Lemonman, I am sorry for the snide tone of my reply but not for the message of it. You hover like a cynical vulture awaiting signs that any efforts at recovery have been thwarted by the caprice of unrescuable wayward spouses.
You must understand that it takes not WEAKNESS but great STRENGTH from both BS and FWS to accept occasional steps back as they ove forward from the abyss of infidelity on to a better marriage.

For me and MANY others the love for our spouses makes a decent effort at recovery worth a try.

That there is backsliding or partial slower progress does not obviate the value of TRYING even if recovery seems far more hopeless than it does in my situation.

The dynamics of affairs means that it takes selfless love and support from the BS with no guarantee of giveback plus NC for as long as it takes for the FWS to view the affair with objectivity.

Demanding stuff early on in recovery will gain only a divorce. It isn't hopelessness or weakness to present these 'demands' as non LB requests in a context of loving care.

You should celebrate every small success of the earnest people who ar etryingto recover their marriages on this board, not aver that every predictable setback confirms your view that marriages are not rescuable, IMO.

You know Bob, I am just going to tell you this: Good luck with your recovery. Yes, you should be applauded for taking her back and trying to recover. Congrats.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM thanks for your nice,if LOADED support <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I needed to say what I said. I hope we can be friends , albeit with different views concerning recovery.

For what its worth I do not need to be "applauded for taking her back". It wasn't a charitable act on my part , it was in part duty and in part the rational desire to recover what has been for the major part, a great marriage for my OWN satisfaction and support and that of my kids and W.

I had the right to NOT take her back but also the right TO take her back as I choose.

My decision was not instinctive, but rational once the shock and self pity abated.

And don't think our life is at all unpleasant right now. Better in fact than for most of the previous year or two. And improving our marriage has the focus of both of us right now.

Sure the hurt of the affair may always be with us but in no way invalidates the hope of recovery in my opinion.

Best of luck Doc.

Now now boys! Behave yourselves.

LM, I am so with you in your opinions but I'm guessing that your situation is totally different to Bob's. I think, like me, your WS was just not repentent enough for you to consider giving your marriage a second chance. So, for your own peace of mind, you had to move on.

Now Bob, on the other hand, has a wife who really does appear to be trying to get past this. She is showing, both in words and actions, that she knows she has made a terrible mistake and is trying to make it up to him. Speaking from where you are (separated), I know which choice I would have preferred. I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to save a marriage so long as the two people involved put equal effort into their recovery. 50%/50% or forget it. Ours was 95%/5% so what was the point. I care about myself too much to sink that low.

Anyway Bob - romantic yes, fool no. Can't she at least get those bloody letters out of the house. Show her the post from the Kiwi lady. They actually had a burning ceremony. It might just help her to see how important such 'trivial' matters are to a BS. TT

TT
50%/50% or forget it. Ours was 95%/5% so what was the point.

On D-day my missus contrubted ONLY staying in my house, but bearing in mind he is an unemployed wastrel and she is a SAHM she didn;t have a whole lot of choice.

99%-1% working on saving the M.

That didn't improve until after I first exposed to OM GF, which after the spite bomb immediately afterwards recovered to 90%-10% effort from the both of us on our recovery. That was after a month.
That improved up to 20% effort maybe from Squid until OMs estranged son died.

She dropped to zero for weeks until she called om and he told her to **** off.

Since then she's contributed maybe 5% more per week. Now we're working probably 60% me 40% her on recovery.

This isn't reticence on the part of my W, she has not been able to contribute more owing to the synamics of affair addiction. Shes actully doing pretty well !

Now I can hold it together for a while longer while she gets strong but soon, maybe by year end, we need a 60/40 contribution with Squid offering the larger part to recovery.

Only she can heal ME in our marriage and she needs to do that soon.

patience I guess ! Paying off so far.

