Dear LL:

You never answer me and probably you disagree with my opinion and experience. I have written to you a few months ago about out-of-control teenagers.

I am sorry to say that you are enabling your daughters behavior. Take this pregnancy scare as a SERIOUS wake-up call. You have the power to set boundaries for your daughter. Do not allow her to walk all over you.

She breaks the dishes...no money for her until the new ones are paid. She throws the silver ware on the floor, she is not going to leave the house until they are picked up- by her. She does not help with cooking, there is no food for her.

You are thinking that you are fixing your relationship with her by letting her get away with everything. It will make it worse. Find your voice, LL. You can tell us here how your daughter's behavior makes you feel. You can tell her.

Teenage pregnancy, drugs, delinquency, dropping out of high school. To prevent that be firm with her. That is the only thing that works: for tough teenagers in Harlem and for your daughter.

PS: Get her to planned parenthood for birth control- injections work well for irresponsible teenage girls.

<small>[ November 09, 2004, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Iceprincess ]</small>

lordslady,

This is how I see it playing out.

Your daughter should NOT be going to Paris. School is top priority right now.

For some reason, I do not think that they really want to take her. They might be setting her up for disappointment. They are seeing that trip as a romantic rendevous for them...and a 15 year old girl isn't usually a part of that.

Are they taking the OW's child? If they are, your daughter might be the babysitter that they will desperately need over there...and they will be using her.

Passport...does your daughter have one already? If they are talking about going the end of this month, they are gonna be hardpressed to get one in time.

I really, really think that you should have NEVER given your permission for this trip. You would have had school counselors on your side in your quest to prevent them from taking her with them.

Are you the primary placement parent right now? If so, you could have petitioned the court for a temporary order that prevented him from taking her OUT OF THE COUNTRY. It is not usually allowed pending a divorce like that.

She will be angry...and she will be defiant and try to "punish" you for this. Tell your soon to be XH that she is NOT going...and if he pushes the issue, you will go before a judge.

JMHO
committed


P.S. She seems to be needing some intervention for her angry outbursts too.

My daughter was a real handful from 15 to 17 yrs old. She will be 22 this month and so much better.

Our relationship is better too.

There is something to be said for tough love...being firm. Don't lose hope.

Your husbands bad examples has hardly helped your kids.

Think about what you need to do to help her prevent herself from allowing herself to get pregnant and to recognized all the ramifications/consequences of her choices. She may have had a close call this time...I hope it will be a wake up call for her.

Just wanted to give you hope that she will eventually grow up and probably won't be as difficult to deal with.

When my D was 19/20 I help set up an aupair/nanny position in Italy for 6 months. She really appreciated her own mom (me) lots from during that experience. She is now a full time student with her own goals and direction.

This is such a sad time for you feeling so powerfless. I felt similar to you when an OW was trying to steal my husband and children. It was awful. Sending you my prayers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OW and STBX are happy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sweetie - do you REALLY think so???? Were YOU ecstatic with an alcoholic husband???? Do you think OW or your H is pleased as punch that OW is still married and so is he???????? C'mon....they put on these masks for you to rub the salt in the wounds......and it's working baby. They're hurting you. Over and over and over again....and you are WAY too good a mom and human being for this. Let your dd go to Paris.....but honey, I want you to put 10 a paycheck away each and every time you get paid. Do you know what an ALL INCLUSIVE trip (including airfare AND DRINKS, AND FOOD, AND SNORKLING AND A BEACH VIEW) to Cozumel is in December (maybe not THIS December for you, but soon)????? $750....THAT'S IT! That's all. You wanna do SOMETHING....you do it LL. I'm gonna....and you are gonna too!

- Kimmy

Iceprincess,

I'm not intentionally ignoring you. I agree my daugher needs boundaries. I just seem to be powerless to set them. The biggest problem is the part about not letting her go out.

I work. She gets home from school at noon. She has been an escape artist since she was a toddler. At 2-yrs old, she opened all the door locks and walked 4 houses down the street before any of us were awake. She was able to escape any and all car seats and booster seats we had for her within about a week of their purchase. At three, she opened childproof vitamins she got out of a high cabinet (two things I didn't think she was capable of doing) and ended up in E.R.

My point--she is a very strong-willed, very creative, and very slippery girl. And just saying, "DD, you can't leave the house while I'm gone because if you do, I will do such-and-such" won't work. She has managed to sneak out several times even when I'm there. I can't hear cars pull up in the driveway or her shut the front door if I'm upstairs. Like I said, she's even done it when I've been in the shower.

I've tried. I've taken her computer, her stereo, her everything. All she says is, "Fine, you took away everything I have. There's no reason for me to be here or to try. I don't care."

I've taken to leaving all pocket change of mine in my desk drawer at work, so that when I want to buy lunch, I have money. Otherwise, I carry NO cash because if I forget my purse on the table and I'm up in my bedroom doing something, she takes the $.

