I see that my other thread has somehow morphed into a huge, long thing and I'm almost afraid to look, lol. I think I finally have somewhat of a handle on things. We all are or should be familiar with ALL of the MB concepts. It is my observation that the original controversial post violated The Rule of Protection in the sense of not being careful of the effect on others in the choice of wording. Truth MUST and SHOULD be spoken but there are many different ways to express it. Some are healing and others are not but the best way is for truth to be spoken in love. It is the best way to assure that the truth can be *heard*.

If I were asked by a BS what goes on in the WW mind during the fog, I could CHOOSE to use my considerable creative writing skills to vividly illustrate a graphic and memorable portrait of the delights of SF with the OM and then provide an equally long passionate disclaimer demonstrating my awarness of MB concepts. I would be blasted on this board and RIGHTFULLY SO!!! If I were to be that unthinkingly (or maybe selfishly) cruel I'd have to blast myself (!) because I would be violating my own code of conduct. (Oh for the record, I have spoken openly on the above topic with my H at great length so please don't think I am advocating violating Radical Honesty.)

The sad part is that despite any lengthy disclaimer on my part, the DAMAGE would be done and I ask you....why on earth would I CHOOSE to do this? Why would I give in to my baser emotions and hurt others like that? I could defend myself by saying I was being honest, truthful about the way things were but in reality I would have been rude and inconsiderate of how any BSs reading might perceive what I wrote simply because of the WAY I wrote it..

I would have been the cause of pain and unhappiness because I chose to express myself without regard to the feelings of others. I would have violated the Rule of Protection in regard to other board members. I would have been violating the *spirit* of the rule not the letter of it of course, as we MBers obviously are not married to each other. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And bottom line it's also a matter of common courtesy...just because this board is anonymous doesn't mean we have the right to be mean.

In my view, it's just not good enough to be hurtful and then say "Well but it's True!", and rubbing someone's nose in "Truth" definitly doesn't build good relationships whether they be marital or between board members. I can't remember where I got this but I taught our kids early on to examine what came out of their mouths (when they were angry especially) by these three questions:

1. Is it true?
2. Is it necessary?
3. Is it kind?

It was kind of hard to keep them strictly to this actually but I found it to be a good rule of thumb. Truth spoken in love is healing and helpful, the other way only sows discord. I wish that we could all find healing somehow in spite of this, I really hate to see so many excellent people (even temporarily) leave on a bad note. Peace, KB

Good Message Knewbetter.

I posted this on the other thread of yours:

"A soft answer calms wrath, but harsh words stir up anger." Proberbs 15:1

And I need to take my OWN advice here, as I called MelodyLane a snotty person on that thread about having a place for WS's to post!

That wasn't very nice of me regardless of her snotty message!~lol~
Rachel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
P.S.I said that last sentence with a smile on my face, not with bitterness whatsoever.

I, for one, will not be leaving. I was being a "Drama Queen," and I am staying. I have learned SOOOO much from these boards.

I recognize that growth is painful. If I am uncomfortable here, I should take the time to think about why that is. If I simply run away, all my ideas go with me. Why would I profess we all be nice to each other and then leave???

That doesn't make sense to me. I will stay, and strive to follow my own vision of love and healing.

Spider Slayer

Whistles and applause knewbetter!!!!

I think I will be sticking around too...just going to be reading/posting a little less for a bit.

Make, you hang in there girl. Nice job on refering to Harley's work on the other thread, you are doing your homework! Did you post under a different name a while back? For some reason you seem very familiar to me.

Spidey, AWESOME posts on the other thread!!!! You said it all before I did. You rock! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And dear Sadfww, I am SO glad to hear that you are going to be *around*! I'm sorry things have been so difficult for you personally lately and I know it doesn't help to be simultaneouly embroiled in strife. There are in actuality, so many good hearted people on the board, REALLY!

