I'm sick. I'm worried that you aren't attracted to me or you won't be attracted to me if I gain weight....guys I'm not chunky at all. I know that. I"m in very good shape....

I finally just spelled it out for him. I told him the hairy details. Maybe admitting it here made it easier for me to admit it to him. I really didn't expect that at all. It just came out.

so what happened you ask? He lost it. Flipped out. He screamed and yelled and tried to walk out the door. Told me to leave. I told him not to leave like that. He screamed and screamed and at one point I bent over with my head on my knees and he leaned down to my ear and screamed "I want to put a f'n bullet in my brain to end this. I'd rather die then go through this again. I can't stand to see you in this pain. Don't you think I'd tell you if I knew why. I don't know why. Drop it so we can put this behind us and move on!"

He was out of control. I stood there in shock.

So I didn't speak. Then finally he said he loved me and he was sorry he yelled and he didn't mean to. He hates hurting me and would never hurt me again. He said he beats himself up everyday over what he did to me. He said he worries that I will harm myself while he's at work. He said he hides things from me so I won't have access to use them to harm myself. He said, I know I've messed you up and I see that everyday. I'm sorry i did this to you. I don't know why I did this. I was out of my mind. I can't live without you. I love you and i want you to love me the way you did before this.

I told him I loved him. He was crying. I told him I had to work and he needed to get back to his job. I had to push him out of the door.

One note though.....even after I dished all the hairy details about the ED. He never addressed it. He acted like it was never said.

That's how he operates. If it makes you uncomfortable act like it's not there and it'll go away.

I have a conference call right now. Someone let me know what you think about this turn of events.

HW,

Me again. I did a search to see the beginning of your posts so I could better understand your situation. I didn't get the ones from the beginning, so I think I need more info.

My H as a hard time communicating, always has. Sounds as though maybe yours does too. Now, that said, I said in our other thread that my H had the "I don't know" statement too. I truly believe with all my heart that he didn't know at the time. Now, after talking and talking and talking I think he has searched his soul.

Bottom line, he thinks the A was out of boredom. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Opportunity came along. OW was there. I was busy with life and didn't notice the changes. Sex was first. EA came later. Lots of complicated details here that I won't go into because of his current job.

What I'm trying to say is that it has taken a lot to get him to talk. To open up. Several of their emails that I found had him stating that he felt he could "talk to her". That all his life people have been trying to get him to talk about his feelings (me, his mother, sisters, etc.) but that he had never felt comfortable until her. Yuk! He says it was fog talk (he reads and posts here occasionally.)

I will say that I thought we were in recovery from April 04-Aug. 04 and we weren't. He was not talking, not telling me everything. We hit rock bottom in Aug. where he told me the rest of the story. Now, he is in withdrawal, but he is talking to me. Finally!! It has been a hard road.

HW - my email is naivegirl38@hotmail.com

I am praying for you.

ng (no smiley face today-don't really feel like smiling)

HW,

I gotta tell you, I think y'all need to move to be able to heal. Can he move? My H was only in the reserves when we got married so I don't know how military stuff works. But if I understand correctly, you live in the same neighborhood as OW and he reports to her?

If that is true, I don't know how you do it. I am wondering how I can spend one more minute in this city and OW lives on the other side of town. I never see her unless I go up to H's work. And then I've only seen her once. Gave her a nice Go to H@#l look. The best I could muster. And I will have my peace with her before we leave town.

Now, back to you (sorry - I'm having a bad day too!). I am so sorry that your H refuses to read anything. Mine refuses counseling but he has read everything I've asked him to. And amazingly, he has opened up to me lately in ways that have made my love for him so much stronger.

Are you sure that your H is out of the fog? I hate to ask that, but his quiet (and loud)refusals to acknowledge your pleas for information worry me. Maybe he doesn't want to look deep enough inside himself to figure out the reason for the A. I truly believe that my H can't reach some of his feelings and emotions sometimes. Did your H have a rocky childhood like mine? Aside from the yelling, they sound very similar. My H heard so much yelling as a child that it pains him to hear it.

Well, I could go on and on. I don't know what to tell you to do. Except if he is still working for/with her, y'all need to get out of there - ASAP! Perhaps, away from her, he can let go of the guilt and open up to you.

