My H went snooping and found a draft of a letter I was considering posting on the Private Forum asking Harley about whether or not to separate permanently.

Here is what my H wrote to me when he figured out I was considering separation, and I'd appreciate any feedback on what this means.

Dear Kathleen,

I am not even sure what I want to say about your desire to terminate our marriage. I suppose, I should understand since your decision is based on my behavior. It seems that most things I do or say are interpreted as “Tom does not care about how I feel”. I do not think that is the case, but it seems to be your view.

I thought I might write out how I said I was in no hurry with individual counseling with Jack Q. and try to explain what that means, but when I do try to explain I just end up in deeper trouble. I guess I have tried to convince you by my words and not by works. You apparently are interested in works.

It is funny because what comes to mind is something you wrote in your document to Harley about a “demonstrated effort”. I think that would translate into our Catholic world as a “firm purpose of amendment”. I thought that is what I was showing by having no contact with Sophia and trying to wait for you to settle down so we could work on our marriage. I don’t think I quite ever understood that how the damage I did to our marriage would be carried so painfully by you for so long, and that, not only the conflict and guilt I carried with me because of the affair, but the continual “punishment” by you over a two year period would leave me so impaired in my ability to feel empathetic to your desires. What the past three years have left me with is a fear of having a relationship with you because of all of the conflict we have been through.

I am trying to work on what I feel is the problem. I am not quite sure how to get over the guilt and pain of the affair. I have had a very hard time reconciling how I, who have done little in the way of harm to another person at any time in my life, could have done so much harm to you. However, what is as stunning to me is that I had spent a good part of my life in trying to protect and care for my soul, yet in one fell swoop over an 8 month period, I broke more than one commandment and did extensive damage to my eternal soul. It frightens me that I have broken the relationship with God in such an extreme way. I have not reconciled with that yet either.

I think I will stop here with my writing, except to say that I am not sure what to do at this point. I am tired, but do not want to sleep here. I am afraid of waking up and having my bags sitting on the front steps or maybe all of my belongings in the garage when I get home from work tomorrow. I suppose it is better than not knowing. I wish I could understand how it could work, but I don’t.

When you are ready to have me leave, please just tell me and let me pack my bags without getting in a big fight. I know that I have screwed up, but if we are going to separate, please try to not be angry toward me. I am doing my best.

Bye
Tom

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

So you went to the weekend? When was that? Are you doing the follow up lessons? Have you asked for a mentor? (Do they still have mentors? I volunteered as one for a long time but I don't know if they ever had others.)

He seems sincere in a desire to rebuild. If you have that you have more than half the battle.

C

He wouldn't go to the weekend, but he did agree to go through the follow-up program which is like the self-study except we purchased the accountability portion as well. He has not been willing to spend 15 hours per week except for 5 weeks in the summer when I threatened immediate divorce if we didn't make the hours. I think Harley may have spent as much or more time with us than with almost any other couple -- he's responded to about 80 of my e-mails to him on the Private Forum.
Cherished

And your H has not corresponded with Dr. Bill? Has he heard him speak or met him at all? Is he willing to work with anyone?

Tell me about the accountability portion - I don't think they had that when I took the training.

Edited to add: Would you mind if I looked at your posts in the private forum? If it's ok with you - what section did you post in most often and how long ago - it's always so difficult to navigate in there - switching from one board to another means reentering the pw each time.

C

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Cherished....
This may sound unbelievable...especially as a BS...but I feel really BAD for him. He is horribly guilt ridden...internally...even though he outwardly wants you to know you contribute to the so called "guilt trip".

How are you taking this ?

I think this is a door opening...but I don't know YOUR situation well enough to make a good decision.

What do YOU think this means ?

My H could take a look at it..if it would help you more ?

Ok - I hope you don't mind but I spent the last hour or so digging around on the pvt boards reading your posts. (Good grief - could that place be any worse to navigate? <sigh>) So, I have a pretty good idea of where you've been and what you've done so far.

I would completely agree with Dr. Bill about your next step. It is certainly time - although tipping your hand might not be in your favor. And I think I have some other things I'd like to ask but I want to know if it's ok to do so publically or if you'd like to take this off the boards.