I have enjoyed your input very much and in my opinion lurking can be a very good thing. I don't post much myself and lurked for well over a year before posting, guess I'm more into reading than writing. Thanks for the heads up Sadfww, it makes me feel somewhat lighter today! {{{hugs}}}} KB

Knewbetter is correct!

I want to be able to talk to FWWs who tell it like it is. That is the only way I can feel better about the whole thing.

Regarding SF:

Initially my wife said it was mediocre and that OM had poor equipment. In short she said what all BHs want to hear.


Then I said, honey if it was bad why you kept going for more.

She then said SF was good, but not all of the time.

However, I was not convinced.

She then admitted SF was great all of the time.

It really hurt to know SF was great, but guess what? Now I don’t have to dwell on that anymore. One must also understand that sex with a new fresh body is going to have a mystique that is hard to reproduce in a 30 year old marriage.

What is really amazing to me is that my FWW decided to keep having sex with the same H of 30 years rather than with OM who is brand new. That tells me something!

I rather read what FWWs post all day long. They have the info I need to understand my wife.

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Actually KB..

I would LOVE for you to write just such a post!

Honestly.

Does the idea frighten you? There would be bloodshed no doubt..but think of the possibilities!

True is good enough for me..kind and necessary are quite subjective.

I would love to dissect a graphic anatomy of an affair from start to finish..wouldn't hurt my feelings any..but it would be pretty revealing for you. Are you comfortable with that level of exposure? If so, please consider it. It doesn't break any board policy does it? Most BS would pay good money to know what is going on in the mind and life of their beloved..yours might be a reasonable facsimile.

Noodle

Such a thoughtful thread by 'Knewbetter' that I am 'bumping' it up.

(Mel, NOT 'humping' it up!~lol~)

We gotta keep our sense of humor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I WANT and NEED to be a happy and kind person!

A forgiving person for sure; just as I have been forgiven!
Rachel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Noodle, I almost missed this. Actually the requested "post" was written as it played out start to finish, all 12 spiral bound notebooks. Once a writer always a writer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (Hey I wanted rolling eyes but they are gone!) Anyway, I dumped them already.

I don't know if you ever took notice but I tend to respond overwhelmingly to BSs. I've probably only responded to five WS tops and I'm probably guessing too high. I've asked myself why it would be so, I mean I SHOULD be able to naturally relate to FWS, I am in a recovered marriage and I could be a help ect. So why don't I???

I thought about it alot for a while back and then realized that maybe it came down to a cost/benefit equation. The benefit a FWS would receive from me walking them through recovery is not worth the cost to ME. Selfish aren't I? I am quite simply not drawn to posts about affair emotions and actions and that is something that usually must be addressed when posting to FWS or WS.

I am very much drawn to certain types of threads, threads where the poster shows a certain spirit right from the get go. I am drawn to abuse threads and threads where encouragment is needed. I LOVE the MB concepts and try to incorporate them into my posts. I love tangibles, resources and tools that can be useful to a BS trying to recover. It's where my heart is.

Your request falls into the FWS type catagory for me Noodle, even though you are a BS. I could easily write such a post for you but it would be at the real risk of hurting others on this board and not being able to ever make it right! It would be at the risk of refreshing the salicious details of a relationship that is long dead in my mind and was one of the worst mistakes I ever made.

Words can be so damaging Noodle, there is such power in them. When I posted that I was capable of writing a graphic illustration of the wonders of the affair I didn't mean for it to be taken literally, as an offer, lol. Bloodshed... no kidding and for what purpose???? The harm would FAR outweigh the good. There are waaay too many people I care about on this board to hurt with any vivid images that they could transpose on their own spouses. I care too much about myself (and my H) to go back and recreate something I've renounced. Not interested.

