How many of us know about A's going on where the BS doesn't know? What do we do about it? Usually the evidence is not conclusive but highly suspicious. A's are common and succeed primarily because of the atmosphere of secrecy that surrounds them. We don't like to get involved nor do we want to be the whistle blower. Traditionally whistle blowers do not fair well in any area of life.

So what is our obligation to the BS, who may be a friend or colleague and what is the reality of our actions? I'm looking for honestly here rather than ideology.

AN

anyname, are honesty and ideology mutally exclusive? I am not sure I understand what that means unless you are assuming that most don't have the courage of their convictions. Am I misunderstanding your point?

I believe that I have a moral imperative to inform any victim of adultery. I have always lived by that principle and instinctively understood that this was right even before I could support it logically.

That being said, I do believe in absolute care and caution in this area and would not tell someone such a thing unless I was absolutely sure.

I am in a situation right now where I have "heard" a rumor of such an affair that was "supposedly" conducted by the W of one of my friends five years ago. However, I have never been able to substantiate it so I am not going to tell him. If I were sure, I would tell him in a heartbeat, but I think it would be cruel to disrupt his life over a rumor.

<small>[ November 09, 2004, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

My answer is over here

::::The A you mention that is 10 years past is a no-brainer. Nothing would be gained by exposure at this late date.

Thos, Well I'd have the malicious satisfaction of having her understand how I feel. What the hell is wrong with me? Have to confess that when ever she's not shown appropriate sympathy for my pain, the thought crosses my mind that she should know that her situation is the same as mine. Literally. Hs with maids. Sad thing is that her H told my H about his maid (at the time) and that his maid "loved it". Probably the biggest influencing factor in my H axing his boundries. (I learned all this since d-day). At the time I was perplexed about why she had genital warts. Strong catholic girl who would never cheat (I'd stake my life on it). But it's amazing how you don't process information when you can't get your mind around a piece of puzzle that doesn't fit. I think this is what happened to her.

:::I feel sorry for her that she does not know how she was infected. And her H must be a real cad not to tell her.

We talked about it recently. I played dumb. He just told her to go to an STD clinic. (must have discovered them on himself) She had them pretty badly. She's a lawyer and very bright. She talked to me about unfaithfulness (a heart to heart about my situation) and then she raised the subject of her infection. She said "I don't know where I got them, but I don't want to accuse <name> of giving them to me, because I don't know and it is wrong to accuse him when I just don't know". WAs I meant to tell her that genital warts are sexually transmitted?

I figured she didn't want to know and she called upon her Catholic training to be fair and reasonable to her H. I really think she didn't want to know.


:::He is controlling and manipulating her for his own selfish purposes. He is not even treating her as a friend let alone his wife.

They were badly matched. But six incredibly wonderful kids later (now grown) they have found some level of harmony together. But they were not a good match to begin with. I guess I'm trying to say that we can have a rule of thumb but life is much more complicated up close and personal - it think it worked out for the best, her not knowing.

::: It's been 10 years. If he hasn't in all that time maybe he is reformed.

They moved back to the UK seven yrs ago and we only see them every year on holiday here or there. I suspect his contracting the warts must have come as a terrible shock to him. He got it past her, by some fluke, but then had to watch her later undergo treatment for pre-cancer of the cervix. Maybe this sobered him up. Have you seen pictures of genital warts on the net? Sheesh they are horrible! Another annoyance is that my H only learned about the warts after d-day. It might have helped my H to keep to his boundries if he thought his little brown girl might give him something nasty, like happened to his best mate. <sigh>


:::Pretty low. Does happen, but it's rare. About the same incidence as WS suicide.

Yes, I agree, but I was referring to Noodle suggesting Lisa's OMW's life was in danger. I presumed she meant thru aids or cervical cancer. I was suggesting there is risk on either side.


:::Why? If I may pick at this for a minute, you obviously hold a grudge.

I don't think grudge is the appropriate word. But will put the cap on if it fits.

:::But I wonder if it is really solely against your H.

It is specifically about H's betrayal. But may be rooted in infidelity phobia. I was born into a M that was recovering from infidelity. (don't know if this is relevent - but have always been highly intolerant of infidelity)

:::It seems to be against the whole world at times. Perhaps it has roots in your cult upbringing?

