Long post, here it goes...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You also have to remember that she contributed to the filing of a false police report to cover up a felony by implicating you which could have resulted in your arrest and prosecution. It's bad enough to have to endure two affairs but when you have a married woman that is more than willing to set up her innocent H [you] as the sacrificial lamb in order to protect her OM's criminal activities, you have to ask yourself why would he want to remain married to such a woman? I'm sorry if my words hurt you but you've got to take that into consideration when judging whether saving your marriage to a person like her is really worth it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM, I have been thinking about these words since yesterday. I am glad that you put it so bluntly. Your words don't hurt me at all. I needed to read those words. Its the actions of my WW that you described that hurts. My feelings for her, as crazy as it is that I have them still, have blinded me. I have been thinking about the changes my WW has made, since the first A. She was so loving, nice, and sweet once. Now, she is a cold and distant creature...the opposite of who I married...

When she had the first A (about 4 yrs ago), she would at least visit me, and sometimes make attempts to comfort me. She was pregnant with my son at the time(yes, he's my son, looks just like me), and swore that she and that OM were waiting for the birth of my son, before engaging in any sex. During one of her visits, I broke down crying, told her that I loved her, and that I wanted us back together. Fast forward a month or so, and she got a new apartment, moved out of OM's place, and we had plans for me to move back in. To make this particular story short (maybe I'll explain more of that sitch another time), I found out that they were having sex, and that I had been lied to. I figured that she was lying...no OM is going to let her live with him without something going on between them...but I always had that hope...and trust that she wouldn't do that to me.

I snapped. I followed the natural instincts of many BS's. DP, AO, demands...I mean, this was my W, I couldn't believe that she had sex with someone else, while pregnant with my son. To make matters worse, she chatted with him on MSN for a few more weeks, and they worked together at thier job. She didn't feel that NC was important.

We eventually split up again, for a year and a half. Still married, she slept with at least two other men during this time, under the mindset that we were "separated". This only compounded my pain, as she did nothing to help me heal in the first place. She basically used to say "The A is over, just get over it" or "you should be over it by now, I don't see what your problems is..." and "If you really loved me, none of what I did would matter..." (and other such ridiculous nonsense).

Still in love, I asked her if we could reconcile, and put all of the crap behind us. We eventually moved back in together, ironically in the same apartment that DDay (sex with first OM) happened in.

A few months later, we decide to move to another state (closer to her family there). I didn't feel that it was a good idea, but agreed, because I love my W, and wanted to do what she wanted. She eventually got a job, where she met current OM. Reading my first post at the top of this thread, I already explained that I wasn't "allowed" to meet EN's.

She tells me "I don't love you anymore, I want a divorce", and "Once we don't live together, if OM wants me, he can have me..." Then, she and OM get involved in an illegal activity (and he is on probation), and as TMCM mentioned, signed a false statement, to try and get out of trouble. If I make attempts for any SF, she says "Not right now...because you equate sex with love..." (same reason she won;t hug me anymore, or talk to me most of the time).

The marriage probably isn't worth saving, even if she hits rock bottom, realises the evil she has done, and even if she gets help. Everything she did will probably haunt me forever. It will probably affect future relationships, because I will be wary of history repeating itself.

So how to I get over my conflicting feelings? How do I deal with this? I obviously can't figure it out on my own, which is one reason for me being here on MB. I do love her one minute, despise her the next...how do I fix this? I never have any trouble solving other problems, just with my feelings for my WW. I was IC for a year before this happened (to deal with how my W was treating me), and it was joke...a waste of time.

I just feel like I'm in the twilight zone. Things just weren't supposed to happen this way. We were supposed to be married for life. Now I feel that I exist solely for my children, to make sure that they are raised properly, and hopefully to keep them from following thier mother's path. I love them, and am more than willing and dedicated to be as good a dad as I can. Other than that, all my hopes and dreams are gone. I gave up everything to be with my W, my life centered around her and our little family unit.

Sorry for rambling...its one of those days. Strong one minute, weak the next...same ol' Dimmu...just looking for input and advice. Thanks for putting up with my long posts.

edit:I mentioned that at the top of this thread, I explained I wasn't allowed to meet EN's...my bad, it was a different thread.

<small>[ November 07, 2004, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Dimmu ]</small>

Dimmu,

I heard you calling my name <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Can't quit wondering about the people here and check & read often although I know I need a break...

