Well, I do believe that Sophia is out of the picture, but exposure of the affair was just a wake-up call to a pattern of disregard and contempt that went back to our wedding night.

Three weeks ago, Harley recommended separation because the infidelity may be over but the abuse is continuing.

I was waiting to find out what he might do in therapy, and he told me at noon that there are no miracles and that his therapist wants us to meet with my therapist to deal with "my problem." I had to get off the phone.

My problem...yes, I have a problem, I chose an unconditional commitment to marriage over self-respect and safety.

Well, I can make another choice.

Especially for stay-at-home Moms with young children, do you have practical advice on how to set up a Plan B separation? The lawyer told me not to file for legal separation unless I intend it to be permanent, and I would hope it would be temporary, for perhaps a year, while Tom goes through therapy to learn how to show respect.

Cherished

bump

bump

WOW cherished....

you sound STRONG STRONG STRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

so whats the basic plan..
is he leaving
or are you and the kids??

ARK

The basic plan is, as he put it, "Boot me out."

Everyone told me that you don't go into Plan B unless you are ready and you are ready when you know you are so close to getting past the point of caring if he does return that you need to protect yourself from no longer caring.

He now says he is willing to follow Harley's program, and he has kept his word for 2 days. Nevertheless, I told him that I am not going through another round of the descent into neglect. If there is an interruption in following the program, that interruption will be for one year with no face to face contact.

That's all I've figured out so far. Any help will be appreciated -- I want to be prepared for the probability that I will be separating. As I told my H last night, I'd have a year of hope and that is better than having what is left of my desire to be killed off by continued thoughtless behavior. When I told him this, he asked why he should put in the effort without knowing it will result in happiness for him, and I said he'd never know unless he put in the effort.

I remember reading that you don't go into Plan B unless you are ready, and I am ready emotionally. Now it is a matter of thinking through practical details, and I have some time because right now he has decided to follow Harley's program.

So -- please do let me know what you recommend, especially stay at home mothers who have done this. There are a lot of practical issues here!

Cherished

<small>[ November 13, 2004, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

cherished...

so are you and the kids going..is that the plan..
to where...

the only way to figure out the logistics is to know what the basics are...

ark

He would go for one year. That is the minimum. My care for him is now so precarious that I was thinking this morning that we could go into a separation if he just got sick. I don't want to fall into indifference. There's a lot to consider -- separate bank accounts? child pick-up when his car doesn't seat all four? could he come into the home?

Cherished

Plan B and seperating are two different things...


why would you say he would go for a year...
that gives you and him no real motivation for anything....

plan b is seperating from all the chaos..

where would he go....alone or with family...

I was thinking this morning that we could go into a separation if he just got sick.

I'm not following you on thato one..what does that mean...

ark

My desire to work on our relationship is so precarious that I may not be able to handle his getting sick and being unable to meet my need to simply be touched and caressed. What I told him is that I need a minimum of 15 minutes of caressing each morning and night to be able to stay in our marriage.

As for the time period, I have a similar situation to MT3B's in that there is a commitment and then there is a lack of commitment. What has happened to me is that I am feeling wretched from hope to despair and he has told me he feels "jerked around." There needs to be a consistent commitment going forward.

A friend of mine is in the process of divorce after her husband left, closed the bank accounts, didn't see their 3 young kids for a month, has been battling disclosing the state of their finances, etc. She told me that it doesn't matter if he crawls on his hands and knees to her on broken glass -- she is never reconciling -- the marriage is done. I feel like I am very close to feeling like that, and so to protect my willingness, I am considering saying I need a long-term separation. My H just started therapy four weeks ago, so there is hope, but I can't hang on any longer with him around and not being caring.

Cherished

My desire to work on our relationship is so precarious that I may not be able to handle his getting sick and being unable to meet my need to simply be touched and caressed.

Cherished,

ark is trying her best to help you but you are talking abit in riddles. Is "getting sick" another phrase for having breakdown..as in mental breakdown? I also do not understand why you keep using that phrase.

In regards to PlanB ....it doesn't make arrangements for you to receive any type of support. Plan B is not anything other than a Harley Phrase. It isn't a legally binding agreement in regards to any type of support.

