I have been struggling with this question for weeks now. The papers are ready and both of us have signed it but it was done because of hurt and anger. It was not done because both of us want the divorce so I am stalling.

WH is still with OW but at the same time showing encouraging signs that he is feeling extremely guilty and ashamed of himself. However, he is unable to stop the affair. I know he needs help but he does not want to and refuse to try.

He was a good man I married and still is. He has not said or done anything cruel to me. Still a doting dad and pays the bills. Would come to my rescue anytime as long as I don’t show too much lovey dovey stuff because he said it makes him feel so guilty. All his actions are natural reaction of a WS and I can understand that. WH is very confused and feels tremendous amount of guilt whenever he is with me and so he avoids me. This in turn hurts me and so the cycle repeats itself.

I thought his was an easy sure to end fast kind of affair but this has lasted 13 long months.

I don’t think I have done everything according to the book but I did try my best. I read up on everything, visited so many sites, printed so many articles and prayed as hard as I can.

I can forgive WH and I think I may have already done that because I no longer feel so much anger toward him despite the fact that he is still waffling and going out with OW. Despite the fact that he is still rubbing the affair in my face. Despite the fact that he has hurt me a hundred times over. Yes…I think I have forgiven him and will forgive him for each time he did that. I no longer feel angry. The hurt comes but it does not last long and I don’t think of it much anymore.

However…when will his affair end?

If I divert back to plan B I don’t think it would help me. I really miss the intimacy of another man and this makes me very vulnerable and I don’t think I can last any longer. Its very tempting to close the door on WS and no longer look back. I don’t want to be a WS so I feel maybe I should divorce him now so I wont feel bad about having a relationship with another man.

My 5 year old wants her dad home and that puts a big burden on me. WH is not going to put the papers in. I am pretty sure about that.

So what do I do? How do you know when it is really over for you? I thought feeling don’t care is a reason for divorce. Then I realize it was my pain and hurt doing its trick and not the real reason I want the divorce.

What should be the reason for divorce?

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: zizzycool ]</small>

zizzycool,

The pain and especially the desperation are palpable in your post. It is hard not to identify with each and every feeling, reason, rationalization that you have listed. Let me quote a very cogent post from a very wise "noodle"


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> think that it is over..when you decide that you have invested all that you are willing to..when you decide that even if she were to be contrite at some point in the future and wish to reconcile..that you simply do not wish to build a life with her as she is a liability. You decide that she is a poor candidate for long term intimacy</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exchange the she to he and I think that you have one of the best pieces of advice that I have EVER read on these forums.

My prayers are with you.

My dear,

you could also ask yourself: what would be the reason NOT to divorce WH?

Make two lists, pro and con and compare.

If you would divorce:
I can imagine a divorce would be a symbolical way of telling WH you're done with him, as you are done with the M.
You would then take the risk (providing you really want him back) that he'll think you never ever want him back, because you agreed to (or insisted on) divorce.
You might tell him that you still love him but you'd rather divorce him now under these circumstances. And that you would even consider marrying him again if he stops the A, agrees to NC... you know the drill.

If you don't insist on D..
you are sending him the message that you still want him back. If you stick to plan B (no contact etc) you will still make it clear that he has to choose if he wants you back, that he can't have you both and get away with it.

The question really is: what do you want?
Do you want this D just to feel free to have sex (sorry to put it so bluntly) with another man without being a WS yourself?
Please realise it's not a good idea to just get out there, start dating etc. just because you need intimacy. Unfortunately it's not that simple, unless you refer to ONS and take the risk of abuse / STD's / whatever that you might encounter with strangers. And friends might fall in love with you.. it's not nice to use people... Or you might fall in love (or think you do) with someone who will prove to be totally incompatible with you. Etc. etc.

Please give yourself some time to put things into perspective my dear.

Sorry Cymanca, I don't get it, why would this particular WH be more of a liability than any other WS?

Do you mean that plan B has no use, because "even if the WS were to be contrite at some point in the future and wish to reconcile..that you simply do not wish to build a life with him/her as he/she is a liability. You decide that he/she is a poor candidate for long term intimacy" ???

Do you mean that WS should get the chance to get out of the fog, and the BS is better off getting rid of them?

These people have know each other for 18 years!
Do you really believe there is no chance this WH will come to realise he wants to rebuild his life with his wife? That there is no chance he might really recover? Then why would any other WS recover?

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]</small>

Brownhair,

Sorry to threadjack zizzy. The point being made by noodle is a rule of thumb that I feel applies to virtually everyone ( other than a FWS) on this forum.