You are so very young, and way too young to be going through this kind of heartbreak, and with little kids.

What you need to do is make a decision. That is the hardest part, once the decision is made it gets easier by the day to concentrate on yourself.

You cannot make yourself stop loving your wife, that will drive you crazy. Resign yourself to the fact that you love her and will miss her for a very long time, but please make the decision to let go.

Once you do this, make this decision in your mind you will be free. Doesn't that sound like bliss, free from the worry, from the wondering, from the trying. Free to think about Dimmu, about finding a job, about the day to day pleasures of life once again.

Nothing will change for you or your WW until YOU change. Go to Plan B Dimmu it is time. Say goodbye to her with love and with the hope that she will find her way home, that someday she will be able to love you in the way your deserve and be able to put the family first. It may not happen, but you will be able to love again someday, maybe her, maybe someone else.

Pleae go to Plan B now and remove yourself from this constant pain.

You said you were now becoming more able to go out around people, this is good. In fact this is wonderful.

You have the brains and the inner strength to be able to turn your life around. You are a wonderful, loving, smart guy. Please don't do this to yourself anymore.

Let go, and let go with love. Start working on your Plan B letter and post it here for the others to review.

Dimmu, the hardest thing I ever did in my life was let my DD's dad go. But I had to, for my sake and for my DD's sake. I wanted a happy life and home. It was hard but if I could do it you can to. Once I made the decision, everything fell into place. And I found love again, not the storybook kind, but my heart still works and it is full of love again for another.

Take care guy.

Dimmu,

If you get the chance go check out the Pulitzer Prize winning book "The Shipping News", can't remember the authors name but it is about a guy whose wife is completely destroying whatever self esteem he had left after his dad got through with him. She has constant affairs,etc ... don't want to give too much away.

Please read this book, I think you will find it tremendously interesting, and possibly see some parallels to your own life.

weaver,

I'm glad you are still here, even though I know that you need a break. I have been lurking and posting here for just over a month, and sometimes I feel like I need a break. You are right though, as is TMCM. I need to let go of her.

I have been thinking of how I will write my Plan B letter...but I have hit a snag. I can't let her take the kids with her out of state, nor do I want her to take them to one of her relatives that live near me, because I'm afarid that she'll just take off. I was thinking of leaving my keys in my car, and she can use it on weekends she visits, while I can use her van. That way, I can maintain Plan B, without having to see her. She'll think that I am being ludicrous, but it must be done...

I'll work on drafting my Plan B letter, but it will take me a couple of days. My WW is so irritable these days, that almost anything I say could be constituted as a LB. But part of me is starting to not care about that anymore. Thats one of the reasons I was calling out for help with this thread...I can't get my emotions to stay on one side or the other. It should be "I love her, or I don't", shouldn't it? This rollercoaster ride is no fun at all. Once I get a rough draft of my Plan B letter, I'll definitely post it for review.

One of the things that I have been missing, is sleeping next to her...my sleep has been uneasy since she dumped us off. I miss holding her, having her close to me. Being able to hug her whenever I wanted or needed to. I'm not like a lot of other guys. Sure, I'm serious and act tough when I need to, but I need the closeness of a woman. That woman was her, but now it seems to be over for good. I am in serious withdrawl from this. I almost cry as I type this, because I miss how close she and I used to be.

Because of the withdrawl, especially when the side of me that is in "resentment" stage is strong, I feel like dating. But I won't do that yet, because I am still married, regardless of what my WW is doing. Talk about conflicting emotions! I don't have a job yet, so taking a woman out is out of the question. Even if I was divorced, it would probably be to soon. Plus:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said you were now becoming more able to go out around people, this is good. In fact this is wonderful.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have backslid a little in this regard. I was doing good, but I have found myself wanting to avoid going out, and being around people again...I am seriously considering trying to get on Lexapro for this. I do go out when I have to, but I feel that apprehension again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have the brains and the inner strength to be able to turn your life around. You are a wonderful, loving, smart guy. Please don't do this to yourself anymore. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe my brains and inner strength will get back to the way they used to be, by letting her go. Before I met her, I had a good job, awesome credit, and had a plan for life (at 19-20 years old). Looking back, its hard to imagine that I was doing that good. Maybe once I am out of my own fog, I can do it again! I often wonder if my WW is of the "black widow personality type" that I have been hearing and reading about lately. They tend to sabotage and destroy relationships...like our marriage, or credit, every chance we had to buy a house, affairs, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dimmu, the hardest thing I ever did in my life was let my DD's dad go. But I had to, for my sake and for my DD's sake. I wanted a happy life and home. It was hard but if I could do it you can to. Once I made the decision, everything fell into place. And I found love again, not the storybook kind, but my heart still works and it is full of love again for another. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Weaver, I hope that I can find the strength that you have. I am having more better days than the bad ones, but the bad ones do get me down. I know that it will be better for my kids, if I just let my WW go, and pick up the pieces. I truly hope that someday, I can meet someone I can learn to love and trust, and who will love and trust me. Realisticly, it will probably never be my WW...I don't think that she'll ever change.