Mmmm, I did think I'd suffered enough with the family shutting me out. That's a big enough hit for one life time. It dug very deep. Took me nearly two decades to get over completely. And part of that was the law of deminishing returns. It was so very unreasonable. (haven't seen one brother for 24 yrs - and he and I were best mates - used to sing on TV and radio together)

I think my inability to cope with my H betrayal is way to complex for me to try to explain. Suffice to say that I have examined it from every possible angle dozens of times and am making a little progress. It's impossible to take someone elses road map for an individual journey. You can get advice on the terrain and ETA etc, but it's such an individual thing. It's good to keep talking to each other and throwing ideas around, but at the end of the day we have to make our own journey thru this, with whatever tools we have in the car boot! And then flagging down the odd motorist for a hand, if we really can't manage. I've not had cancelling. I live within feet of the OW and in a foreign country away from my two kids and my beautiful cat - who I chat to on the phone often. My mother was dying during H's A and died after d-day. I spend a lot of time in isolation and do not have extended family support. I was already somewhat neurotic when this happened - the classic worrier. I've done my best to survive it - that's how it's been. Just trying to survive it. You know what. The gastric reflux is a blessing. It makes me think before I get upset. I'm almost grateful for it. Staying calm is way better than tipping the bed btw.

:::But why dwell forever on anything, whether good or bad?

I think it happens naturally - eventually. I think the body/spirit wants to forget and move on. As for H? Well he doesn't think he should forgive himself either - but he isn't a very reflective person (a lot more so now than he used to be). He naturally springs back to upbeat and positive - so I don't expect him to beat himself up about it daily. If he were a depressive type, I would probably be telling him to go easy on himself. Acutally he's a pretty cool guy. You'd like him. Everyone does. (he did a really uncool thing though and now he refers to natural justice a lot)


:::No apology need here. I love it. I probably would have tried it myself if I had thought of it earlier, like when I wanted to arraign a meeting with OMM in a dark alley!

Careful, the doll thing is black magic - hence my warning to Christians. If I thought it would work I'd try it.

::::Start with yourself. If H was having another A, would you want someone, anyone, to tell you?

Got me on that one! Yes I would.

I was in martial limbo for ten years and did not know why. I deserved the truth. After I started suspecting, I knew the truth would hurt but I wanted a better marriage with my beautiful wife. I didn't care what fire and brimstone I had to pass through. And my wife deserves a better marriage too.

I agree with what you say. How can I not? The stupid thing is that I don't think many A's make people happy. I liken it to my ten yrs inside the Watchtower. It's not living. It's a trap that you can't see and don't quite understand what's wrong.

:::And for the record, OMM's wife told me she was relived to find out the truth. I talked to her after she and I received anonymous letters. I already knew so all I did was provide some proof. She said a whole bunch of clues clicked into place and she thanked me for giving her a chance to work on her marriage and not have to continue thinking she was crazy. (OMM still continues lying through his teeth, though.)

You put up a convincing case for telling BSs who are in the dark. Have you directed OMW to Marriage builders per chance?

thanx for the reply

AN

:::are honesty and ideology mutally exclusive?

Hi Mel, I dunno, are they?

:::unless you are assuming that most don't have the courage of their convictions.

Yes, that's what I'm assuming. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Though, I'm sure you realise that it's not as black and white as that.

One of the reasons A's are made possible is because people don't have the courage of their convictions - they are reluctant to get involved or "cause problems" (that's how they see it). That's how I see it. We are raised to think like this. It's part of our social conditioning, and I think that it's not helping to break the cycle of betrayal.

::I believe that I have a moral imperative to inform any victim of adultery. I have always lived by that principle and instinctively understood that this was right even before I could support it logically.

I applaud your intestinal fortitude.

:::That being said, I do believe in absolute care and caution in this area and would not tell someone such a thing unless I was absolutely sure.

How many of us know for sure? My H was told by his friend (the one in the above post to Thos) that this guy had a girl-friend. My heart sank. I think his long time wife is a gem of a woman.

I chatted to the wife after I heard the rumor and the state of her M would suggest that the H is having an A. I directed her to MBs. But didn't mention what I'd heard. Actually since I talked to her, he had a nasty accident. He's been out of circulation for four or five months. But guess he will get back to her once he's well enough. I just can't tell her without more evidence. If I knew for sure I think I might be able to - but I'd find it really, really hard.

