I read posts by Thos and Just Learning that alluded that a BS poster may be entereing the "anger stage"of recovery.

Now I do recall the stage cycle in Torn Asunder but that had no timeline associated with it.

Mebbe I'c scanned too many MC books and read too few but can anyone point me at a thread here that describes these phases and the associated timescales ?

Thanks !

Morning Bob!

I don't remember the exact time-line for the anger stage, but for me it went something like this...

Final D-Day Dec 00, learned of other A's during first three years of M... Started MC Mar 01-Sep 01. (My W was diagnosed with Bi-Polar disorder and required IC and meds so we didn't start MC until she was stabilized on her meds). Deployed to Kosovo for 7 months and had to put everything on hold...

When I came back, we started MC again... two to three months after resuming MC, my anger really peaked. Up until that point, I was trying to do everything I could to work on rebuilding our M... I guess I got to a point where it felt like I was doing everything and my W was just telling me to 'get over it'...

So if you take out the deployment... my anger really 'peaked' around the 10th or 12th month of our rebuilding process... Our MC said that this was completely 'normal' and that we both had to learn how to deal with it. We did learn... but it was very painful...

I don't remember the thread you're looking for... but wanted to share my own personal 'timeline' with you...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

What were your emotional feelings and responses starting with D-Day?

RIF thats VERY interesting.....

Hmmm

I ask the Q because...TBH...I am a little disturbed by my calmness and patience.

This week I've been having GREAT nights sleeps, no bad dreams or wakefulness. Even when I examine my feelings carefully I really do Love Squid and shes doing ever so well in a short time.

When I read other posts here I wonder if...well..I shouldn't be angrier, be giving Squid a harder time. ( no 2x4s read on ! )

I wonder if I'm not supressing something..

I can't even say I'm avoiding conflict cos I'm absolutely not, I'm just opening Squid up using consistent gentle pressure, not demands.

I am just trying to find out how long I can expect this relatively "pleasant" stage of recovery to last before the next horrible one crops up.

Thanks again RIF, very insightful.

Hey Bob,

It's been a while since I've read Torn Asunder... but one of his statements in the book is that the WS MUST see the BS's anger (at some point)...

I think this is where I personally felt that Torn Asunder was better for ME as a BS... SAA never really discussed the anger that I felt.

Part of Carder's reasoning is that unless the WS sees the BS's anger, they won't really know how much they've hurt their spouse... Now before anyone goes and blasts me for saying that BS should automatically show their WS their anger... Carder does state that the BS needs to show their anger in a productive, non-physical, safe, way...

I suspect that as Squid de-fogs more, and you two start working through the issues of 'why' she had the A... that your anger will probably surface... My best advice is to let your anger surface, deal with it, and try to do so in a godly, safe manner...

You're doing great! Keep it up and provide a safe place for Squid to 'decompress'... you guys will make it through all of this!

Semper Fi,
RIF90

RIF
I think you are right. We have discussed the 'whys' piecemeal, rather than as a discussion but there was a lot of fog in there. There was enough for me to start working on ENs but not enough for us both to have an agreement on the dynamics of our own situation so we can avoid it in future.

Now she says " It just happened, I never meant it to". because she has not studied affairs like WE have she thinks she met someone, fell in love with them, but it was a love that could never be.

In short : a love story, not a needs-compensating affair.

THAT makes me a little angry but shes two months into NC, I have to be patient. Shes growing visibly almost every day and we'll see what her opnion is after a few months of recovery.

My persistence wit hpatience is paying off. I am journalling her responses to my Qs and they are becoming quite substantive now. I hope to discuss them with her soon.

I WILL get angry I'm sure. Maybe I should just rejoice in the peace I am experiencing now.

Thansk again.

WOOHOO!! PARTY!!!!

Bob, you are post 2800!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Aren't you special?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

So after the partying dies down, let me share with you my BS stages and timelines.

