You get called out a lot don't you.

I know I'm going to regret calling you out but you never reply when I respond in the middle of someone else's post.

There are many, many people here who have not had false recoveries.

You said almost 100%. Whew, I DON'T think so.

As a FWW who has happily recovered her M and NEVER had a false recovery I think I'll just skew your statistics a bit. (I work for an academic researcher and we are very big on statistics where I work at the university).

I was also told by my H, see him again and you're out the door. Um, I didn't want to lose my H or my marriage so I've kept to that promise.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KiwiJ:
<strong> You get called out a lot don't you.

I know I'm going to regret calling you out but you never reply when I respond in the middle of someone else's post.

There are many, many people here who have not had false recoveries.

You said almost 100%. Whew, I DON'T think so.

As a FWW who has happily recovered her M and NEVER had a false recovery I think I'll just skew your statistics a bit. (I work for an academic researcher and we are very big on statistics where I work at the university).

I was also told by my H, see him again and you're out the door. Um, I didn't want to lose my H or my marriage so I've kept to that promise.

Jen </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOu know KIWI, do you really think that you are upsetting me or jabbing me with this revelation?. ...LOL. I am happy for you, I really am, your recovery is how I wish it was for me and others here. BUT..........Read the boards, read the stories, are you gonna tell me that False recovery, continued betrayal is NOT the norm here????????????? Don't give me antectodal evidence. Give me some evidence based research. I want you to look up the next TEN posters here and HONESTLY tell me how many of them had recoveries WITHOUT any withdrawal or more importantly false recoveries or further betrayal. Use your academic history and let me know where we stand on this. Good day to you and congratulations on your recovery. I am happy for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I don't mind getting called out a lot on here. I am rather unique in my stance on things here and I realize that with my beliefs I am gonna be disagreed with a lot here. I am ok with that, I am a big boy and can handle it. If I oculdn't, I shouldn't be posting my thoughts. Thanks for the post by the way.


***edited for clarity***

<small>[ November 04, 2004, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

Gee, now you're asking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I've been posting here since February and I've seen people come and go. Some have been as recovered as us, some not.

I think I feel so strongly about this because my H and I used all the principles here, I got helped along by so many people, got whacked over the head, stormed off in a huff (but keep coming back), got angry, laughed, cried, the lot. My H thinks I'm nuts talking to a bunch of strangers on a message board but has read all the books that go with this site. He's only posted once and that was to thank everyone for their help.

I'm not trying to jab at you but I must admit you really get me going. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen

You have to appriciate that you can always count on LM to tell you how he sees it. He does not sugar coat it. he almost always covers his butt too. I think it is good to have people like him on the boards to keep us leveled off. I think we are all a little too hard on him, however he does take it in stride. He has also learned that we are people with feelings and he needs to turn on his bedside manner <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KMEJ:
<strong> You have to appriciate that you can always count on LM to tell you how he sees it. He does not sugar coat it. he almost always covers his butt too. I think it is good to have people like him on the boards to keep us leveled off. I think we are all a little too hard on him, however he does take it in stride. He has also learned that we are people with feelings and he needs to turn on his bedside manner <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL, you know Kmej, my bedside manner is quite good (for a surgeon).....it is the residents that work under me that might beg to differ on me....LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . If I was someone who believed in MB wholeheartedly I would also take shots at someonle like me. What I never want to do is every hurt anyone here. There is enough pain here already. I always fear giving my opinion that is OBVIOULSY in stark contrast to what people want to hear is going to hurt someone. I was vilified on the Preg board b/c I was deemed "not supportive" b/c someone was ranting on about an OW being the root of all her life's misery....Well anyways.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You liked that post huh? I am sure your bedside manners are fine, just joking with you. THought you would see the humor.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KMEJ:
<strong> You liked that post huh? I am sure your bedside manners are fine, just joking with you. THought you would see the humor. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did see the humor.....take care. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Lemonman,

If you don't mind me asking, what lures you to the MB forums?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> Lemonman,

If you don't mind me asking, what lures you to the MB forums? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I am not sure anymore. At first when I first registered it was just for comfort (I lurked), in the interim I started to realzie that I genuinely like some of the posters on here. Also I guess I am glutton for a punishmnet in reading these very very horiffic trajedies. I din;t know wometimes, but lord knows it is to much lately.

Don't most cancer patients come out of remission too , and many or most eventually die of their disease?
I guess it means cancer treatments are a false hope and we shouldn't bother with them.

Or are the ones that DO get cured worth trying ?
* strokes chin *

lemonman,

Your bedside manner reminds me of Dr. Cox on SCRUBS (and I bet your residents would agree) Heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> However, if you notice, even in his Dr. Cox way, he is mildly lovable and ...