Thanks again weaver, for your kind and wise words. Your posts mean a lot to me, as do the posts of many others on here. I am so grateful for finding this site, and for the support from everyone (even the 2x4's, I know I need them sometimes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )!

Dimmu

edit:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you get the chance go check out the Pulitzer Prize winning book "The Shipping News", can't remember the authors name but it is about a guy whose wife is completely destroying whatever self esteem he had left after his dad got through with him. She has constant affairs,etc ... don't want to give too much away.

Please read this book, I think you will find it tremendously interesting, and possibly see some parallels to your own life.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll call the library, and ask them if they have it. It sounds quite interesting, I would love to check it out. Hopefully, I'll have better luck finding this book there. The library here didn't have HN/HN, or SAA.

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Dimmu ]</small>

"The Shipping News" by Annie Proulx

I am having difficulty with writing a Plan B letter. I am having reservations about going into Plan B yet. I start feeling strong, and even angry about the situation I am in, due to my WW. I get ready to implement Plan B...then I revert right back to where I was. Missing her. Needing her. Not my WW...the W she was before all of this. Plus, I am not allowing her to take the children out of state. She'll have to visit the kids where I am, or take my (NY registered and insured) car, to visit with them. That way, she can't leave the state.

I can't imagine, that my W isn't in there, inside the WW some where. Maybe thats why I keep putting Plan B off...because in my arrogance, I think that I can help guide her back from the abyss she is digging for herself.

I couldn't help myself, and I contacted her by phone yesterday. I must be a glutton for punishment. It is bad enough that she has done these things to the children and I. But after I talk to her, I feel so empty, so hollow. Life has become so surreal in the wake of devastation that my WW has caused.

At first, when this A started, she told me not to take the entire blame, because she was partially responsible. Now, she is giving me these baseless reasons for falling out of love with me. Giving me accusations...and when I counter her accusations with the facts, she wants to change the subject. Thats why I am having trouble going into Plan B...at least half of me still loves her, and from the conversations I have with her, it sounds like she is starting to recognize the fog she is in. Maybe thats just me though...hearing what I want to hear. I just don't know...

I feel so hopeless right now. WW is doing whatever it is she does these days, while I am sitting here in my mother's house, with the children. I am having a ridiculous amount of difficulty in finding a reliable sitter. I need a job, but I can't find one that is flexible enough. My son is three, and in preschool. Its only 3 1/2 hours a day, while my daughter has a full day of school. A sitter would have to be willing to get my kids on the bus at two different times, and get them off at two different times. Finding a sitter that will work full time, seems impossible.

I wish my WW would just move here. I told her that I know she and I can't live together right now, and that I wouldn't be ready for something like that anyway. But if she lived near here, she and I could work different jobs with different shifts, and that way, not need a sitter.

She'll never go for it, even though she claims to miss the kids (though she never calls them). Her rent is high, and she won't move into a cheaper place. So she claims she can't afford to visit the kids, either. She is making really stupid decisions. I just don't understand what is going on with her!

Typing all of this, is bringing out my logical side. I think its time to stop being Mr. Niceguy...Mr. Doormat. As TMCM has said, is it really worth saving my marriage after what she has done? Thats still debatable. But I need to talk to my WW about things that to her, will be LB's. Afterall...she put me in this position where it will be hard to earn a living. We had a living, and she destroyed it. After the next few conversations, I have a feeling I will be ready for Plan B.