<small>[ November 10, 2004, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

BOB- I did not know those letters hurt you so much. I am sorry about that. But you should also take in consideration that you know where they are, and you had copies of them, you know the content of them. That should give you some kind of relief I would assume. KNowing where they are and what they say.
Please dont base the recovery of your marriage in the destruction of those letters. She has her reasons for keeping them, I am sure they are not romantic or nostalgic ones.
She wants the marriage to work as much as you do.
She loves you and she is showing it to you.
Please,give her time to sort her mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

MYRTA

Bob, you are quite a phenomenal(?) poster. You just keep on churning them out and they are all very readable (you'll be pleased to know!) Do you wonder what might have happened had the OM not told her to ****-off? I'd hate to think my WH came back to me because the OP no longer wanted them. Kind of second best. Yuk. She really needs to keep up her good work because I think you love her deeply. I can't find those feelings for my man.

Over on the Idiot thread, I saw you asking about presents for Xmas. I don't think it should be a really expensive gift - I heard diamonds being suggested. I reckon a plane ticket to somewhere romantic (Prague, Paris, Rome) or even a London package (hotel, theatre, massage etc). That way it is also a gift to yourself because you deserve it. I think you're in the Midlands - right? Is there someone who can have the kids and maybe you can celebrate the new year away. A new year, a new beginning. That's my bright idea. God I would love someone to do it for me! TT

<small>[ November 10, 2004, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
<strong> LM thanks for your nice,if LOADED support <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I needed to say what I said. I hope we can be friends , albeit with different views concerning recovery.

For what its worth I do not need to be "applauded for taking her back". It wasn't a charitable act on my part , it was in part duty and in part the rational desire to recover what has been for the major part, a great marriage for my OWN satisfaction and support and that of my kids and W.

I had the right to NOT take her back but also the right TO take her back as I choose.

My decision was not instinctive, but rational once the shock and self pity abated.

And don't think our life is at all unpleasant right now. Better in fact than for most of the previous year or two. And improving our marriage has the focus of both of us right now.

Sure the hurt of the affair may always be with us but in no way invalidates the hope of recovery in my opinion.

Best of luck Doc. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob:

Ofcourse we can be friends even though we disagree IN PRINCIPLE with alot. I have the utmost respect for you as a human being for the way that you have handled this obviously painful situation/time in your life. I am not the "cynical vulture" that you think I am. Yes, AT TIMES my actions may lead you to belive that, but in the end I am "one of the good ones", I just don't always show it. I may not be in marital recovery, but I am in "personal recovery" and that is something that we will have common ground on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

P.S. Did anyone ever tell you that you have a flair for writing? Your handle of the written word is quite impressive I must say.

Hey Bob, just want to tell you that thanks to this thread you have made me get rid of the very last piece of evidence that I kept from my A with the OM. I threw all my letters etc away 5 months ago but kept a silly keyring which he made(don't know why I held onto it). Well, it's in the dustbin. I definitely do not want any reminders anymore. My marriage is perfect at present and I plan to keep it that way.

Yeah, LM's right. For a scrubby little council estate boy, you do have a flair for writing. So have you booked your tickets yet? TT

JL:

So, do YOU know where the phrase "freeze the balls off a brass monkey" came from?

It has a similar "military" origin, but it goes back a bit further in time than WWII. JL will probably remember, though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long
P.S. edit: Alas, it appears it may be a myth!

<small>[ November 10, 2004, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Bob:

"Almost all truly FORMER WS come to consider teh A a bad and regretable thing and also change their view of OP.

My shouting and cajoling won't speed that up - it may even cause her to yearn for OMs gentle lying."

This is just one of the tidbits of true wisdom you would NOT have gained if you'd taken the DV option.

Yes, you have the right 2 choose that option, but you would not have learned the things you are learning now if you'd gone that route.

stuff 2 think about,
-ol' 2long

bob:

Okay, and 2 take the heat of LM a bit here, I'm going 2 differ MARKEDLY from the Harleys on this point:

"Only she can heal ME in our marriage and she needs to do that soon."