This particular WH is NO DIFFERENT than any WS on this forum. I would give you the analogy of a tree branch. The leaves are filled with all the reasons, excuses, rationalizations that zizzy and most other BS have listed as to why or why not they should stay in their M's. All are potential reasons for the M to end at the hand of the BS. Noodles quote summarizes those "leaves" into the trunk of the tree. The BS abandons the WS when that universal need of intimacy can not and will not ever again exist in that M.

In a very simple concise statement she was able to summarize ALL the real reasons that any BS walks away from the M.

Hope my analogy works for you.

Brownhair...thank you for answering. I work with a lot of men and it gets hard not to compare to what i missing right now. I know the consequence if i do end up dating right now and this is what i am avoiding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Cymanca...that is a good advice...i think i have not reach that point yet... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> WH is still a good candidate for long term...he said many times that this is the only time he will cheat on anyone. WH said he cannot imagine doing this again in future. In fact now he is avoiding me to avoid cheating OW.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> This hurts me so much and yet i understand his confusion.

He has already divorced you in spirit by having an affair.

Believer noted that 2 years is the time Harley recommends for WSs to come to their senses.

Cherished

zizzy,

I know that you have been through hell and back and I don't want to seem like I am getting in your face but can you explain

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This hurts me so much and yet i understand his confusion.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are not only willing to put up with his behavior AND he has YOU making up his excuses for him, my dear, what more can ANY WS WANT?

I have no problem with you stating: I am addicted to my H and am willing to do anything, think anything, and swallow anything that he is willing to dish out. If you can live with that, you are as satisfied with your life as he is. AND there is NOTHING wrong with that so long as you understand, acknowledge and accept those conditions.

I am going out on a limb here but I do NOT believe you are willing to accept those condition..that's the reason we are both here on MB.

Not sure of your faith, but, personally, when you can feel you are right with God to make that decision. IF you feel that divoricing moves you further away from God, then, I would say you aren't ready yet.

If you are waffling like this, I think you really should plan B. And do it for real. DOn't let your husband 'rescue' you...don't let him get any of those feelings from you. That is your real plan b. The emotions he seems to have makes me think he believes you are always gonna be there.

Hang in there.

Dear Zizzycool (like your name, BTW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )
Please be careful with over-identifying with your WH's emotions. Don't forget about your own needs. You are a valuable, special person, you are worthy of a good, stable, loving AND exclusive partner.

A friend of mine had a relationship (still has, sort of anyways) with a man who always had some other girlfriend. She knew that about him and "agreed" to that sort of relationship, even though she would never have another man.
After 15 years she needed a quadruple bypass. Her heart simply couldn't take it.. Unless you are the "swinging" "free love" type of person yourself, this isn't a good thing for your health. Get out. Get your own identity back. If your H really wants to work out things with you again, and if you still want him, he'll HAVE to deal with whatever made him have an A.
((((Zizzy)))) - check out the OT-Humor thread on GQII for a laugh my dear.

Cymanca, thanks for clarifying. I guess it's true that at some point every BS has to decide they can trust their WS again, that they are really FWS's. Some people make stupid mistakes and learn from them. Others never come to realise they made a mistake (blaming others). And some simply don't learn and keep on making the same mistakes over and over.

Brownhair...i definately am NOT that type of person to hang on to someone who continues to do such thing. WH is not the type of person you describe in your story and that is the problem. WH is a good man overall. The overall shell is still strong but just broken. I have been with this man for 18 years and i know.

Cymanca...I have read everything about WS and try to understand their reaction. I am a strong woman...and i CAN kick his [censored] out anytime. I can close the door and never look back but i need to know...because i can do this...is this good enough a reason to divorce him?

Rook...I believe you may be right...i think i need to distant myself to get my head straight...d or not to d. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

zizzy - I'm in the same position, only I did it too long, and now have had a ONS. I probably should have put much more effort into getting divorced.

I don't know where WH lives to serve him, but could have put an announcement in the newspaper. Basically I was just too worn out by all of this.

So now I am just staying to myself and waiting to see what happens next. But I have lost my love for WH - or maybe I should say I love him, but don't want him in my life. I don't even know the man he has become.

I think believer hit the nail on the head.

My earlier quoted words had to do with deciding.."Do I want to spend my life with this person?"..not can I end the affair..not can I essentially "win"..but do I want to be with this person..not who I want them to be..not who I thought they were.. this person flaws and all for the rest of my life?