Dimmu

P.S.
Weaver, I got my hands on a copy of The Shipping News. I have read the first few chapters. It is quite interesting! Thank you for suggesting it.

Okay. I just got off of the phone with WW. This was after a heated argument on Yahoo chat. I hinted at certain Plan B aspects (she doesn't know about Plan A/B). I brought up divorce (in case she NEVER gets help or changes). She had the nerve to say that I had to pay for it. Ha ha. I reminded her that I am in pain, and that I didn't create this situation, or have sex with anyone outside of my M. She then said that she'll take care of everything, when finances permit (I was in a bad mood when we had this chat).

I shifted the conversation over to why she is throwing our M away, and throwing her life in the toilet. How she is so utterly different now, than she was when we met. I swear I am reaching her. She basically admitted that she does not know why she is doing these things. She knows she is doing them, but she cannot straighten herself out. Her counselor is feeding her a bunch of crap. I begged her to see ANYONE else, other than that jerk. He is basically telling her what she "wants" to hear, regarding what she is doing. In fact, things really started going downhill when she started seeing him. If I can sue this guy, I just may do that!

I asked her to move closer. I told her that she and I could get jobs on different shifts, and that would solved money/sitter problems. She said she has been thinking about it, maybe spring or summer (she doesn't want to move 2 1/2 hours away in the cold weather). This is a huge improvement over "No! I WILL NOT move!!!", that she was spouting off 3-4 weeks ago.

She also admits that she is "infatuated" with OM, and doesn't know why (I wouldn't know why either, if I was infatuated with someone with a background like his). She knows that a future with him is next to impossible. She knows I will not allow him near my children. Thier relationship is a hopeless one.

She keeps accusing me of saying she doesn't care about the children. I have never, ever said she didn't care about them (other than what I have said here on MB). She said this, because she sub-conciously realizes that she hasn't been caring about them. I told her that I was avoiding that conversation, but she keeps bringing it up. So, I reminded her that she has spent money on material things, instead of saving it for gas. She visits her sister, which uses half of the gas she needs to visit the kids. How she has people living in her house and racking up her bills. Etc, etc. She is starting to see! The fog is still thick though...

I asked her to think about what she is doing. I asked her so get some help. I told her that she is starting to see, and admit, that she has problems, and that is the first step. The next step is for her to want her to help herself.

So, maybe I'm acting idiotically, but I'm still going to wait on Plan B. I just don't feel that it is the right time. I know that I am putting myself through more pain with this decision, but I cannot help myself. I know that there is a slim chance of saving the M, and half of me doesn't even want to. But she is the mother of my children, and she must be stable if she is going to be around them. I WILL NOT let them grow up to make the same mistakes.

Dimmu

Dimmu, I do not know your whole situation..just wanted to say that so you know from what I base my words on. I'm pretty much basing them on this post.

Let's forget about Plan B for a second..but ONLY for a second.

You are not Plan A'ing either. From what I am reading here, you are coming across as needy and desperate, willing to do ANYTHING to TAKE ANYTHING in order to have your WW back in your life. You say you don't want the WW, that you want the W you fell in love with. From what you're writing, it seems to me that you'd take the WW as well. This vibe has GOT to be getting across to her. What happens when you push people? Well, you push them, that's what. You're pushing her and to quote Dr Phil, How's that working for you?

If you feel the need to strategize all of this (and I think strategy is good..it gives you focus and a PLAN..something other than feelings to base your actions on), I think you FIRST need to focus on how you can avoid this R talks. Maybe for you that will be Plan B.

I hate to recommend a Plan B before a good Plan A..but if you can't stop the R talk..then I feel you need to think about it.

Have your read Divorce Remedy or Divorce Busting? If not please check them out. They would seem suitable to your situation. These books are NOT just about a 180. I feel a 180 might be good for you as well, but you might not be ready to implement something like that just yet.

A couple of other things. You should not tell your wife things that you do not mean. For example you said you wish it would be any other man except the one she was with. 1) That would not help the situation and 2) There HAVE been other men. Were your feelings different then?


Dimmu, I don't have children with my husband, but we are separated and living quite far apart. I had truly believed that there was very little hope for us (I didn't think there was a whole lot of fence-sitting going on)..but in just the last week (almost two years since affair and 4-5 months after physical separation) things are starting to change. Not dramatically--that would not be a good thing, IMO...but slowly. Baby steps. Baby steps are GOOD!!!