In my marriage I could/can share those words beause my husband was/is invested in loving me, affair and all. This is not the place for me to share what you asked, I have already done that with the one person it matters to the most, my husband. I'm not your spouse Noodle, my particular bents, preferences and motivations are most likely not his and even though we both did the same sorry thing, I'm sure there were significant differences. His story is far more important than mine to you in the end, you know? Maybe someday he'll tell you what you really want to know, I can't be a substitute, sorry. Didn't mean to be a tease. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> KB

P.S. How is baby Sean Patrick??? I've been meaning to ask for ages. Please tell me I didn't screw up his name, I loved it when you posted his birth, if I messed up I'll kick myself!!

KB..

It was just a suggestion, not a request. I understand completely if it is too trying or too much exposure for you. Of course you must tend first to your own needs.

I already have my husbands account..so it isn't really for me [especially considerring how different my situation is from most here]..but as someone who gains much perspective from reading the thoughts and *in the moment* spewings of others..I admit I am sorry to hear that such a wealth is gone for good. Oh well..I'm sure one is being published as we speak..just not so handily. It would really turn you into my personal specimen though..and I fully acknowledge that most would turn away from being objectified and cross sected. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Baby Sean Patrick [aka "Wubbles"] is fine and fat. The newest apple of his fathers eye [he gets up half an hour early just to play with the baby..and he is military..so that's D*MN early].

--Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
I would love to dissect a graphic anatomy of an affair from start to finish..wouldn't hurt my feelings any..but it would be pretty revealing for you. Are you comfortable with that level of exposure? If so, please consider it. It doesn't break any board policy does it? Most BS would pay good money to know what is going on in the mind and life of their beloved..yours might be a reasonable facsimile.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My darling husband would suffer doing what you are requesting of Knewbetter. He feels nothing but self-loathing thinking about the affair.

Great sex? Sure.

Sex so great that it was worth a lifetime stain on his soul? Certainly not.

Something he wants to revisit? No.

The memories are painful not pleasurable.

Pep

I know this is purely hypothetical..

but if something were clearly earmarked as being exactly what it is..no suprises..is the possible painfull recollection still an issue? I can understand coming into something like that cold..but reading every thread is not an imperative, right?

How far does one take that protective concern?

Tell me what you think..because this is a specific message board..not free press..and I am unsure of my own position..would appreciate input.

--Noodle

Noodle, I didn't understand what you meant...did you mean painful recollection on the reader's part or the poster? My own concern really is more for the board and for my H who reads here. He's heard it all before and it's WICKED but for those coming upon it on a thread title even with a trigger warning, I would imagine it would have the facination of a fatal car wreck. "Don't look, don't look...OMG I looked!" I dunno, some things just shouldn't ever be seen or heard. Ask any FWS, they know. KB

Yes, but if a person were first warned and then looked anyway..any offense they took was their own problem..?

***There I go using that generic "you" again***

This was hypothetical..you already have assumed your position..I'm not going to attempt to persuade you to do otherwise.

Oh, and I meant on the part of the reader..I assume that the poster already knows what is posted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I don't actually agree that words are powerfull. Actions are powerfull..words describe them, no more.

Your mileage may vary, as always.

--Noodle

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

Knewbetter, thanks for this wonderful and thoughtful post. I hope EVERYONE will read it.. I especially like the following part of your post:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>In my view, it's just not good enough to be hurtful and then say "Well but it's True!", and rubbing someone's nose in "Truth" definitly doesn't build good relationships whether they be marital or between board members. I can't remember where I got this but I taught our kids early on to examine what came out of their mouths (when they were angry especially) by these three questions:

1. Is it true?
2. Is it necessary?
3. Is it kind?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If something is true but not necessary and kind to say, it serves NO purpose at all... As you've said, people must be careful of the effect of their choice of wording on others and there are many different ways to express the truth without being unkind, insensitive and hurtfull...

I can also use some of your advice here since I’ve used a disrespectful judgment in one of my posts yesterday. It was not kind and necessary for me at all to react disrespectfully on another poster’s unnecessary and unkind remarks.