If the answer is no..I think D is the best option.

Noodle

Noodle,

Thanks for the clarification of my clarification on your quote. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zizzycool:
He has not said or done anything cruel to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't think abandoning you to live with OW is cruel?

interesting....

Pep

PS... "feeling guilt" is easy. Doing something to correct the guilt-provoking behavior is not so easy. To me, a "good man" is one who has courage, integrity and honor... to each his own.

Do I get it correctly that you did a plan B, then your H came back to you, but he's still seeing OW? If so - wow - you need to set your boundaries! However guilty your H is, that's not stopping him from seeing OW. In all the fog he probably feels guilty towards her too. Add to this the addictive feeling of an A.. that's a recipe for disaster.

IMHO you need some real shock treatment here to get this patient back into reality, or least, in an orbit around it!

Tell your H you cannot live like this. It's her or you, plain and simple.

I do have this naughty idea - but you'd have to feel relaxed and comfortable when you tell him - ask him if he's ok with you starting to date other men, since he's dating OW. That you should have a "backup" partner too, in case he decides to leave you... That might shock him back into reality.

In fact, one of the posters here did something similar while her H was living with OW, and it was her therapist who suggested it. She never really dated another man, but made it seem that way in an innocent way, and that made her H realise he WOULD lose her if he didn't get his act together.

You do understand that you cannot say such a thing in a sarcastic way, you should do it almost casually so he'll really get scared that you MEAN it and are not just saying something to hurt him.

Hmm... maybe just a naughty idea. Hope it can bring a smile to your face my dear.

Pepperband...if i let my anger go...i will say that he is the most cruel person in this world. But when i sit and think about it...no he is not cruel...at least not as bad as some other WH i have read about in here. Btw...WH is living on his own and not with OW but he is seeing her everyday.

Cherished...i still have another 11 months to go before i reach the 2 year mark. I am not sure if i want to wait that long but i said the same thing 8 months ago. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Believer...i love you gal. I feel for you too.

Noodle...i know...and i am still seeking for that answer...yes or no... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Brownhair...NO, WH did NOT come back because of plan B...i broke plan B because i wanted to go into plan D...no point not talking if you are heading there...it is during my contact with WH during this period that i sense a lot of pain, guilt and confusion in WH.

I was so ready to D WH until i reach a point where i understood what it is like being in a WS position. I also realise being a BS...we have our own fog of pain which cloud our own judgement.

This cloud of pain that eventually lead BS to Divorce...this same cloud will justify everything to avoid the pain and humiliation i feel...to stop the pain it tells me to go on with my life and leave WH...to stop the pain it tells me my daughter will be able to cope and it will not hurt her...to stop the pain i am feeling it tells me, WH is a worthless piece of crap that is not worth saving...

If i put the pain aside...sit and think...i realise that WH is not that bad...i can forgive that piece of worthless crap...i might not forget but i can forgive him.

Yes...i have tried that jealous trick. I stop because i was afraid that i could end up doing a ONS myself if i am not careful. I decided no more man for me until i divorce WH. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It is just papers. Then again why is it so hard to decide to do D if it is just papers...

What should be the reason to divorce WH?
You divorce for one reason.
Because you no longer wish to be married to him.

Not because you're angry.
Not because you don't wish to try anymore.
Not because you're hurt.
Not because you are tired.
Not because you don't love him anymore.

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> What should be the reason to divorce WH?
You divorce for one reason.
Because you no longer wish to be married to him.

Not because you're angry.
Not because you don't wish to try anymore.
Not because you're hurt.
Not because you are tired.
Not because you don't love him anymore. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting points Chris...
but what if the BS is contemplating divorce because they are angry, tired of trying, hurt, and losing all of their love for their spouse because of the spouses inactions/actions, then what?

are you saying this are not reasons to contemplate a divorce? Maybe Plan B is a better route, separation, breather???

but what if the BS is contemplating divorce because they are angry, tired of trying, hurt, and losing all of their love for their spouse because of the spouses inactions/actions, then what?
Then Plan B.

are you saying this are not reasons to contemplate a divorce?
Yes. These are not reasons to contemplate divorce.
These are definitely reasons to contemplate what you have done in/for the marriage and what you can do to make it better.

Maybe Plan B is a better route, separation, breather???
That is exactly what Plan B is.
When a bs is done with Plan B, they will be reconciled or they will no longer want to be married to their spouse.
Ideally, the bs will (or should) have worked through all the issues and will simply not want to be married to the ws anymore.

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>