And I have been lambasted by the STBXH and OW for not providing recreation money to her. I responded, "I don't think she needs it if she doesn't pull her weight around the house." They respond by providing it to her themselves.

So...trip to Paris. Too late, I've already given my permission for her to go, because I fear if I fight on this one, that it may be the defining factor in her deciding to live with them and not with me. I have talked with the school and expressed that I am not in agreement with the situation. It will be my daughter who suffers in the end, because it will seriously affect the # of credits she's able to earn 2nd quarter.

Yes, pregnancy scare is a HUGE wakeup call, at least for birth control. If indeed we are able to confirm 100% in another week that she isn't PG, I will have her somewhere putting her on something IMMEDIATELY.

Committed,

I actually do think they want to take her to Paris, but in my opinion there are 2 reasons.

First, STBXH is angry that I took both kids to Disney in June. I explained to him, I was taking OUR kids on a vacation with MY money. I was not taking a vacation with some other man I wasn't married to, and then letting kids tag along.

Second, I think STBXH and OW are doing everything in their power to get one of our kids on their side. They gave up on our son. He's very angry at them and they know it. So they're focusing on our daughter. They are, in my eyes, "buying" her love and her loyalty.

The passport issue is a question in my mind as well, but having never gone out of the country, I don't know what the laws are for minors traveling with their parents. I know traveling domestically, that the security laws with airlines are very lax when a minor under 16 is traveling with a parent. They seemed to make it sound like if I signed and notarized this statement, that a passport wouldn't be required. I'm fairly certain they've checked it out with an attorney. Their problem, not mine, if it's wrong.

I know I could have petitioned the court to not allow him to take her. But if I do, they will unleash the fury of hell on me and I could end up a LOT worse off. I've never met a woman so crafty and controlling and manipulative as OW. Pair that with my STBXH's anger and his defensiveness and it has the makings of a very ugly situation that everyone loses in, including my daughter.

As for therapy and/or intervention, I think both she and I need to learn how to deal with our anger. I have called her school and asked to have the therapist call me. He works under a state grant, and often he will counsel for free. He's just very busy, so is hard to see, but he is good (other than he doesn't share my Christian beliefs so we have a few issues there). I can't afford to pay full-price therapy for the two of us.

My insurance only grants 20 sessions per person per year, at 20% deductible. That works out to a little over 1/month, and if you don't like the therapist after a couple sessions, you've blown those away and are starting from scratch with only 18 sessions left. So I've not pushed therapy as hard as I should have, but am trying to get in to this guy. I counseled with him some last spring, before school let out.

Whistles75,

I did want to go to the appointment with my DD, but there was no set time. I had no idea when OW was taking her. I called this morning and asked DD if I could meet her there. She said "NO!". So I didn't push it. I did remind her that I was there for her regardless of how things turned out. She hung up.

fihghtingalone-again,

You STILL have physical custody. Whether the final papers are signed or not.

I have physical custody now. However, I just spoke with my attorney and he said the child basically makes the custody decision with their feet. Even if my STBXH signs the divorce decree stating that I continue to have physical custody, if my daughter goes and lives with them, they can take me back to court, state what has happened, and the judge will modify the decree to show that he has custody (and that I pay him child support).

I could fight it and try to prove he was unfit. Attorney says that would cost me around $5,000 (which I don't have). Even if I prevail, my daughter could STILL take herself down to STBXH's place and move in. So I might not be paying child support right away, but I'd be out the $5,000 and would have still lost the child, too.

Frustrating set of laws!!

As for the Paris trip, he says I should withhold my signed statement giving permission for her to go until they sign the final decree. I don't think I can get away with that without them unleashing the fury of hell, but the final decree will be in my hands tomorrow. I will review it, and hopefully have it in STBXH's hands by Friday. If I could pressure him into signing it that day to get the DV final, at least he'd have to take me back to court to try and change the child-support part of the custody arrangement.

It's all so darned frustrating right now. I'm feeling very beaten because I've tried so hard to be a good mother and may end up losing my child anyway, and I've worked my rear off since I was 19 to get materially what I have, and may end up losing that, too.

"May", I know, is the key. But I'm paranoid now. And I DO believe in self-fulfilling prophecy.

LL

I would find it very hard to believe that they will be able to take her out of the country without a passport. I really doubt it is possible.

But, there are ways to get passports much quicker than usual. I can't believe they wouldn't have it all in worked out before purchasing her ticket. They can't be that stupid....or can they?

I too would be very surprised if one could enter France without a passport AND a written declaration from the other parent (AND, it might be that the note has to be notarized...or some other legal process).

Your best thing to do is let her go to France, and tell her you hope she has a good time. Maybe before she goes go to the Library and get some background information. Tell her since you've never been, you'd love it if she would take lots of pictures of the scenery (not exH and OW) and share them with you.

