so, i've received the separation papers, several months after her left the house to be w/ OW. he already wants to "talk" about them. he asked to do that this weekend, but i was busy so told him i couldn't. he seemed a bit frustrated, as if he didn't believe that i was actually busy. yet, he knows by now that i don't just sit around the house every night. as it turns out, they were away for the weekend, so i'm not sure why he proposed the weekend to talk. i also wrote him a letter before reading the agreement, stating that i wanted to work on our marriage, and that i thought it could be even better than before, b/c i knew more now about what it took than i did before, but affair would have to end (he still denies affair). he left me a message and an email that day, saying thanks, he got the letter and appreciated my attempt at explaining my feelings and what i wanted. (seemed a strange thing to say) wanted to talk that day, but i was out of the office and didn't get the messages until later that evening. when i called him back and asked him what he wanted to talk about, he just said the agreement. i did not hear from him again. and tonight, on my way out to the recycling center, i passed the house and there was his truck in OW garage and WS was in OW house. i seem to have this (im)perfect sense of timing, such that i see him there every week. i thought i was getting better, but the pain hit me afresh tonight when i saw his truck. how can someone, even someone who says they don't love you anymore, do this to a person they were with for so long? and if they are traveling together all the time, and i only see him once every other week, how does the bubble burst? they never seem to have to deal w/ everyday living. everyone says the affairs will not last, but this one seems to be the soulmate kind, and i'm struggling with how to hang on and do plan a. i know that so many people here have done this for much longer than i, so how do you do it? my love is still there, but it is eroding daily, b/c there is nothing good coming from him. please help.

thank you

First I want to say, I feel your pain and I'm sorry your going through this. My WW is just now ending her affair and were I'm trying to get her to work with me on plan A...What ever you do , be positive and non-judgmental and stay focused...Everyone here has been through it or going through it..Please don't give up and smile it really does help.

Michael~~

thank you, mschulter. i appreciate the fact that everyone here is going or has gone through this. and i've only been in plan a for 1 month (WS left 4mos. ago, but don't know how long affair has gone on), so i know it's too early to be giving up. but, having to see him there all the time is killing me. and i swear that he stood in the house when i went by tonight and just stared out the window at me, as impassively as if it shouldn't matter to me at all. i read all the talk about the fog talk, but honestly, how can you trust someone who doesn't see what he is doing as wrong? and for him to likely continue to blame me? it's ludicrous! why can't he just get an apt? she has a child, but so what, take it to the apt. i'm sure she just doesn't want to be bothered, as she is comfortable in the house, and she certainly doesn't care about my feelings, and neither does he. everyone says, she'll get hers, but from what i've seen, this is her 4th affair and she doesn't seem to be hurting. sorry, i'm venting, but i'm really finding it hard to continue to be trampled upon. is there anything that has helped anyone get through this? my faith is the only thing that is keeping me going. any other advice?

thanks again

I am just curious if this is part of the Plan A bit or not but why didn't you go into that house when you saw his truck there? I guess I would have. I would have saw his truck and gone in. Hey I saw your truck and decided to stop by cause I missed you kind of thing. Hey thanks for letting me drop by kind of thing, I was just passing by and saw my husbands truck and wanted to visit with him since I haven't seen him in awhile. Heck bring the kids over there too if you have them and ask them to watch them while you go out shopping on your own or with a few friends. That will ruin the romance between them quick.
Gosh I am terrible.

so, were supposed to talk about agreement tonight, but WS called and said was sick, so wanted to reschedule for later this week. we are supposed to talk about my letter (telling him i didn't want DV, wanted to reconcile, could meet his needs but affair had to end, etc.) on saturday morning at breakfast. told him i was surprised that he wanted to talk about it. he said he knew i spent a lot of time on it, so of course wanted to talk to me about it. he thanked me for sending it and for my attempt to explain my feelings and wants. but, he didn't want to mislead me - his position had not changed. but, he still wanted to talk to me about it. so, i have two very different conversations coming up in the next few days, and am confused as to why he wants both to happen. i guess just to tell me yet again it's over, he's not in love w/ me, the affair was not the cause of our marriage breakdown, etc., and to gauge my reaction about the agreement he has put down. yet the agreement was not even close to complete - for a man who is in such a hurry to get the agreement signed, this is going to make things take even longer. any ideas on how to handle either/both of discussions?