If you plan on this lasting a year (again, the time thing confuses me) you will need to seek legal aid ...whether you need a separation (if your state allows for that) or need to file something with the State Atty's office for child support. You might also find yourself needing to seek employment outside your home. You will need to support the children in case he will not...and cannot.

JMHO
committed

Cherished,

I'm not really sure how to advise you.....I do not have children, so our situations in that regard are markedly different. However, aside from the fact that I was the WS first in our M, our situations are very similar.

Before my A, my H was controlling, degrading, and always blamed me - he managed to make me think that my feelings, thoughts, and general existence was wrong. My flaw was that I allowed him. I set no boundaries, was so codependent that I was too afraid to leave, and acutally "got something" out of being the victim. It was the only thing I felt I had on him - that I treated him well, and would not sink to his level. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Blind, I was.

Then I had my A - it was 4 mo EA/PA, and it woke me up. For me to have sunk to that level must have meant that I had reached my end. In fact, I remember the very day that I emotionally gave up on the M. I remember the exact moment. Truthfully, it is a horrific memory. Shortly after that, I began the A. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I confessed my A to my H (after ending it), and Plan A'd him like you know what. The problem? I still had set no boundaries. So for a year, he still derrogated me, despised me, blamed me, etc. He called me names, told me I was worthless, and basically saw me as no more than a prostitute who didn't even get paid (his words many a time).

Like you, I finally reached a point at which I knew I had to enforce my own limits. I remember that moment in time, as well. It was when he said to me "I can trust and respect EAOW, and I can't do the same for you. I will not stop being her friend." At that point, we had a long discussion, and I told him that I would not stay in an M where he was more loyal to a friendship with another woman, than he was to a relationship with his own W. That night, I left.

I see so many parallels in our situation. I suppose it's similar to how alike most A stories are. Abuse is no different. The only advice I have to give is to do what you feel you need to do. You know that I have noticed your growth. I feel your strength now. And I feel that you are almost to your limit.....one more strike, and he's out.

Do what you need to. Plan for what you need to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> My H and I are in a combination plan B and D. I did not do plan B during the separation - I felt too guilty still about my own A. But when I discovered the true extent of my H's EA (by discovering e-mails), confronted him, and he felt absolutely no remorse - only justification. I went into plan B. He e-mailed me saying he wanted a D ASAP. So I filed. I gave him what he wanted, and I started my plan B.

We no longer talk unless it's business. We had to go through discussions of bank accounts, the apartment, furniture, the money market, getting names off cars, etc. It made plan B difficult b/c we were talking so much about all of it. Now that everything is settled, we rarely speak. There is not much animosity (and in fact, he sometimes will say in an e-mail "I miss you"), but his behavior itself has not changed, and plan B has allowed me to focus on the actions.

I will warn you it is not easy. It is not easy at all. Separation, possible D, moving on with your own life is not easy. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> But if it is what you need, I have no doubt you have the strength and the self worth to do it. You have grown immensely, and you are strong for yourself now. If you feel that separation/plan B is the way (and if S Harvey agrees), then I know you will be strong enough to do it. And you will find happiness - in whatever road you choose.

I'm sorry I could not be of more help. I wish you the best. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

L.I.T. --
You have been of help. I do need to protect my very precarious willingness to work on our M. This morning, he woke up with a headache. He did look pasty. He decided not to go to church. It is 2 PM, and he is sleeping. I think I am responsible for preserving my desire to work on our M.

Also, I don't think it is a coincidence that he is ill. Since Wednesday, he has been physically affectionate in the morning and at night. I don't know that he can continue meeting my needs.

It may not be easy to move on, to face reality, but my life for the past 11 1/2 years has been awful to barely tolerable. My 10 year old D has had straight As and this term she had 2 C+s. I don't know that it is good for our children, especially our three daughters, to witness day in and day out disregard to contempt. I have reached my limit, and so now he is sick.

Cherished

Hi Cherished,

When you said this:
"My care for him is now so precarious that I was thinking this morning that we could go into a separation if he just got sick."

I wondered if what you were saying was that if he got sick (like with a long illness or a lifethreatening illness) that at this point you don't think you have it in you to be able to provide for him while he wasn't also providing for you (even with a "valid" reason like illness).

In your last post, you said:
"Also, I don't think it is a coincidence that he is ill. Since Wednesday, he has been physically affectionate in the morning and at night. I don't know that he can continue meeting my needs."