It's so hard, I can only imagine, but I think you're best not to fight it. And, travelling IS an education when approached correctly. She can learn a lot while there, things she would never know otherwise. Might open her eyes to the bigger picture. Some WWII info. might be good, with Vetrans Day (we call it Remembrance Day in canada) coming up soon. My daughter went to Dieppe, and saw where her grandfather's fought. She was very moved. See if you can steer her focus to lots of fun, and "some" learning.

Then you save up, and you go to Paris someday.

LL:

Your daughter definitely needs a passport to travel to France and to return to this country. The US have one of the strictest immigration policies in the world. She has to apply in person in one of the local passport offices. Because she is over 14 years old adult rules apply.

The regular application is processed in about six weeks. For an extra fee expedited service is available which takes 2 weeks.

Here is all the information: US Passport Information

Do not mention anything about the passport to H or daughter. Let them deal with it ON THEIR OWN.

Let me introduce another thought...have you heard about the "Divorce Busting Strategy", where you turn your reactions to spouse 180 degrees in the other direction? And you act like you don't care one bit about the other person. This may be an approach that could turn your daughter around. Someone had a thread on this a while ago here.

Why are H and OW pushing so hard to make friends with daughter- because they want to get back at YOU. So she moves in with them...then what? Now they have to deal with a rebellious defiant teenager on top of a toddler...doesn't sound like picture-perfect family life to me. You are interested in rocking H and OW relationship...well, this is a sure way to achieve that.

LL, you have two choices. Either you set boundaries with daughter and practice "tough love", or you do 180 and give her the "I couldn't care less about you" attitude.

Whatever you choose - stick to it. No wavering from one day to the next. I think you would be more successful with tough love, practiced CONSISTENTLY.

<small>[ November 09, 2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Iceprincess ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The passport issue is a question in my mind as well, but having never gone out of the country, I don't know what the laws are for minors traveling with their parents. I know traveling domestically, that the security laws with airlines are very lax when a minor under 16 is traveling with a parent. They seemed to make it sound like if I signed and notarized this statement, that a passport wouldn't be required. I'm fairly certain they've checked it out with an attorney. Their problem, not mine, if it's wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">lordslady,

She has to have a passport to travel ouside the US. She doesn't travel on a parents passport. I know that my 2 and 4 year old were each issued their own passport many years ago. They no longer allowed for them to be listed on mine...they traveled individually and you can bet they were checked when it came time to board that plane to Europe.

It might just fall through with that alone.

committed

Stupid, OW is not. (Stupid-acting most of the time, yes..)

I wouldn't be at all suprised if she has had the papers in the works for my daughter's passport for some time, in case they decided to take her along.

And yes, the permission statement from me does have to be notarized. They want it within the next couple days or my STBXH will get an attorney involved.

LL

ll,

Tell him to have his attorney contact yours. Maybe between the attorneys they can persuade him that it is not something that he wants to do. He cannot take her out of the country without your permission...no more so than you can take her out of the country without HIS.

committed

<small>[ November 09, 2004, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

My prior advice was to "go with the flow" regarding your D going to Paris. However, I do like the posts which advise you to do NOTHING about informing them of the rules.

Now, you'll know if they are getting a passport, because I'm pretty sure you'd have to sign the application. If nobody comes to you with paperwork, then they are not doing it. Either that or they forged your signature...which is a very stupid thing to do.

I am dealing with a 14 y.o. son who is driving me crazy with his lack of respect. I've been tough loving, he's even tougher. I get migraines over him. I took him for a drive the other day, to drive past the military school that I suggested he might go to if I don't start receiving some respect from him. When he realized where he was going, he walked out of the car at a stop sign. It was busy traffic, and by the time I turned around, he was not to be seen. I panicked. called the police. They got the canine squad there. Seems son had hid in the bushes when he saw me going back and forth looking for him. It was cold, he had on only a tee shirt. He was found one hour later, walking home. I don't know what to do when tough love doesn't work. He's not into drugs or smoking that I can tell. His friends too are not into that kind of stuff (again, only from what I can tell). But, if he continues with his attitude, who knows! I'm very worried. So, I can relate to how you're feeling about your D.

I have an 18 y.o. daughter who's been great (if you ignore some really testy pms days). She's not perfect, and sometimes she frustrated the heck out of me...but I never worried about the path she was taking in life. She's doing well in University.

My 13 y.o. son is getting frustrated with his brother...and I fear that the anger may turn him nasty as well.

I raised them all with the same love. Why are they SO different?

<small>[ November 09, 2004, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: JanetS ]</small>

I think that people might need a visa in addition to a passport to go to France.

That was once the case. More paperwork,etc.

I just had an interesting thought. If they say they want your DD living with them, and she insists on being with them, maybe you could negotiate. Give them full physical custody..keep joint legal custody (joint decision making)in exchange for no child support on your behalf! Hmmmmmmmmmmm Wonder how that would go over???

No, you do not need a visa to go to France or anywhere else in Europe.