Paralyzed Stage--this is that first stage when you just found out. Sick-dead-can't eat or sleep-crying all the time-surviving on soup. In this stage you can't really function, you just try to survive. This stage lasted maybe between a week and a month for me. I cried for 72 hours straight, then was the walking dead for a while after that.

Down to Business Stage--this is the stage in which you still feel dead inside but some part of your brain realizes you have to still buy groceries, you still have kids you have to take care of, and you have bills to pay. During this stage you can still feel pretty dead/numb inside, but you at least get down to action and start "taking care of business." In fact, in a way you ignore other areas in your life so you can "take care of business." This stage lasted probably 4 months for me, because when my exH left, I had no job, no money, kids to feed, a mortgage, and BILLS that he left. I had a lot of "business" to get situated!

Learning Stage--this is the stage in which business is sort of in order and you start to read up on everything about affairs that you can lay your hands on...you read books, go online, find websites, go to support groups...! You start to find vocabulary for what went wrong and how this happened and even learn a little about maturity and relationships and intimacy. You just absorb it all in like a sponge. This stage lasted intensely for probably 6 months and is kind of ongoing in the background even today.

Working on Something Stage--I love this stage and so does Dr. Phil. This is the stage in which you start working on yourself, going to counseling, writing in workbooks, hanging out at the bookstore "Self-Help" aisle, and generally acting like you are "working on something" but the deep inner changes in you as a person are actually pretty slow. This stage is what I would say is "fake Plan A" before people realize what real Plan A is--before people really do the hard work that is necessary to face their own demons, admit their own issues, and work on themself. This is a bit of a self-help obsession. For me, this stage lasted a while, and is still ongoing a little!

Beginning Recovery Stage--okay, despite yourself you are starting to "get it." You are seeing your side of the contributions to the demise of the marriage and at this stage often the WS either "tries" to come home or "wants" to come home, so both parties think that recovery is starting. In real life, WSs are checking to see if the changes are real or superficial; and BSs are just glad to be treated a little bit nicely. This stage can be a little bit "honeymooney" sometimes -or- it can feel very distant and cold. For me, this stage lasted a few months; however, in my instance I came back to this stage several times.

Anger Stage--this stage was wicked. In this stage I can vividly remember thinking, "Where is all this anger coming from? This is not like me! I'm not an angry person! I'm a happy, funny, likeable woman and I feel like I have black tar oozing out of my heart!!" I think I may be a little like you, Bob. I don't usually scream, holler, stomp, curse a blue streak, and rage--especially not at someone I love--but I FELT so angry inside that I just felt like for sure I was headed straight to hell. I think most of this anger began to surface when the "honeymoon" was fading and the real work of what happened and why began. I was so ANGRY that he could just abandon his children--and as a couple we had to slog through that. I was so ANGRY that I could build a life and a business with him, and in one selfish decision he could take that all away from me. I was so ANGRY that he could just dismiss us (his family) so easily when we had made him our world! I was so ANGRY!!!!!!! But that was really only about half my anger. The bigger half was that I was angry at myself. Angry that I allowed myself to be treated like that and never stood up for myself. Angry that I stayed when I was so mistreated. Angry that I let my kids be hurt because I was too weak to leave. Angry that I contributed to marriage-killing. ANGRY!! For me, this stage lasted about 6 months (I guess I was REALLY angry!), and it didn't go away until I stopped trying to deny to myself that I was angry. When I admitted to myself that I actually was angry...that I was allowed to feel that way...that I was "reasonable" to feel angry...then I was able to go THROUGH the anger and not try to skirt around it.

Stuck Wandering Stage--in this stage, you have made it through the anger, and you think, "Well, what do I do or feel now??" You've worked on yourself, worked on your M, felt anger and worked through that--now whaddya do??? I got stuck in this one for a while because I wandered around in circles. I repeated a cycle of "work on something" "beginning recovery" and then finding another A (remember...in my case there were 13 A's that I could prove and probably more that I couldn't). I didn't go through the anger stage for each A--I went through that with his major A and his last one--but I went through the "Stuck Wandering" stage every time.