i'm sorry to keep asking, but i need some feedback on what to do about the two very different conversations. we rescheduled separation agreement discussion to sunday afternoon (he wanted to bundle this w/ the talk about the letter, but I said no - these were 2 entirely different subjects). WS wasn't happy about my proposing sunday afternoon and saturday morning, but said fine. i feel like these are pivotal points in my plan a, but feel lost as to what to expect, do, etc. if anyone has any feedback from similar situations, i would so very much appreciate it, even if it is to just keep doing plan a. it's just that plan a and a separation agreement don't seem to fit together anywhere.

thanks again!

sorry to bump my own post, but i would really like to hear advice, points to remember, anything, on how to best get through the weekend's 2 very different conversations. please, if anyone is out there, i would really appreciate it. the first conversation is in the morning. we've been apart now for just over 4 mos., but i have no idea how long the A has truly been going on. i see no signs of it waning.

thank you!

changed icon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You wouldn't believe what I went through tonight to register and login...just to answer your post, nc...and now it's so late, I'm afraid I'll be of no help!

You have your first big discussion in the morning and I know how hard that will be for you, but you have to live up to your letter. What made me finally jump on here was how very much you seem to go through the Giver and Taker perspective, back and forth, just like me. I've been doing Plan A for about a month, too, and reading everyone's posts here really keeps me strong. But each day I can see my heart go one way and my ego the other, over and over again. Luckily, I've been able to keep my Giver, through concentration, in the forefront of my mind when I'm with my husband.

So, keep your Giver present when you talk with him at breakfast--you will feel trampled, but you can tell your Taker that you are feeling your way through to truth, sanity and the love that is in your heart. I have had three of the LB's to a terrible degree in my marriage...disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts and selfish demands. I've stemmed them by letting my WH's words come into me as if into a hopper, to be sorted and circulated slowly, instead of straight to my heart. Maybe this could help you? I hope so. There's a lot of hurt inside of you and not much hope, it seems.

I hope you can stall the separation agreement as you believe you have a way that will make it take the longest time. Do that. Ease your fear of time going too fast and it being over by doing what it takes to slow it down, carefully, and without any LB's. I was able to tell WH that since I didn't want a divorce, it would probably take a year, and then asked if OW was willing to wait that long? He said, "Probably not." He hasn't filed. I'm holding onto that.

As for not wanting to confront him at OW's house, that is where your fears need to stop. He can't see reality right now, or what the right thing to do is, but you can. You can't make him see it, either. But taking reasonable, courteous steps, like stopping and saying hello when he's there, is really the best. As long as you keep taking deep breaths, smile, and put on your best face, with no LB's.

I found that piecing together what has happened, for how long, etc., is very good for keeping your own mind straight. I am now a student of my spouse, and have timelined, traced, documented, and really examined how all this happened in one year, out of seventeen. I take notes and spend my waivering, fearful times concentrating on something as simple as dates, getting them in order and finding correlations. Seems to act like ballast to my insides and settles me down. I was getting lost in all his fogbabble before, and I really made him mad at me by asking, "When? When did you let me go?" because I couldn't understand and all the days and weeks prior ran together. Maybe this will help a little?

My heart and prayers are with you, and I want you to keep your perspective solid when you have your conversation--don't slip back and forth. It sounds to me like you really struck a chord in him--don't rehearse the conversation ahead of time, guessing he's upset or wants to defend himself. Be open to every word he says and listen intensely, because he may not have been staring out the window dispassionately. He might have been wondering at that very moment why you were in a car driving away and he was in a strange house, with the notion, "What's happening? How did I get here?" WS have those moments, briefly, before the guilt and the shame push them back into their Taker mode, and they relist all the reasons they should be exactly where they are.

I regain my Giver by reminding myself, forcefully, that I caused this man equal pain (with LB's and other stuff) and I can wait for all his anger and resentment (which is what makes the fog in fogbabble) to be released so that he, too, can get back to the love that's there. Maybe you can make love unit deposits with your poise, active listening, and thoroughly respect yourself in the process. You are loving your WH. You're not being run over. I promise. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

hello lovinganyway,

i'm sorry that you had trouble logging in last night, but so grateful that you did. your words were right on the mark. i didn't realize that i had been vacillated so much between the giver/taker mode, but you're right. since the agreement came, i've been more emotional than in the few weeks before it, when i felt i was beginning to feel a bit better. the agreement brought everything to the forefront again and it made me angry. but, you're right - i've got to stay true to my letter, even if he doesn't care/seem to care. at this point, i can't expect him to care, b/c that would screw up his "perfect" life. as for the agreement, i'm still unsure how to best handle that, but will do the best i can. i've become much better at not LBing when around him, at least i think i have. as for the agreement, perhaps i need to compartmentalize the situation a bit? look at it more like a business transaction, rather than my survival, the end of the M, etc.? if i can be less emotional about it, that should help.