I hope my rambling has helped you in some way.

ng

My H gets SOoooo angry when he feels guilty about something. He gets so defensive and really blows things WAY out of proportion.

I've had to talk with him MANY times that I am not trying to attack, I am trying to get information. Dr. Harley writes about Radical Honesty, perhaps you can print off some pages and read it to him.

Radical Honesty in a R is vital because it gives both members of a partnership access to all information so they can make decisions.

What if you had a business and your partner kept the books and would not share with you the accounting at all...you could not make responsible financial decisions. Or if you made sales and did not tell your partner, and if he called up the same company, then you are both working against each other. But with Radical Honesty, you both have access to as much information as you can muster.

Here's the dilemna, he copes with problems by using denial, you cope by understanding. He doesn't understand that his way of protecting you is actually hurting you more than the truth. You cannot deny his defense mechanism, but there has to be a balance so he is not defending himself so much...it hurts you...and you can't talk so much it hurts him...

Talk about what a balance would be...

One question a week, he answers completely to your satisfaction...no more questions in between?

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: StillHereMakingIt ]</small>

You have some real good thoughts from toprope and still. But, I was going to ask the SAME question as naivegirl asked--which could explain some things:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you sure that your H is out of the fog? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's a scary question to ask, after a year of "recovery." But to heal, you need to treat the wound. Is your H just putting band-aids on, or is he really being attentive to it?

gosh HW, don't know what to say that hasn't been said in one way or another here. something i say frequently now and have heard it said many times here is if what you are doing isn't working then it's time to do something else. i really wish you could counsel w/SH asap even if it's just yourself. God only wants the best for you and we do too and know that our thoughts and continued prayers go to you and your family.

{{{{heroswife}}}}

I am soooooo soooooo very sorry that your discussion turned out like it did again, and I am very very worried about you.

IMO, he is making this about him when he needs to be making this about you. He needs to be reassuring you and start putting your doubts and worries to rest. I think that maybe the reason he “freaked out” is because he is realizing the affect HIS actions are having on you. But he doesn’t understand the HE has the power to help you.

Ok fine, so maybe right now he doesn’t know why he did what he did, but that is not an excuse to NOT talk about his actions. Talking about what happened will eventually answer that question. Not talking about this is not going to make this go away. You and I know this all too well. I do think we have done our husbands a huge disservice by not talking about the affair, not wanting to rock the boat. But either way, you are at the point you want, need, and deserve answers and he needs to be man enough to give you those answers. Maybe you can come to the reasoning together.

I wish he would understand that you are beating yourself up everyday wondering what went wrong. And if he is worried about you harming yourself (I hope you are not at that point, like I said, I am very worried about you) then he needs to realize that he’s the one that can change that. I believe he is sorry HW, but he needs to express that in a different way other than how he wants to deal with it and that’s not dealing with it!

Maybe you can tell him that if he hates hurting you and he doesn’t want to do it again, then he needs to talk to you. Because by not telling you what you need to know he is hurting you over and over again.

My H operates the same way, sometimes I wonder if we are not married to the same man. Act like it wasn’t said or it didn’t happen and everything is fine. It will go away. But it doesn’t.

One question I do have though, what do you think made him flip out. You telling him you didn’t think he was attracted to you or you telling him about the ED? I think he is realizing the affect this is having on you and he’s having a hard time dealing with the fact that he is the cause. But that does NOT justify his reaction to you this time or any other time.

I am sorry you are having such a hard day and I wish I was there, if nothing else just be a support system for you. But you are in thoughts and I am sending you huge cyber hugs!!!!

I wish I knew something more to say!

Love,
LJB

Bear

I tried to use that approach. It didn't work. I tried to say....nothing can hurt me as bad as the A. Keeping this from me is prolonging my pain and my ability to heal.

I'm so confused.

Rebuilding in Faith

You've posted to me before. I do appreciate your words. I know you are military as well. I will take heed to your request to read the book Torn Assunder. Top-Rope has told me for a while to get it. Any suggestions on getting my H to read it? I'm up for any suggestions. I'm fresh out.