Nonsense. YOU are solely responsible for your healing/happiness. NOT her. YOU are responsible for loving HER in the M, not her for "making you love her". This opens up a can of worms related 2 conditional versus unconditional love that we get in2 periodically on here (most notably on Mark's thread a 2ple of years ago: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=008568 ).

Now the heat's off LM and on ol' 2long! (T-zero/Qfwfq on the Mark thread). But I just LOVE controversy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

2l I stand by what I said. Only she can heal me IN OUR MARRIAGE. I am responsible for my personal state of heart and mind its true but Squid must heal me within our marriage IMO.

I must either accept the lack of healing behaviour from Squid OR she must actively help to heal me from the wounds she has caused.
Who else can?

BlueIce, good for you. Now, does your husband know about this? It is a great deposit, if you can find a way of letting him know...like, checking the garbage daily, and moving that back to the top of the stack, until he asks about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Maybe that would be good for you too, to everyday throw away the OM into the garbage!

I remember back in the day Kiwi, you took a gentle nudge of convincing on the smoke and picture pitfire! Glad I didn't have to do that with BlueIce.

My wife also has a couple of things that I see around the house that are reminders of OM. I am just like Bob on this, waiting for her to step up to the plate. Giving her that opportunity to show me her love. Unfortunately, I don't think fww's get it on this subject. They really, well, are clueless unless it is shown to them. Grrr.

I'm trying to play out the conversation of just throwing the stuff away myself. Discovery of missing items... anger... "I was keeping that!" - Oh, for what? Well, I was keeping you, but...since you are still so enthralled over that garbage, maybe that is where the whole marriage belongs. ROFL. I think I better just leave the crap alone for awhile, a bit too much anger there still for me to open up that can.

Bob, I understand your delimna COMPLETELY. Lemon, it seems every post you make, you try to start something...I can empathize with your pain you are in, but, really. To sit there and say look, ALL of you are wrong, and I am right...could this perhaps be indicative of something else? I hate telling people to reflect a bit on themselves, but man, I've seen way too many posts calling you specifically on issues you've posted. Probably more than any other in the year or so I've been here. I think that means something more than just 'talking out the side of your mouth'.

Bob:

"2l I stand by what I said. Only she can heal me IN OUR MARRIAGE."

Difference in semantics, I suppose. I can't make sense of that statement. Only she can heal herself, and you yours, in my view. The Marriage is a different thing - a contract that's been broken and needs fixing.

"I am responsible for my personal state of heart and mind its true but Squid must heal me within our marriage IMO."

And just what/who are you, "within your marriage?" What does that mean, exactly?

"I must either accept the lack of healing behaviour from Squid"

What is "healing behavior?" How do you expect it 2 manifest itself? I really don't know, is why I'm asking.

"OR she must actively help to heal me from the wounds she has caused.
Who else can?"

You can, by realizing that who and what you fundamentallly are - your integrity, love, empathy, compassion, understanding, spirit - can not be harmed in any way by the actions of another person. I've said this before: Your ILLUSION of a happy marriage was shattered, wounded if you will, by the selfish choices your W made. You can take that event as a trigger for personal growth (which I believe you are doing), 2rning adversity in2 oppor2nity. OR, you can villify your W and expect 2 be repayed for the horrible things she did TO YOU by having an A.

See? Same "event", but very different perspectives.

Whatever you decide 2 do, each and every day you get another feather of spri2ual growth in your cap by going through the process. Same goes for your W.

-ol' 2long

2l I agree its semantics, or my inarticulacy.

It depends what you consider to be "healing". To you it appears to mean what I would call " coping" i.e. managing to live with the effects of a trauma without it disabling your ability to live healthily and fully by appropriately effecting your reponse to it, without external help.

To me that is a seperate process than 'healing'.