I'm generally not around on weekends but feel free to email me if you like penny.tupy@symcinc.com

C

BetrayedinNewJersey, yes, I would appreciate having a WH look at it. If you aren't familiar with my story, my H actually punched me because I was threatening to call this woman who kept calling him and it would be rude of him to hang up. The punch was 12 days after I weaned our 10 month old before surgery for pelvic-floor problems due to childbirth that was about 25% a hysterectomy. My ulna was broken in 7 pieces, and I had three surgeries for it, and was in a cast or splint for 4 1/2 months. He is no longer physically violent, and he rarely swears, but his emotional abuse continues. I don't want to hear about Sophia -- nothing about her or the affair -- not how I won't forgive him or how I think he's always wrong because of his "porr judgement in my relationship with Sophia" or how he still has feelings for her...I am confused, and the two therapists are confused. He seems sincere, and yet he is so mean to me. I told him just on Tuesday that I don't like the "character assassination." He asked when was the last time he did that, and I said FIVE MINUTES AGO, you said, "Your world has always been small." He refers to the A as his "one mistake." That is BS ... He has told me more times than I can count that the problem is I won't forgive him. I finally told him that the problem is that I confuse forgiveness with tolerance.

Cerri, go ahead and give your thoughts. The cards are on the table, so to speak. My therapist conveyed the message to his that "the marriage is hanging by a thread." I can't cope.

Cherished

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

Cerri,
Is there a way to pull up old posts on the Private Forum? If so, how?

Cherished

bump

Dear cherished:

I read Tom's letter to you. I see so many parallels between your and my situation. My H always complains, too, that I am "punishing" him for the A. Probably that impression has lead to his withdrawal and aggressive behavior.

I think my H is frightened, too, that he will find his bags packed one day in front of the door.

What a tragedy our marriages have become. Cherished, I feel it is a vicious cycle. We and our Hs dig ourselves deeper and deeper into it. Your H says he has no empathy for you anymore, same is probably true over here. My H is on a business trip right now and has not called me again this morning.

I, on the other hand, I am very tired of not having my needs filled. I have been in survival/emergency mode for two and a half years now. I don't want to walk on eggshells anymore. Always worried, always afraid. I am finished with it. I hate having those little scraps of "caring" thrown my way, just to get my hopes up, and then get the silent and cold treatment the next minute.

As opposed to your H, mine still is verbally abusive. He has a huge anger problem that is starting to affect the kids now.

I finish my professional training Dec 31. After that I am free to make a decision. Some days I am sure I want a divorce, to get out of the vicious cycle, to stop this continuous pain, that is like Chinese water torture. Then on other days things are bright and sunny and we are crazy in love with each other. Those days I feel I never want to live one single day without this wonderful man.

I asked this before on another thread: are we BS mentally disturbed????

Cherished, I see that you are grabbing at every straw there is. Harley, MC, Penny. You are really making an effort. Is it helping you?

I find that analyzing issues in MC is affecting me greatly. I am getting more scared and desperate, because I start to see the magnitude of H's character and childhood issues. And I start to feel I can't beat those odds, no matter how much I try...

Maybe, Cherished, IC is better for the you and I to move toward letting go of Hs? What do you think?

IP -
I am letting go. I don't want to be married to Tom if we are unable to find a way for us both to be happy. My IC seems to think he is a narcissist who is incapable of caring -- and what he has done lines up with that view in many ways. His view of care seems to be that I stay with him no matter what he does, that I trust his judgment, that I support him in what he wants to do, and that I forgive him when he hurts me. I cared for him in that way for several years (1998 - 2001), and he ended up in an affair because "I ignored him." No. I didn't ignore him. He left the marriage and wandered into an affair.

We're in an end game now. Harley is recommending immediate separation, and my IC is recommending that I give him some time in IC to see if he is capable of caring.

My willingness to stay married hinges on his willingness and ability to meet my needs. Harley seems to think he is able but not willing at this point to go through the program of recovery. My IC seems to think he is incapable. Whether incapable or unwilling, I'm not sure it matters ---

I must honor my own integrity by not subjecting our still-young children to witnessing a mother who accepts disregard as the model for how people behave in marriage.

He's still verbally abusive. It does affect me sometimes, but I'm getting past that. I'm beginning to pity him. The greatest joy in life, I think, is to care for another person, to make them happy. That's not sacrifice. That's joy in being with others, being happy with them and making them happy.