Still Here MakingIt
I appreciate your words of encouragement. I do understand what you are saying. I do not feel like I'm hideous and unattractive. I do believe that my weight had a big part of this. He acted in a similar way after our first child was born. He didn't have an A but he refused to has SF with me. That was 9 years ago. I'm terrified that if I gain weight he'll find another excuse to do this again. He says he won't but right now I'm small and I work out constantly so I'm very fit. But what happens when I can't do this anymore? I've asked....his response is...you don't have anything to worry about.

Top-Rope
I think you can tell from my last post that I tried. I used the tactics we had discussed. I didn't back down. I stood up and tried everything I could. Same result. Same exact result. Me crying, him screaming, him saying he's sorry, him leaving and me left in a cloud of confusion with no hope of a resolution.

NG
Thank you for your post. I'll clear up the confusion. My H brought me here so he could be with FOW. He was reporting to her up until the beginning of this month. I had told him taht I could survive this if he continued to work for her. He needed to leave. So he put in his packet for Delta Force. This would put him back on the front line and sent to the war almost immediately. The selection process lasts about 30 days. 10 days into selection he left. He was asked to leave. He was doing very well. But he said...I'm doing this for the wrong reasons. I want to be at home with my family. I've missed my oldest child grow up and I don't want to miss the baby as well.

So he came home. Before he left we rededicated our lives to Christ. My H's decision to leave Delta Force meant he would come back to this post but not to the same job. Now he has started a new job with a new unit and has nothing to do with her at all.

We are still on the same post and we still live 2.1 miles from her house. I see her all the time.

I do know that my H's decision was for our family and not for him. He gave up what could have been a hugely successful military career to take some desk job where he'll ride out his last 3 years. Then we'll get out of the military where he'll accept a position with our church 2 hours away from here.

Does that clear up the holes? If it doesn't I will gladly post other details.

Thank you again and I will email you soon.

HW,

StillMakingIt Here made me think of something. My H was big on trying to "protect me" by not telling me stuff, details, anything really. But now, I hope (pray) that he realizes through much pain and anguish that I needed him to open up and be honest to recover. My only "total freak outs" in the last few months have been over finding things out that I didn't know before when I was sitting here thinking I knew everything. OOOOHHHH!Makes me worry everyday that I'll find out something else and freak out again.

He was not protecting me by not sharing. Me finding the email accounts (and he actually told me about one of them after I found the main one.) When he finally realized that I could face the ugly truth and not yell and fuss and freak out, I think he started to feel safe with sharing his feelings. Now, don't get me wrong, I still have to pull some stuff out of him, but he is getting better.

Gotta go out for awhile. Going to get haircuts for the boys. Will check back in later.

ng

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From HW:
Me crying, him screaming, him saying he's sorry, him leaving and me left in a cloud of confusion with no hope of a resolution.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's where your wrong... there is ALWAYS hope. (But I understand your words are out of frustration and utter dismay). Understandable...and I can't blame you for feeling that way right Now.

I'm more concerned about YOUR health and welfare right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From HW:
I think you can tell from my last post that I tried. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I Know YOU ARE and Have tried. THAT is all ONE can ask of you.

I'll leave it at that for now....as Not to give you any reactionary advice.

NOW Since your H is an expert at "ignoring" and Pretending I'm sure that this is what will go on tonight.

I am sorry that he is continuing to be so obstinate and that as a result your Options are getting pretty low right now.

However, take heart that there IS a Solution to EVERY Problem.
We will find it (unfortunately the solution is NOT Always what we want it to be).

Kind of like my W's A being my wake up call. YES, it worked....but the solution was almost worse than the problem.
Since your H is soooo uncooperative....this MIGHT end up being a similar case.

Your in my thoughts.
Truly hate that your Still in such a bad place after all this time.
NOT Fair indeed!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
<strong>You are beautiful Heroswife, and I've never seen you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I have seen her and she is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

We can guess here the root cause "why" of the affair and the best guess is pure selfishness. As to the contributing causes - ENs not met, mid life crisis, etc., these can only come from the the former WS.

I suggest that counseling be sought. He may not know how to express the why. A good counselor should be able to flush this stuff out so that your marriage recovery can progress. Until you both confront this valid need of yours - the "why" - you'll not fully recover and another affair cannot be prevented.

WAT