And yes, I would have wanted someone to tell me. Which makes me a hypocrite and I hate hypocrites!

AN

Anyname,

I understand what you mean and I know how difficult it is to tell someone the truth. My best girl friend’s H visited strip clubs a few months ago and I only informed my friend about it 2 weeks ago. I didn’t tell immediately because I was hesitant... I was hesitant because my girl friend is a extremely sensitive and emotional person and I was afraid what this info would do to her… Also, I’m aware of the serious sexual problems in their M (on her part) and I was afraid telling would just complicate things. My girl friend’s H is a good person who cares about her and I was SO afraid telling would be the wrong thing to do. I was afraid to interfere in their life like this. However, I’m glad I’ve told her and now my friend and her H is paying serious attention to their problems and my friend will receive professional help for her sexual problems soon. On the end both of them realized that me and my H tell her out of love and care for both of them and their M.

I think any person with a values and morals will feel an obligation to tell the truth, but as you’ve said, things are not always just black and white… Things in other peoples life’s are often much more complicated than we know or aware off…and I think this is why exposing is not easy to do and not a decision that can be taken lightly. Also, I think the most important reason people sometimes hide the truth and don’t tell, is out of fear to get involved and to hurt another person by telling the truth. It’s never easy to see the hurt and pain in someone else’s eyes by exposing the truth, unless you're a heartless and unemotional person without sensitivity. By keeping silent people think they can protect the victim of infidelity (BS) of hurt and pain… Of course this is not really true. I would also wanted someone to tell me if I were in that situation.

Blessings,
Suzet

:::By keeping silent people think they can protect the victim of infidelity (BS) of hurt and pain… Of course this is not really true.

Hi Suzet, Yes this is the intention. It does work sometimes. It's a gamble though. We gamble that without intervention, that the M will right itself. It's easier to gamble with someone else's marraige. It's easier to invent good reasons "not to interfer". I suspect taht if we are very close to a couple and we know of clear cut infidelity, then we will speak up to the WS first and warn them.

Though my H and I had (past tense) friends and he helped my H have his A. ML is of course right on this, but I would like to suggest that if we cannot expose an infidelity we can at least follow the creed of "above all, do no harm".

I hope your GF uses this opportunity to build a happy and long lasting M.

AN

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by anyname:
<strong> :::are honesty and ideology mutally exclusive?

Hi Mel, I dunno, are they?

:::unless you are assuming that most don't have the courage of their convictions.

Yes, that's what I'm assuming. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Though, I'm sure you realise that it's not as black and white as that.

One of the reasons A's are made possible is because people don't have the courage of their convictions - they are reluctant to get involved or "cause problems" (that's how they see it). That's how I see it. We are raised to think like this. It's part of our social conditioning, and I think that it's not helping to break the cycle of betrayal.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that right and wrong are very black and white, what is gray sometimes is people and situations. And of course, things are always made more "gray" when I don't "want" to do something. Usually when I am confused about something it is because I don't "want" to do it and am entertaining rationalizations.

I do agree very much with your comment that the reasons affairs are so rampant is because we live in a society of moral cowards who have queer views about exposing adultery. I wonder who invented those strange little rationalizations about adultery exposure? An adulterer, no doubt.

<small>[ November 10, 2004, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I've been thinking about this very thing for 6-7 weeks, as that is how I found out about my W's affair.
An annonomous call in the middle of the day " You should watch your wife carefully. She isn't at work just for the job."
At that point I went straight to rejection of the information since my W of 28 yrs would NEVER do that! I'm convinced had I not gotten that call that the A would have gone on for a long time before I, if ever, found out. As it was the physical side of it was only 3 wks old so in her mind the A was only 3 weeks old. Of course, I see it as having been going on for 3-5 months because that's when the emotional connection was forged. The longer the A goes on, the harder it is to understand, the more it minimizes the Betrayed S. and ultimately the harder it is to forgive.
Am I glad I was called...yes.
Did I immediately confront...no...I started putting pieces of the puzzle together until I was convinced. (found her car at OM's house when she said she was working late( bet no one here has heard that one before))
Would I let a friend know if I had information ... yes. If it was only a suspicion I would have to look at that a lot longer. Just think of the damage you could inflict on a relationship that may only have minor problems...you could drive a wedge between the couple.

Interesting thread AN

bbrriiaann