i do have a BIG question. you are the second person to tell me to go into the house and just nonchalantly say hello. what in the world do you say after that? it's obvious you are not just there to say hello. i suspect OW would throw me out, w/ WH supporting her. i did go there once at the beginning of the separation (during the day, b/c i had to have the truck to take our sick dog to the vet). i was frantic for the dog, and so didn't care about going, plus this was before i truly realized they were having an affair. Her H was still living there and they all worked together, so spent lots of time in their house, our house, at the office, et. WS shuffled me outside right away, asking what was wrong, etc. how do you do it?

i'm very sorry that you have had to go through all of this mess. it is unbelievable how similar the stories are, and it makes you think they need to teach a class in school on this stuff every year, in the hopes that some of it might sink in and prevent all of this waste. thank you again for your insight and your willingness to help. i hope that your situation gets better every day, and that you can have a strong reconciliation, and much better relationship. i know you can do it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you so much for your support and wishes. I hope you're having a good breakfast/discussion even as I type this.

As for how to approach the house...well, what I'm relating it to is going to my WH's work one night. He'd been having a really tough day and I got flowers from the market, had my son make a hand-drawn card (artistic type) and we took them to WH's work. Halfway there, I panicked, realizing OW might be there. Son agreed to scope out the joint before we went in. She wasn't, but the trepidation that seized me might feel akin to you going to the house. It was really hard, standing for in the restaurant that WH manages for about an hour, with flowers and smiles, wondering if all the coworkers knew and felt sorry for me. I did it anyway, as a true act of support, and I don't regret it.

Maybe you can think of it as just that--go to the house when they're home, and say, "Hi! How are you? Can I come in?" And once you're in, say that you'd really like to understand the situation better, and sit down in the living room, and wait for an answer. Smile a lot and maybe bring muffins? Like a belated house warming gift? Just a thought. Something you make that seems natural to give to anyone else, maybe?

You've already thought this through with them throwing you out--that's what I call rehearsing the future. We talk ourselves out of doing/saying things by convincing ourselves we know the outcome, when reality depends on the fact that we don't. You haven't mentioned children, so I won't say bring them (they were very supportive to wanting to bring their dad home, and we made it a family gesture, not just their mom being nuts one). You do have a dog, so if it comforts you and you think they wouldn't mind the dog in the house, bring him/her. You're bringing the M with you when you enter, or appear, juxtapositioning it into his current reality, altering it. Even if nothing is said, and you don't have to force anything, that image remains for him to ponder.

I would love to know how this morning went...you can also email me, if you'd like, at mypetkelly@yahoo.com. I really hope really give yourself credit for your good actions and not make it depend on outcome. You sounded much better this morning, which is a good sign.

You say they all work together--is this relationship allowed at work? Would talking to OW's spouse (who moved out) help you at all? I keep fantasizing that our OWH could be convinced to Plan A her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know. I'm silly, but it's a way to keep me from my Taker anger at the times I need to avoid that. Not showing my tears is a difficult thing--but after nearly three months, they sure don't come as often.

Wanted to ask about how you stay busy--besides all the recycling, that is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And does he have parents/siblings you both are close to, and do they know?

NC,

From my experience, DO NOT go to the OW's house, DO NOT talk to her. She is not for you, does not care about you and will undermine you and trick you. There is no reasoning here. You cannot reason with your husband either. This is something you have to put in God's hands and pray for God to do and work. Only God can work on your husband. Step back. Leave him alone. Any attempt will push him away. Let him separate.

It would take me a loooong post to tell you what the OW did to me and my ex-husband who is now sitting in jail because of her. I should have heeded the advice to NEVER talk to the OW when I was told. She managed to wreck havoc on my life, my ex and our family and managed to trick me into divorcing my husband by lies and deceit. She even used one of my daughters in her deceit.

The OW is the tool of the devil. If you want to talk to the OW, well your talking to the devil then. So make your choice.

Read Proverbs 5 and 6 and get some comfort there.

check out http://www.restorem.org

I posted this on another topic you started.

Your husband will have to see changes in you before he will ever turn his heart back to you. It takes TWO to make a marriage fail and start focusing on what you have done in the marriage to cause Love Busters, that are discussed in this website.

Your husband is not excused from his affair by no means. But we women can be nagging, witchy, demanding, controlling and manipulative and we need to face that about ourselves. Husband's hate this in wives!