Wisdom Stage--in this stage you REALLY, FINALLY start to truly "get it." Either as a couple you are entering deep recovery and have gone through the issues and worked on them...or as an individual you are entering deeper personal recovery and have gone through your own issues and actually overhauled your personal systems. You finally "get" personal responsibility. You "get" that it is okay to ask for what you need. You "get" respectful requests and transparent honesty. Often, you start sharing with others too. Hmmm...I think I'm still in this stage!! haha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Restoration--this is the last stage. You are restored, either as two individuals who choose to be a couple, or as a personal individual because you can't choose for your spouse.


Hope that helps, Bob. I think when your lovely Squidy starts really talking to you about the deeper-seated issues in the marriage, and when you start having to tear down the little protective walls and show yourself to her--you will feel the anger. It's the anger that you felt when your children cried for their mother. It's the anger you felt when you needed your wife and no one was there. It's the anger you felt when you knew the OM's name. It's the anger you felt that has been put aside for another day. Well...the reason you feel the anger stage is because "that day is now."


CJ

P.S. Hi, RIF!! Greetings and appreciation to all you boys over there serving our country. Please accept the humble thanks of one stateside chick, and tell all your fellas there "thanks" for me, will ya???

Hi FNCJ!

Thanks for the kind comments... I get to go home on R&R in a couple of weeks and will get to spend our anniversary and Christmas with my family! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My wonderful W and I are most definitely in the 'Restoration' phase and we both work very hard to 'plan-a' each other even though we're separated by 7,000 miles... Excellent job of 'phasing' the stages of rebuilding... you pretty much outlined what my W and I went through.

Hi Bob!

Enjoy the peace that you and Squid are experiencing right now... recognize that most likely, you WILL have a period of anger... and recognize that this is all part of rebuilding your M...

Again, remember... in your anger, do not sin.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Dear Seej !!

Can you STOP dissecting my head and heart with chopsticks please ? You're too dam' good at it for my liking 'specially for someone who's never met me !!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Your best stuff stings me Seej, I'll be honest. I sometimes feel "picked on" by you (but thats good! Complacency risks our recovery working, and I need prodding!) but your insight always informs my decsions to stay as I am or change tack.

For example I had slipped into a phase of 'enjoying the peace' back there for a while and you kicked me out of that. Since confronting Squid in love and maintaining consistent but loving pressure to progress and open up, our lives are less 'comfortable' and peaceful but recovery is advancing hugely, as is my own ( and I hope) Squids personal healing.

The dynamic but loving approach from me has not only catalysed a change in Squids behaviour, but also my own - even a month ago I would never have been strong and informed enough to give up those letter copies for example, and the benefits to BOTH of us seem to have been huge from that act.

So a big THANKS again seej, and on to your phase response.

Reading them at first makes me thankful that my own sitiation was not so awful as your or many other folks on here. Squid never left home ( had no money) and I was the breadwinner so I never faced financial abandonment issues.

It still hurt (and hurts) like heck though.

Paralyzed stage - been there,done that, got the scars. I remember it as I remember the day I hit a wayward old man years ago in my car, and he burst through my wndscreen - every moment in slo' mo'. Past BOTH traumas now I hope.

Down to business stage - yes, I hit a phase where I became functional ENOUGH to make sure our infrastructure didn't fail. Losing my job/becoming homesless wouldn;t help anyone. but I acted in robotic numbness as you describe.

Learning stage - this began for me with the realisation in prayer that although i could choose to divorce or split,and pretty much respond in any way I chose to, I wanted to try to recover our marriage and forgive. The project manager in me made me study affair dynamics and the tools I could use to help. I did this is sadness not anger.

The "Working on something stage" to me was a realization that I had become somthing that was not true to the 'me' I always liked. And that this may have contributed to an environemnt where a person might choose to have an affair (though I will NEVER take any responsibility for Squid doing that. Contributing to a flat marriage is one thing, but I did not influence her choice of response to that). This is when I ralised that the Plan A I was mechanically executing was helping ME as much as it was helping stop the affair and help Squid recover from withdrawal. I guess I'm STILL working on something. I guess I always WILL be.