If you'd like to know a little more on my situation, i'd be happy to share.

In the meantime, though..you've got to quit with the R talks as hard as that is. believe me, I KNOW how hard it is. If you cannot stop you need to think about Plan B or even something 1/2-way in between Plan A and Plan B. While the plans are good, every relationship is unique and I think each one can be modified, but you need to be careful when doing that. The best thing about the plans is that they are plans.

Thank you maddyk, for your input. I appreciate anyone and everyone who gives me advice here on MB.

I'm not really that willing to do what my WW wants, but I do feel needy from time to time, but not always. Its what I call the logical side, versus the emotional side. Kind of like the emotional rollercoaster. I'm willing to support her if she gets help though.

I cannot Plan A much, do to the fact that she lives 2 1/2 hours away, and she shows up once, maybe twice a month to see the children. She is in some of the thickest fog I could imagine. The thing is, she is starting to realize it, but she doesn't know why. I have avoided R and M talks for 2-3 weeks, but I felt compelled to talk about it with her during the last two conversations. Its only because of the last conversations, that I have postponed Plan B (and technical difficulties involving visitation without she and I having to see each other).

As I have stated, I would love to see her get help for her problems. Even if she and I don't work things out, she needs to resovle some things with herself for the sake of the children. I suppose that I am "needy" in this regard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A couple of other things. You should not tell your wife things that you do not mean. For example you said you wish it would be any other man except the one she was with. 1) That would not help the situation and 2) There HAVE been other men. Were your feelings different then?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I said: "I begged her to see ANYONE else, other than that jerk.", I meant her counselor, not OM. Her councelor practically approves and enables the A. I would like her to get a counselor who follows MB principles. But any counselor would be better than thay guy.

All of this would be easier, if I could just straighten my emotions out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you'd like to know a little more on my situation, i'd be happy to share.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wouldn't mind knowing more about your situation. I read a lot of posts on MB. I have read about many similarities in certain aspects of my WW's A's. I have learned a great deal while being here. I truly hope everything works out for you.

Dimmu

dimmu, lol...sorry about the confusion between counselor and other man...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cannot Plan A much, do to the fact that she lives 2 1/2 hours away, and she shows up once, maybe twice a month to see the children. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, but you *can* in little ways. Number one way is to stop the R talks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (not to be repetitive!). My husband lives in Puerto Rico. I live in Florida. Never mind a 2.5 hour drive...we need planes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I left in June. We saw each other in August and just last week in November. Every other month, that's the plan. So you can see that it's difficult for me to show him the changes that I've been making. Sure, I can tell him alllll about it, but there's nothing quite like seeing it, right? I do it when I can.

There is no doubt that separation makes things more difficult. There is also no doubt that not having children together makes it less likely a marriage can recover. BUT...I don't have children. I'm not in recovery yet, but things seem to be turning around for me. All I'm saying is don't lose hope and don't think you cannot Plan A.

I'd like to make some suggestions, if I may. Or rather describe what I've done. Hopefully you'll see something useful <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> One important thing to interject here. I do not have a specific OP to deal with. He did have an affair two years ago which is when things began to fall apart, but now I'm dealing with a situation in which he is dating. (no one specific..just will not agree to not dating others at this time..more on that after).

When we separated we agreed that we'd see each other every other month, talk on phone once a week. Emails and IM's would be unlimited, but no one was allowed to get mad if they were not answered promptly. We also agreed we'd date other people. We would not give each other details, but the other spouse should generally know if there was a dating interest.

Then I moved and found MB. Saw what a baaadddd idea dating others was. I decided not to date. I asked the same of him, but he will not agree to it. He indicated today that that might change, but it hasn't yet.

When I first left, I felt that he really did want to work on the marriage, but did need some space. I was very needy and desperate those first two months. I always did the R talk. Never begged him to come back to me, but definitely used logic and common sense on him. He came to visit in August and our visit went really really well. I did not feel that anything had changed, but was glad we had a nice visit. But then when he went back to PR he started really detaching himself from me. Well, you see, it was because he was pursuing a dating interest. Up until that time there had not been anyone.

My husband and I were always very good friends. Well, after a a couple of weeks of him pursuing this girl, I saw our friendship fading. My thought was...well geezzzzz...if we lose our friendship then we really don't have much else to build on!!