Who knows? His IC may be able to work with him, and my IC may be able to work with him, to create a marriage that is mutually caring. Harley's program is about developing habits of caring even if you don't have feelings of love or care. Tom wasn't willing to follow it. I do believe it would have worked if he had gone through it.

Now we are at the very end... A "Hail Mary" pass... I feel satisfied that I have done everything I could to have us have a mutually caring and satisfying relationship, and I have come to accept that "marriage takes two."

Thanks for asking about me. I think you may find, when you dump your H, you will feel better about yourself. No one deserves the treatment that you got. No one. On a funny note, back in the summer, my mother-in-law confided in me that "When I found out what happened, I was very upset -- with you!" I chuckled and said, "And I was upset with Sophia!" She responded "No...no" and I said, "Until I realized that Tom's behavior is Tom's responsibility."

My sister once said, "Put him out of his misery." I am coming to believe that it is not possible for us both to be happy while married to each other. I would never be happy unless he was happy, and I don't think that is possible. When I come to think there is no way that we can be happy together, then -- for his sake, for my sake, and for the sake of our children -- I will ask for a legal separation. I still believe in the permanence and sexual exclusivity of marriage, and I will always honor my marriage vows, but I have come to realize that honoring my marriage vows does not mean putting up with neglect, abuse, and/or infidelity. I've had my part to play in this drama, and so I am willing to give Tom a pass on the past. It's the present and future that concerns me, and at this point, it doesn't look good.

Cherished

Having read only the posts on this particular thread, and reading between the "lines" of his letter to you, it seems Tom has decided what is the most important thng in the world to him - Tom.

The cynic in me concludes that letter is a piece of manipulative crap, trying to spread his guilt to you. Woe is me. Wah Wah Wah.

Dear Cherished:

in our MC sessions, which we just started two months ago, the depth of H's childhood trauma is coming out. I had one individual session with our MC and she told me that she feels it will be "very difficult if not impossible" for H to change. I was crying my heart out after that session. I came home and wished to speak with H, but he did not want to talk with me about my session. H has said all the time since d-day that he was so eager to change and to never let himself "sink so low again". I believe that is what he really wants. He is so happy when we are together and doing well. Those days that we cuddle with the kids in front of the fireplace and we are his family. He was very lonely in his family when he was a child, and I feel in those moments when we are his family now, he feels secure and loved and happy.

Unfortunately he and I have made many mistakes during recovery. He perceives it as me punishing him. I never meant to do that. If I did it, it was unintentional.

Many times I have felt like I was drowning in this pain and I wanted him to rescue me. To make this go away. When I asked him for help, I often got the cold shoulder. And that makes my pain so much worse. I cannot understand, why he does that. It is uncaring and cruel.

You are talking with many counsellors, Cherished. Has that helped you to see your own feelings better? Many times I feel I am loosing the sense of what is real, unreal, right or wrong.

For example: When I went to the domestic violence center after H hit me last year in January, the counsellor there told me that I could get killed. That what H had done to me was "Aggravated assault" and he would go to jail if I filed charges. I was shocked, because I had minimized the violence and its danger in my mind, probably just to be able to live with what had happened. Denial...

We have not had any violent fights recently. MC was very careful to teach us (better DRILL IT INTO US) how to avoid escalation. So far it has been working. I behave differently now and H as well.

Cherished, are the counsellors always right? They get an impression in one hour a week. Yes they are trained professionals...but how can they say there is no hope?

I want this M to be a loving, caring, lifelong union. A safe place. A peaceful place. Now that H is away for five days, I miss him so much. I don't like the walking on eggshells, the pain, the emergency mode. But I miss our conversations, the warmth that they can have. I miss him as he is at his best. confident that we will overcome this. Understanding and caring. CARING.

If there is a chance for us it lies in the fact that our Hs need to learn to care for us. Always- at all times, no exceptions, no excuses...It has to become a way of life for them. A habit. Can they learn it? Can they change?

Cherished,

I just realized from reading this thread, who you were. I was around when you first were posting about Tom and Sophia - I must have missed the name change.

While I don't really have any advice for you (as only you will know when enough is enough - and you will know because you will be mostly at peace with your decision), I want to say how proud I am of you.