Now I am wondering 1) if you think that the act of physical affection made him physically sick, 2) if you think that he's just playing sick to have a "valid" reason to withhold physical affection, or 3) if you feel like you are the cause of his illness.

Whether he is sick with the flu or is feeling physically sick due to HIS OWN issues, you can still respectfully request that your need for physical affection be met while he is sick. (Btw, I had the flu so if it were me in your shoes I would respectfully request hand holding and caressing over clothes--and I would immediately wash my hands afterward and put my clothes in the washing machine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Also, others have asked you why you say that your Plan B must be for one year minimum. I wonder if you are saying at least one year because that is how long you think it will take you to see and trust any changes. I agree with the poster who said that setting a definite time minimum for Plan B gives neither of you motivation to do anything in a timely manner.

Cherished, remember that it is not just FWSs who have choices in when and how Plan B will end (by FWS actions), the FBSs also have a choice in when and how Plan B will end (by either rebuilding with the FWS or divorce).

Just like your FWH cannot guarantee you that Plan B will lead to marriage rebuilding, you cannot guarantee that to him either (nor should you, in my opinion). You will make that decision when it's time for you to make that decison.

Ark said:
"WOW cherished....

you sound STRONG STRONG STRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Ditto!! And I'm thrilled for you!

Take care

He felt ill this morning. Not life-threatening. Not long-term. Just not feeling well. For years, I have heard, "I have a headache," "I'm tired," and "I need my downtime." I accepted that my needs would not be met unless I was "demanding", and I didn't want to be "demanding" or "controlling."

Now I am at a point where I don't think I can manage to stay with him if he is unable to meet my needs going forward. I would say that the Love Bank is precariously close to bankrupt.

We've been trying to do the MB program since February and he has excuse after excuse after excuse for why he can't spend 15 hours with me this week. Way early, before we got into the program, I had several conversations with Dr. Harley and he said that Tom is indicating that I'm not worth the effort. That, I think, is the reality. My therapist has said he'll do the minimum to appease me.

I think I may be able to rely on his therapist to let us know when we can start being together again, but all I know now is that there needs to be some time away from him to regroup if he is unable to meet my needs consistently at least until the Love Bank is above bankrupt.

I think his therapist may hold the key here, but he just started seeing the guy a few weeks ago, and I can't wait for Tom to work on deciding what he wants to do. I'm too close to closing the door on 11 1/2 almost completely miserable contact with a man who has shown me contempt, disregard, and violence. I made my mistakes, and I have made changes to try to accomodate him, but no one deserves an affair or a broken arm, and now all I am getting is delay ...

Cherished

<small>[ November 14, 2004, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

At 4 AM, Tom came out to see what I was doing, and I went to bed. I understood, finally, what Plan B is about, and I said to him, "I still care about you, and to preserve that care, I am willing to separate until you are ready to show care for me."
Cherished

I understood, finally, what Plan B is about, and I said to him, "I still care about you, and to preserve that care, I am willing to separate until you are ready to show care for me."

???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ???????


You have me sooo confused...

ready to show care for me....????

I am willing to seperate....

what does that mean???????????????

what does that mean.....????

ark

Ark --
What it means is that I am still willing to work on our marriage, and I still have care for him, which means I want him to be happy. What it also means is that I will not have anything but a feeling of indifference towards him if he continues to treat me the way he has. I can't control him, so the only option I have is to remove myself from his presence until and unless he is willing to show care for me -- which means, practically speaking, spending time with me, learning to meet my needs, treating me well, and negotiating to win-win solutions.

JanetS wrote this to MT3B on page 15 of the thread "Actions Speak Louder than Words": "My stbx has done everything he can possibly do to come home. I won't talk to him. He has to go through attorney's. He's miserable. Now he knows how wonderful his life was and he threw it away because of HIS actions. He's facing the holidays with no family and no home. He's living in our lake property that isolated and an hour away. I don't care. I'm happy. That divorce he filed has sat idle for over 3 months...he did it to scare me but it thrilled me instead.

My point is Mom as someone once told me long ago, you can't rake leaves in the desert. If it's not there, it's not there. You'll be fine. Go live your life and as I told FIM..live it to its fullest! "

I am SO CLOSE to feeling that way that I am letting him know he needs to meet my needs NOW.

Cherished

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>