...oh who are we kidding?? He should be an olive in a martini!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> heehee (devil horns protruding)

Okay, Dr. Cox bedside manner debate aside, I would like to remind you of two important things:

1) Those who stay on MB are generally those who continue having problems. It's like a good surgeon--once you cut out the right thing, the patient doesn't keep coming back! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Those who enter a good recovery after an A no longer require our services and so they split--except for a few diehards like me who stick around for (I don't know--certainly not the salary!)...the glory I guess. Thus, people discover the A, expose it, learn about EN's and LB's, the A ends, NC is established, and the two spouses start to meet needs and things get better. Those aren't the folks who stick around!! The surgery worked for them and they are all better.

2) Those of us "old timers" who do stay around do not necessarily worship the MB Truths and the ground they walk on. The MB concepts are just that...concepts. They are "Simple Relationships 101" and are worded in ways that are simple and easy for almost anybody to understand. They are generic and generalized in order to help the "maintstream" "middle of the road" folks. The MB concepts are not the "end all/see all" of relationships or how to recover from an A.

BUT...the concepts can work. The concepts can also go much deeper and be applied much more maturely and intimately. The concepts can be personalized and adapted to fit the more unusual sitch's and less "mainstream" events. Not every concept fits exactly into the mold. Yet they are a starting step and can be the beginning of how people go from having NO connection and NO intimacy to having a mature, healthy, intimate relationship.


CJ

Some statistics from a survey of 1083 people whose spouses had an affair, conducted by therapist Peggy Vaughan (www.dearpeggy.com)

76 % still married and living together
9% married but not living together
2% legally separated
13% divorced

Theres a popular assumption that most affairs lead to divorce, but it seems to be because, in those cases where divorce happens, people talk about the reason why. On the other hand, most couples who stay married don't talk about the A with outsiders.

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 04:12 AM: Message edited by: smur ]</small>

1) Surgeons and bedside manner...surely an oxymoron??? And as a nurse, I reckon I'm pretty qualified to speak on that one!!

2) Statistics...what's the saying about that?? Lies, lies, and damned statistics?? They can be manipulated in a lot of cases to portray whatever you want, unless the study is very scientifically rigorous.

3) MB Principles - I was a complete failure. Possibly partly due to the fact that I came to MB too late, possibly because the problems were too complex, but also possibly because I couldn't handle Plan A. I always felt like I was prostituting myself, as my exH kept taking and taking, the more I gave. In the end, I had nothing left to give, and found myself becoming incredibly resentful about the whole process. I also felt that I was forever subjugating my own needs for his, and he actually liked that. I do believe he has some 'power and control' problems, and I felt like I was playing into his hands a little bit. In his view, it was my job to meet his needs, and my own needs were unimportant. The more I met his needs, the more he expected it. I just couldn't sustain it. A simplistic explanation of a very complex problem. I still fall victim to that power/control thing at times, but I'm trying to improve on that front - I think it's become a learned behaviour with me, and I need to sort it out pretty quick if I'm ever to move on to a successful relationship, the thought of which at the moment scares the living daylights out of me!!

Lemonman, I have no problem with you putting an opposing view to the MB principles - it challenges those who don't agree with you to examine what it is they believe and why, and it gives those of us who agree with you, someone to identify with....although I have to say that I never thought I'd see the day when I identified with a doc..it's the end of the world as we know it!!

Don't work too hard in the ER...or Cas. as we tend to call it here in Oz.

M.

I really enjoy the lemonman..and what I think he may be noticing..yet missing at the same time..is that a lot of "false recovery" episodes occur when the BS uses poor judgement and foggy thinking themselves when their dear little wandersome one wants to come home.

When a BS refuses to be moved until and unless the WS has truly turned their back on not only the affair..but the lifestyle leading up to it..and had demonstrated this and their commitment to rebuilding the marriage over a significant period of time prior to coming back..I think that false recovery is in fact not the norm.

Trouble is..because they love them..they are all to eager to declare the sick cured..it's easy to convince ourselves that things are true when we desperately want them to be.

BS will drink sand and call it water just as surely as WS.

.02 Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong>BUT..........Read the boards, read the stories, are you gonna tell me that False recovery, continued betrayal is NOT the norm here????????????? Don't give me antectodal evidence. Give me some evidence based research. I want you to look up the next TEN posters here and HONESTLY tell me how many of them had recoveries WITHOUT any withdrawal or more importantly false recoveries or further betrayal.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">whew! You dare to insist that she not use anecdotal evidence, when that is exactly what you are doing? You are jumping to the wrong conclusions about Marriage Builders because you are using anecdotal information.

You are basing your entire estimation about MB on the posts of posters who are currently on this forum. First off, the posters on this forum are mostly NEWBIES who are new to recovery, new to the program. That is because most of the successful ones MOVE ON.

They don't need this forum anymore. So you see, your conclusion is skewed BECAUSE you are using anecdotal information.

It sure would be nice, though, if you would take to time to research your subject, ie: marriage builders, before you condemn it. Wouldn't that be the intellectually honest thing to do?