And only God can restore a marriage to where the restoration lasts, heals, and transforms.

I hope you check out the website link I have included in this post.

I hope you feel that I am not being mean to you or hard on you. I've been where you are.

Don't give up, just get on your knees and trust God.

Love in Jesus,
Leah

Hi LovingAnyway and LivingnJesus,

Thanks so much for your responses. I think this morning went as well as could be expected. I didn't LB, as far as I could tell, and we had a seemingly genuine conversation. The first thing of substance he said, after pleasantries and eating, was "you do know that my involvement w/ OW is a symptom, and not a cause of the breakdown of our marriage?" I said that what I knew was that our marriage was in such a state that there was an opening. He reiterated his statement above, and I replied the same thing that I had said before. (both statements were made in conversational tone, not guilting or angry tone) i told him i appreciated his honesty, because to see him in the house w/ her and then to have him lie to me about it made it hurt even worse. he said he understood. he did say that he was not spending thanksgiving w/ her b/c she was going to her sister's, and it was a complicated story. they were just not ready to do the family thing at holidays yet. however, i have a feeling that her family has not been as accepting of him as his family has been of her. either way, i told him if my thanksgiving dinner was edible i would call him. "so i can sample your wares?" yes, so you can sample my wares. he said he would like that. he also told me to tell my family that he really missed them. i said you could tell them yourself, and he said that he didn't think that they would like that right now. i said, you never know, but i will tell them for you. anyway, there were several other comments that i would like to go into, but i have to go out. in the end, this afternoon, i came up our street just in time to see her garage door closing on WH's truck. so, he was there.

will post again soon.

thanks!

a few last comments from our discussion. i thought we were meeting at the restaurant for breakfast - he thought he was picking me up, so he went to our house and called me when he didn't find me there. he later said that when he walked in and i wasn't there, he wondered if i had come home the night before. i laughed and said, so you ran upstairs to see if there was lingerie on the bed, huh? he said no, he didn't go upstairs at all. when i told him that i saw a couple of people that i knew at the restaurant before he got there, he asked who? i said just a couple of friends. he said, a guy? i said yes, one guy and one girl. well, who was it? just a friend, i said. and finally, he asked me what my schedule was like on sunday. i told him i had church, maybe lunch after church and then i had a date in the afternoon (meaning the meeting w/ him). he said, a date, with a guy? yes, i said. who? then, i put my hand over his, laughed and said, with you, of course! he then laughed and said, don't you like how i acted like i didn't know who it was? i laughed. he told me that OW's H is dating again, fairly seriously, so was that why he kept asking about whether is a man in my life? or is he just trying to have something to use against me legally, since he is having an affair? or is he just trying to rationalize his behavior again?

another thing that happened was he said, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm proud of you (for the changes that i have made). at the time, i said nothing, as i wasn't sure how he meant that. and i'm still not sure. i told him that i hoped i could be proud of him and that he was taking care of the issues that he had as well. he said, oh i am.

so, that was the jist of the conversation. other small talk, but nothing in particular, except that he was wearing a bracelet OW got him for his birthday and he told me he got it from her. i said, i assumed that, b/c it doesn't look like anything your mother or sister would get you. does anyone have any idea what is really going through his head? i know no one can say for sure, but do these types of comments remind anyone of the same patterns that they have heard, and what they meant to them? it didn't seem like anything had changed for them, so i'm sure they are still as close as ever.

thanks everyone!

today has been a tough day. i've learned that WH and OW are apparently planning a big trip to the Caribbean or someplace like that soon. left travel books in bedroom of her house, and WH left travel newsletter in my house, after it came in mail. he left it on purpose. WHY?? they are also planning to go to NY for a long weekend, and most likely to allow WH to introduce OW to rest of family. and i've seen WH going into her house twice in the last 2 days. this happens so often and he still tells me he is living w/ his mother. re: my previous posts, can someone help me w/ what he is trying to do? why does he say those things?

thank you so much

NC I can feel your pain! I am so sorry you have to go through this too. There is so much I wish I could say to you. I will pray for you and I hope you will just pray and really seek God to help you in this pain.

Have you tried that website link I gave you. There is so much encouragment there about restoration, etc. And if you get that book "How God can and will restore your marriage" will really help and ecourage you and give you hope. Also they have encouragement vidoe series where she really gives great advice about all of this too.

There is also another forum about confronting the OP that was started by MelodyJane that is good.

Also read Provebs 5 and 6 and see what the end result will be for this affair. Cling to God..read Psalms 34 on how He is near the brokenhearted too!!

I will be praying for you!!