To COPE with Squid's infidelity I have had to reasess my every assumption about life, love, my future, my happiness and , well, pretty much everything else. That process isn't complete - maybe it will never be actually COMPLETE but I have taken great strides. If we split over this I will be VERY sad but I will survive and be happy one day again. As with the various bereavements I have suffered over the years I have made sure that I do not use denial an self-delusion as coping mechanisms, as they are not sustainable.

"Healing" is where efforts are made to set right or rebuild what was broken or hurt. I cannot do that alone. I can COPE WITH the holes in myself: MANAGE them, but fixing the holes or rebuilding elsewhere needs external help, be that counselling and/or the person who caused the hurt who is now repentant.

I have a very clumsy lexicon when it comes to describing this stuff. The English are good at moaning and news reporting but no use whatsoever at verbalizing emotional stuff !

In summary: I can COPE with and manage the effects of this trauma without Squids help - I have HAD to so far in fact - but for me to be HEALED of teh hrt within our marriage NOT as an individual person, Squid must help me.

IMO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can COPE with and manage the effects of this trauma without Squids help - I have HAD to so far in fact - but for me to be HEALED of teh hrt within our marriage NOT as an individual person, Squid must help me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey Bob... I think you and Squid are doing great... you are doing MUCH better than I did at the three month mark of rebuilding your M...

Three months and you can already see hope. Bob, I know that it hurts when Squid doesn't throw away old letters... I know it hurts when her actions don't quite match what you, as the BS, expect... But remember, it's only been three months since D-Day... and only two months since NC...

Keep your chin up and know that you are well above the 'curve' as far as rebuilding your M goes... It took my W and I a bit over two years before I really 'felt' the feelings that you are so desiring to feel.

You and Squid are on the right track. Recognize your pain, but try not to dwell on it. Look for the positive things that are happening in your M...


...and know that we are all pulling for you!!!

Semper Fi,
RIf90

RIF thanks !!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I know I'm impatient..but only on here believe me. AT home an din life I am not pressing her hard, just consistently (but gently).

Squid's come on so far so fast its great really. We both have. I never dreamed God would place us HERE so soon after disaster. I am humbled by His intervention sometimes...

I've come on FAST through study and YOU brilliant wise heads...Squids has come on fast perhaps because of the dual 'rockets' of OM dumping her hard AND OM going completely dark enforcing NC.
He has a bad gig in his life right now but it HAS meant that we have a little more space than MANY folks have to recover.

My issue with the letters is that Squid OBVIOUSLY loves me - almost at the 'romantic love' level from time to time and NEVER hateful or dismissive of me in the last 3 or so weeks YET she still keeps those things IN MY FACE knowing they sting me.

Squid has a selfish streak - always has - and that needs to be worked on if we are to recover to a better place than we were before the affair.

Dumping the letters - aganst her own comfort or 'feelings' will be an important gesture not only of LOVE and reconciliation towards me but also that she is beginning to be able to put ANOTHERS happiness ahead of her own occasionally.

I will be patient but gently consistent in my requests.I'm not sure what to do if she doesn't bin them in a reasonable time frame. I can see no excuse not to bin them befoire we go on vacation to florida at Christmas to be honest. She will ask me what I want for Christmas soon. I wil tell her I want to destroy those letters with her I think.

We'll see what she says.

Thank again RIF. I KNOW we're doing great by most standards particularly considering how vicously she behaved during the A and withdrawal.
And you and your brothers in arms...be CAREFUL out there br'a.

{{{{rif}}}}

Hey Bob,

Looks like we're the only two people up on this side of the world...

I understand your feelings regarding the letters... thankfully, my W didn't have any letters or trinkets from any of her OM... Heck, we didn't even have e-mail way back in 1987-90!

Not to go into too much detail, but for me, the lack of SF was the big issue for me. In fact, we've just recently, right before I deployed earlier this year, gotten to a point that I can honestly say that our SF is getting close to what I need as far as my EN's go...

My R&R date is coming up soon and I can't wait to get home!!!

Semper Fi,
RIF90