Beginning recovery - I think this is where I am now. I am beginning to release my fear of resumed contact with OM and I am confident I could cope with whatever is thrown at me. I have bouts of almost overwhelming love for Squid which worries me as such can make people act irrationally, as borne out by some 'honeymoon' posters on here becoming doormats and ceasing the ACTIVE advance of their recovery. Thanks in large part to YOU Seej, I at least recognise when aberrent nehaviours descend upon me. Like I have a third eye that views me dispassionately and advises me. Thats a great attribute I have developed through this mess and I wish I'd had it years ago.

We had a brief 'honeymoon' phase but I am convinced it was my TAKER streching his limbs after a long confinement and Squid's self esteen going for a trot after being locked up.

So that where I am - WE are now. A bit 'working on something' and a bit 'beginning recovery'.

Your list is a great 'straight edge' for a BS to measure progress against. With your permission I will steal it and keep for helping other BS when they ask in future.

So...wahy did I ask ? well....I am surprised that I was not angry but oince again, you bloody anooying woman, you have picked my heart out with chospsticks ! I AM angry : F'KIN' angry but I am not manifesting this in any way I can deconstruct.

OK theres the GYM thing, that helps and I would be lying if I told you those last hard reps weren't on OMs scrawny neck but I am SOOOOO F'KIN@ angry I should be smashing stuff and screaming at Squid not running her candle baths FFS !!!!!!!!!!! ARRRRGHHHH!

Phew !

I think the reason I am not manifesting my anger is that persistent pressure has been so effective with Squid.

She is opening up to me and embedding herself ever deeper in recovery every day almost.

Also she is So VERY sad, guilty and embarassed my anger would surely serve no useful purpose right now. Make her feel worse? Why when she needs me to help her feel BETTER enough to look at my wounds. She isn't emotionally or spiritually healthy enough to cope with what I could show her right now. It would only break down, and not serve to build up IMO.

So...I AM angry Seej, and one day I may have to smash stuff and shout. I had two angry outbursts and both scared me and Squid. One on D-day when I thought I would kill either her or myself and another after WEEKS of exceptional plan A when I found out she had a secret cellphone and had lied to me about NC. Not sure either display helped anyone but she SURE knows how angry and hurt I was at least.

I can't even envision the stuck wandering, wisdom and restoration stages right now.

The prospect of dropping all 'protective walls' right now is scary to me. I'm not even sure I have numbered all my defences. I DO know that Squid couldn't handle them yet. I still have that clenched fist in my diaphragm that means I am braced for the next punch. Dropping defences means relaxing that and maming myself vulnerable to that existential hurt I experienced on D-day and I have no desire to ever feel thatagain right now.

Thansk Seej. I will reread this post when I finish work.

{{{CJ}}}

Again, remember... in your anger, do not sin.

A sentence that says a bookful RIF. Thats so true. Be angry but do not sin because of it. The temptation fo rrevenge, delberate hurt and other crazy stuff is always there in the back of my mind.
Great advice.

Bob, I think you "got it" perfectly when you acknowledged your W isn't ready to deal with your anger yet. The fact is that YOU need to feel safe enough with her to let it out. For me, after the zombie stage, and during it, I had to kick in quickly to the strategic stage. Surprise H by not kicking him out, and Plan Aing him to death. During this time I did have some nuclear LB sessions. Usually would occur after some new bit of A information would emerge. My H couldn't tell me the whole truth for at least 6 weeks, spurred on by my questions and snooping. I would say once you feel safer your anger, deep hurt, and other wonderful emotions will come up, and you will share them with Squid. It is a part of the healing. Enjoy the peace right now. CV

Dear Bob,

another factor might be that you "don't want to kick someone who is already down".

I wasn't very angry with OW when she was really remorseful and/or in withdrawl. But I could feel myself ready to hit back (hard) if she would ever act differently.

So it just might happen that at some point when your W "attacks" you for some reason you'll suddenly find yourself exploding, if indeed you have been holding anger inside.