Remembering your posts from back when I began posting, I can see the amount of emotional growth you have gained.....and I am proud of that. What once was seemed like an unstable, emotional, possibly dependent person has shown how strong and how resolved she can be. I see you now as a woman with strength, and who took control back of her life. That makes me so proud and happy for you.

Whatever path you choose, I have no doubt that you will find happiness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

(((Cherished)))

Love ya!

Pep

Thank you, especially L.I.T., for the encouragement. A friend of mine recently told me that there are no moral dilemmas, only the appearance of ones.

My moral dilemma has been: how do I honor my wedding vows when I married a man who became abusive and unfaithful?

To most people, this would not be a dilemma at all.

Cherished

P.S. WAT - this letter seems to open itself to different interpretations. It doesn't say, "I'll do what it takes today".

<small>[ November 09, 2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cherished:
<strong> Cerri,
Is there a way to pull up old posts on the Private Forum? If so, how?

Cherished </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, didn't see this til just now. Decided to cough and hack my way through real work the last couple of days instead of trying to infect everyone at MB and SYMC with a virtual cold. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

To the best of my knowledge there is no good way to find anything on the private boards. When I was mentoring MB weekend couples I would go look at their posts there to get a feel for where they'd been and what sorts of things were going on. Couldn't even do a search on a member # - had to hunt through each board reentering the pw each time. And half the time I got logged completely out and had to start from the beginning....

Oh, I'm sorry, am I whining? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I would really like to talk to you in more detail about your situation. There are questions buzzing in the back of my brain (I don't think it's too much cough medicine, anyway...) and something feels like it's not being addressed.

Did you post Tom's letter to Dr. H and ask for his input?

C

Cerri,
I think what is done with the Private Forum is e-mails are removed and you cannot read them again so that people feel more free to ask questions. I have saved all my e-mail exchanges with Dr. Harley -- all 80 of them. I am somewhere around 20% of the total e-mails he's done since February.

No, I didn't show Dr. Harley Tom's letter. I considered doing it, but I had a more pressing issue. Dr. Harley is recommending separation, and I wanted to understand what terms there would be for reconciliation. It would make sense to have going through this program be the condition for staying together, but we've already done that. Tom has made it unpleasant to be with him and has argued "Why not 14.5 hours?"

Feel free to ask me questions.

Cherished

Hello Cherished,

I don’t know why I feel the urge to do this, but I’m going to give you my, a FWS’s, interpretation of Tom’s letter. I will try not to be too flip, but man that is going to be hard.

Dear Kathleen,

I am not even sure what I want to say about your desire to terminate our marriage. I suppose, I should understand since your decision is based on my behavior. It seems that most things I do or say are interpreted as “Tom does not care about how I feel”. I do not think that is the case, but it seems to be your view.

Humm, he doesn’t know what to say about your desire to separate? Well, I think he does know what he feels about it and it scares him. He is realizing that his marriage may be in serious trouble and he may not be able to talk his way back into it.

I thought I might write out how I said I was in no hurry with individual counseling with Jack Q. and try to explain what that means, but when I do try to explain I just end up in deeper trouble. I guess I have tried to convince you by my words and not by works. You apparently are interested in works.

I think this means that he is beginning to see that he is going to have to actually DO something to save this marriage and not to just talk about it.

It is funny because what comes to mind is something you wrote in your document to Harley about a “demonstrated effort”. I think that would translate into our Catholic world as a “firm purpose of amendment”. I thought that is what I was showing by having no contact with Sophia and trying to wait for you to settle down so we could work on our marriage. I don’t think I quite ever understood that how the damage I did to our marriage would be carried so painfully by you for so long, and that, not only the conflict and guilt I carried with me because of the affair, but the continual “punishment” by you over a two year period would leave me so impaired in my ability to feel empathetic to your desires. What the past three years have left me with is a fear of having a relationship with you because of all of the conflict we have been through.

Yuck. He wants you to feel sorry for him because he has denied himself the companionship of Sophia, and he did this at great personal expense to boot. He did this for you and you should be grateful. I think this paragraph is about him finally realizing, at least intellectually, that he ill used your marriage. He doesn’t want to be reminded of the affair. Doing so is punishing him and you should JUST STOP IT NOW!