So I requested of him that we talk twice a week instead, and make our conversations shorter. I told him we would not have R talks unless we scheduled them in advance. That way I could have that 'r talk' need satisfied, but at the same time he was prepared for it. This seemed to work well for us, though most will recommend NO R talks.

The talking twice a week really made a difference. our talks were usually very light-hearted and since we talked more often..we knew what was going on in the other's life a little better, and had more to talk about. Plus making the calls shorter helped because there was less awkwardness.

there came a point where my own changes were becoming more pronounced and I got to the point where I no longer needed him, though I did still want him. That was the most wonderful feeling! It allowed me to step back and have a different perspective on things.

aside from phone calls, I would also send him short emails that did not require a response. Just things like I hoped he was having a good day, or relating some of the things I was doing. I also sent a couple of letters of the same type.

I still felt he was pulling away, though and when it was time for him to come visit at end of October, I was pretty stressed about the whole thing. I did not want to go back to being needy and I was afraid that seeing him would do that to me. I also felt that he was making plans with a girl while he was here (he is from the area I live in now). I felt that his love for me was finally really starting to fade.

Well, lo and behold...another very nice visit. He did not stay with me the whole time like he did last visit. I didn't feel the visit was going very well. But night before he left, we had our only R talk. He said some surprising things to me..things I had not expected. Also, earlier in the week he brought up counseling with Harleys all on his own. And we talked on phone today and he initiated an R talk..said some more surprising things. I will not say that things have really changed, but I will say that he's considering the POSSIBILITY of a rebuilt marriage with me and that's about 80% more than he was doing before.

I always make sure I know when he's got stuff coming up. He's a pilot so I make sure I ask him how his flights went..how his training is going, etc. He's looking to buy a motorcycle...I get excited for him and ask about that. He has started in martial arts again and I make sure I inquire about it and praise him for sticking with things. I think all of that has helped.

But what I think helped more than anything is me moving on with my life, while still expressing the wish to remain married to him. I'm looking to starting school, I've changed some of the bad habits I had, I've made a lot of new friends and have a regular activity that I engage in. I think he's very proud of me and no longer feels the burden of MY happiness. I believe that was one of our big problems in the marriage. I was not really happy for a variety of reasons that had nothing to do with him...and I looked to him to fill ALL of those gaps. Not fair! No excuse for his affair, but that was my big contribution to the state of my marriage.

I guess what i'm trying to say in a reallllllllllllllllllllllllllyy long-winded manner..is this. If you feel that you and your wife had a very good friendship at one time, do you feel it would be possible to renew that with baby-steps? I know you want to be MORE than friends with your wife..but if she's not giving you much right now..maybe she will be amenable to that? It's just a suggestion!

Although this must be very difficult for your children, you are fortunate that you have that link. You are able to show what a great dad you are..and it might be the one thing that allows you to Plan A her. You may not be able to Plan A in the sense of fulfilling her EN's. I was not able to and I think anyone who is physically separated has a hard time doing that. But you CAN stop judgements, teaching, etc. And you CAN work on yourself. Even if it seems she can't see that...she can. Hell, if my husband is in Puerto Rico and see it, I'll bet your wife could too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you for sharing your story, maddyk. I am glad that things are looking up for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you feel that you and your wife had a very good friendship at one time, do you feel it would be possible to renew that with baby-steps? I know you want to be MORE than friends with your wife..but if she's not giving you much right now..maybe she will be amenable to that? It's just a suggestion! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My WW and I did have a very good friendship in the beginning. I stopped hanging out with all of my other friends as often, because I enjoyed my time with my WW. But she has gone through many negative changes, and has put me and the kids through a bit of torment. Baby-steps could work in some areas, but not in others. I feel that she needs to get some real help for some of her issues. She seems to be on a downward spiral. She knows this to an extent, but doesn't know why she is. Her family treated her bad, and wasn't there for her as a child/teenager. Now they just corrupt her, and I think that she is letting it happen. I think she is letting it happen, because of the fact that her childhood was the way it was. Its hard to explain, but if you knew these people, you would understand (lots of A's and D's, and a lot of A enablers/supporters).

Getting her to at least think about moving away from them is a big step, because baby steps won't work well in that situation. I would love to see her get back to her old self again, if its possible...

Dimmu