If you ever feel it - don't push it away, tell her calmly (better than exploding <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ). I told my H just that - yes, I'm angry at you both for what you did to me. I didn't even expect him to reply. I didn't go into lengthy explanations. I didn't scream. But it was very important to me to have my feelings acknowledged at that moment, even if it was mostly ME that had to acknowledge them.

* CV, I think you're right. I need to be patient. It will take years to fix everything, shouting now will be just another thing to recover from rather than something ADVANCING recovery.

* BH you are right. I don't see that 'kicking squid while she's down' advances anything towards recovery.

its hard this stuff isn;t it ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Rebuilding in Faith 90:
<strong> Hi FNCJ!

Thanks for the kind comments... I get to go home on R&R in a couple of weeks and will get to spend our anniversary and Christmas with my family! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Semper Fi,
RIF90 </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RIF90,

You're most welcome...and dude!! You lucky duck--home for the holidays!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

So many of our young men and women won't be with their families this year. Do you know of anyone in your unit who's NOT going home who might appreciate a surprise "pick me up"--like a Holiday Card or Care Package?? My guess is that it perks people up and lifts spirits to get mail at mail call. If you do think of anyone, just shoot me an email at my addy in my signature line, and I will get on it A.S.A.P.--and since I'm not military there will be no SNAFU's! heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

BTW, you sign "Semper Fi"...Marines??? My son is a Marine recruit. I have a soft spot for our rock hard Marines.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Again, remember... in your anger, do not sin. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, most wise, grasshopper! Okay...all kidding aside, this one sentence is actually wiser than it first appears. I think a lot of people associate anger with sin. That is to say, I think that many people think that "to feel angry is sinful" and some think "as long as I bottle it all up and don't act on it, it's not sin" and even more think "angry=screaming, yelling, verbally abusing, raging, etc."

However, in real life anger is an emotion just like any other. As believers, I do not believe we are called to never feel anger. Anger is a "feeling" just as happiness, suspicion, and overwhelmed are "feelings"--they just ARE. So the trick with the anger stage, I think, is to (1)admit that you feel anger, (2) realize that it is just an emotion like any other, (3) recognize that we DO have a duty to rule our emotions and not versa visa (in other words, NOT let our emotions rule us), and (4) to express the angry emotion in a healthy, appropriate way!

It is reasonable to be angry!! When I start to feel angry, I recognize it by recognizing the physical symptoms that *I* exhibit: I hold my breath, I feel a squeeze in my chest, I clench my teeth, and I start to see red. When I recognize these physical symptoms, the FIRST thing I do is BREATHE!!, tell shoulders to relax, unclench my jaw and relax it, and walk away for a minute (like just turn around if I have to...or go to the ladies room...just "get a minute"). Next, I ask myself, "My taker just came out bigtime. Something is not okay with me. What is it? What boundary is being crossed. What is the problem here???" and I let my mind whirl around on that until I can put my finger on it and say it succinctly.

Then I express my anger in a healthy, appropriate way. I can use the "When you--, I think--, I feel--, so--" format. I can call a Time Out because I'm not handling it well. I can go for a walk and do a physical exertion. I can write. I can dance. I can drive on the freeway with the winds rolled down, screaming along to Queen. (I can also drive down the freeway screaming obscenities, and on the occasion, even this funny, lovely, doughball of a woman needs to swear like a sailor.) I have a LOT of options for expressing my anger in a way that is true to myself, healthy for the relationship, and NOT SINFUL.

Anger turns into sin when it is expressed in a sinful way. Anger, in and of itself, is not sinful. HOWEVER, screaming is. Verbally abusing is. Raging at your spouse for hours is. Calling your spouse disparaging names is. Blaming your spouse for your responsibilities is. Speaking in loud, condescending, derogatory tones is. Stomping, slamming, pounding is. Breaking things in anger is.

So see how wise you are?? In one sentence you communicated a whole lesson in anger!!! Gee I'm impressed!!