O.K. for an aside. I know what he is saying, I’ve been there. I don’t know how much guilt he has, and what exactly he feels guilty for. When my affair was over, and the grieving for the loss of the OP finally stopped (I hate to admit it but I did go through horrible withdraw) I had a tremendous about of guilt, I still do even after three years, but that is a different issue. I felt guilty for many things. I felt guilty that I broke my marriage vows. I stood in a room-full of people, made a series of promises, and I broke many of them. I grieved for the loss of my personal integrity. I grieved that I loss the trust of my wife, that I ill-used her, that I put my marriage at great risk, that I put the family life of my children at great risk. I felt guilty that I could ever be so damn selfish, and really that is what affairs are, egocentric nonsense. I felt pretty damn stupid too.


I am trying to work on what I feel is the problem. I am not quite sure how to get over the guilt and pain of the affair. I have had a very hard time reconciling how I, who have done little in the way of harm to another person at any time in my life, could have done so much harm to you. However, what is as stunning to me is that I had spent a good part of my life in trying to protect and care for my soul, yet in one fell swoop over an 8 month period, I broke more than one commandment and did extensive damage to my eternal soul. It frightens me that I have broken the relationship with God in such an extreme way. I have not reconciled with that yet either.

More self-centered tripe. He was a saint that erred, now forgive him and move on. Don’t you see how sorry he is? He risked his soul and every thing.

I think I will stop here with my writing, except to say that I am not sure what to do at this point. I am tired, but do not want to sleep here. I am afraid of waking up and having my bags sitting on the front steps or maybe all of my belongings in the garage when I get home from work tomorrow. I suppose it is better than not knowing. I wish I could understand how it could work, but I don’t.

When you are ready to have me leave, please just tell me and let me pack my bags without getting in a big fight. I know that I have screwed up, but if we are going to separate, please try to not be angry toward me. I am doing my best.

Bye
Tom

It seems to me that Tom isn’t ready to admit that the responsibility of the affair is his and his alone. It doesn’t really matter if you were a terrible wife (I’m not saying you were, just using this as an example) having an affair is incongruous with having a loving marriage. You two are supposed to protect each other and keep the best interest of the marriage in mind.

I don’t know the whole history of the abuse stuff. I don’t hit. Some people do. I can be more cruel with words than I ever could with my fits. Both suck. I would say that if he does raise a hand to you again . . . remember that his crotch is now exposed.

CN

Thanks for your reading of it.

I think that people stay in abusive relationships because the abused (that's me) has learned to accept responsiblity for the abuse. Tom tried that with the affair, and it didn't work.

The first words out of his mouth when Sophia's husband told me the truth were: "I think Sophia is trying to destroy our marriage."

Later that day, he said, "You were a terrible wife."

Can I ask you why Tom would bring up Sophia during the affair and also since then? Some of the more memorable examples:

During the affair:
He admitted to having lunch with her the day after my birthday because he felt bad because he came home on my birthday and I didn't seem to respond the way he expected. My reaction was to get so upset that I called her, he threw me down, I decided I had a problem, and so I went into therapy.

I had major surgery for childbirth related injury and he didn't come see me the next day. (I learned later he had lunch with Sophia.) On the following day, he told me he was concerned he might call her.

On the morning he broke my arm, which was 12 days after the surgery mentioned above, he said he was concerned Sophia might call him to wish him a merry Christmas. I threatened to call her, and he broke my arm.

He said that he wanted to go to a retirement party at his old department. I asked if Sophia would be there. He said he expected she would. I asked if he would talk with her. He said people knew they were friends and so he expected to. That did it. That's when I called Sophia's husband and told him what I knew and that's how the affair came out.

Since then:
We were practicing affection and Tom said, "I hate to tell you this, but Sophia kissed me to arouse me."

In early July, Tom told me that he still has feelings for Sophia and he feels guilty about it.

I said "Tom -- cool it" when he humiliated our D for not understanding her division problem and spanked the 3 year old for getting into the Halloween candy. He left the house, I called him, and he said, "Why am I always wrong? Is it because of my poor judgment in my relationship with Sophia?"

Even as a BS, I am sick and tired of hearing about Sophia. I have been told by many people that affairs are common, but his bringing her up during the affiar is what is unusual. Instructions in MB is specifically no talk about Sophia or the affair. I don't want to talk about it. Why is he bringing it up?

Thanks.

Cherished

<small>[ November 10, 2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>