Blessings,
Suzet

KB:

Peace right back at ya!

Good Golly, did that last thread get out of control or what??
HOW'D you let that happen? You slippen or something? (kidding of course)

When I responded to your call for WS to Stay....I had no idea it was just going to be a continuation of the thread that was eventually locked. I'm sure you didn't either.

I kind of 2nd noodle's comments on any insight I can get into the "storybook" thoughts of a WS. Since I can't relate (personally)..... I have to gain any knowledge of this type of thinking/feeling/revelation from others.

Indeed, It does help ME to be able to better understand that my W (when at this place and time) was not unique in her actions.

Like Noodle, I am not requesting you "bare" yourself like this.
Just that you do communicate very well and if you DO get the urge to give out a sample here or there.....I would definitely be interested. (Wow, put that way makes me sound like some kind of perv. or something).

To clarify, guess I'm after less of any sexual details and more of how in the midst of doing sexual things your thoughts and attitudes towards it could change or modify to the degree that they did. Cause my W went and changed a whole lot. (and all for this CLB)
CLB = Creepy Little [censored]

Anyway, I most always enjoy your posts (so happy your not threatening to leave).

<small>[ November 04, 2004, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

Noodle and KB

Yes, but if a person were first warned and then looked anyway..any offense they took was their own problem..?

Like an R or PG or XXX rating on a movie. A warning like "WS please do not read unless your up to it" or "Delicate people, bumpy ride ahead, do not read the following"

That would work, but you may wish to consult our caring and loving moderators.

k

KB, whaddya think? I'm prepared to write a bit on how a perfectly normal person turns into an alien overnight.

I certainly wouldn't put any detail that would be offensive but it is a weird process and one that I thought would never happen to me.

But, KB, if you think it would be unproductive or offensive in any way I certainly won't write a thing.

Jen

Hey Top, haven't talked in a while! Hope all is well with you. CLB?? Too funny,I could call OM, "CBB". (Creepy BIG B*st*rd) I understand what you are asking but I think you ALREADY know that your wife was not unique in the behavior changes during the affair and after.

To clarify, guess I'm after less of any sexual details and more of how in the midst of doing sexual things your thoughts and attitudes towards it could change or modify to the degree that they did. Cause my W went and changed a whole lot. (and all for this CLB)
CLB = Creepy Little [censored]

Forgive me Top, I didn't quite understand your question, my head cold turned into a nasty fever, achy body thing yesterday and I'm still not feeling the best, my brain probably got cooked. When you said "it" what did you mean? The marriage, the A? Are you refering to temporary changes or lasting ones?

Krusht: the original question was would I write a GRAPHIC recollection of the affair. My answer to Noodle was no. The point of bringing such an account up in the first place was to help her understand that using inflammatory imagery on this board does cause pain to others, and to attempt to illustrate what it would be like if the shoe was on the other foot.

Originally posted by KiwiJ:

But, KB, if you think it would be unproductive or offensive in any way I certainly won't write a thing.

Jen, you know I've always encouraged you to speak your mind. You have so many good things to say and lots of times I read something and go back and its been deleted! There was one a couple of days ago that made me laugh so hard. You were dead on with ONE short (perfect) sentence but you deleted it. Too bad b/c that was a classic! Good answer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen if you feel up to writing your account (for MB or for yourself) then you should. I personally don't have the desire to revisit and besides I already wrote it in living color as it played, so it comes down to cost/benefit for me at this point of my life. You should do what YOU feel comfortable doing. Have you asked Rob what he thinks of this idea?

LOL, KB, I don't know why I deleted that. In a snotty huff I guess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think I will write something. I don't want to revisit any of it really but the way over one weekend my whole life just blew up was so weird and I really do think it could help people to see how it happened and the thought processes behind it.

I'll write it properly first in a Word document, not in this little reply box, and then see what I think about posting.

Jen