CJ

FHCJ, I like your posts. You really hit to the heart of the matter.

Hi FNCJ!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> BTW, you sign "Semper Fi"...Marines??? My son is a Marine recruit. I have a soft spot for our rock hard Marines.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I joined the Marine Corps right out of high school... then got into Army ROTC when I went to college... but I still consider myself a Marine!

You should go to your son's graduation if you can... Marching across the parade deck at Parris Island was one of the proudest moments of my life.

Thanks for the offer for care packages and cards. I've got six other guys on my team and we're all getting tons of mail... Stuff just keeps coming in from all over. We've started taking some of the extras to the local schools and sharing them with the Afghan kids. Makes me feel good to know that we're really making a difference over here...

Thanks again for the kind words and for supporting all of us over here...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
<strong> Dear Seej !!

Can you STOP dissecting my head and heart with chopsticks please ? You're too dam' good at it for my liking 'specially for someone who's never met me !!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Your best stuff stings me Seej, I'll be honest. I sometimes feel "picked on" by you (but thats good! Complacency risks our recovery working, and I need prodding!) but your insight always informs my decsions to stay as I am or change tack. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob,

I am just SICK!! I had a huge, long reply to you that took me all night to type...

...and the MB computer ate it! Apparently you can only use 8 smiley faces in a post or it will eat the whole thing and spit you back out at the beginning!!

AARRGGHH!! I'm beginning to feel a whole new Anger Stage emerging!!

Well, I will try to boil this down to two notes. #1--ping me on my email addy in my signature and I'll give you most of the long version.
#2--I have given some considerable thought to this, and I have decided that I want to apologize to you. I hope somewhere in your heart you know that I did not deliberately sting you or pick on you, but boy, I sure did challenge you at every turn didn't I? What made me see the error of my ways was when I looked at where you were when we first met--and where you are now. The only real word for that kind of change that I can think of, is "miracle." And sadly, I recognize that I cruise along challenging you to grow and be a better husband and man, but I never really say out loud how impressed I am at how far you've come, or how hard I am to impress!

I am sorry that I participated in something that hurt you, bro. I've always considered you my younger, taller, probably more handsome brother whilst I'm your older, shorter, and definately less handsome sis (haha). And if I were a fair-weather friend, I would just write about the sunrise reflecting golden off the snow on the Rockies...or the wee sliver of a moon lighting up the pine needles. But I'm not a fair-weather friend, and sometimes I do sting you so you can avoid a sword or a dagger to the heart!

Still, I am very saddened to hear that you feel "picked on", and I have to admit that upon consideration, I can totally see how you would feel that way. I kept prodding and prodding you along, and I did forget to remind myself that you are only human too. Sometimes you need a break or a vacation from "growing" and sometimes a hug works more miracles than a challenge. I hope you will forgive me, and I won't forget.

In fact, I have a suggestion. If it would work for you, I'd like to propose that I continue to challenge ya--but whenever I pick on you, I accompany it with an encouragement or support. For example, I suspect it might do your heart some good to hear out loud that I hold you in the highest of high esteem...or that value you very much as a comrade in arms here on the boards. I don't say these things very easily, Bob, and I'm sorry for that--it's sort of a weakness of mine that I will work on. So whaddya think?? Does that work for ya? One sting+one support??

I'm hoping you don't feel this hurt or this picked on, but in case you do, I want you to know that I want you to feel safe. I personally want to encourage you to do whatever you need to do to give yourself a safe environment here, and if you need to ask me to back off for a while--just say the word. See, you feeling safe to really share what's on your heart or in your mind is paramount, so if my "picking" interferes with that or causes harm, my priority lies in preserving the safety. Does that make sense?? It may not always feel "comfortable" to be told a truth that hurts a little to hear, but it is a safe place to hear that hard stuff, and that haven needs to be preserved.

So sincerely...I hope you will accept my apology.


CJ

P.S. We can talk about all the other "anger" stuff tomorrow. Right now, it's 2am and if I lose this post, I'm having a shot of tequila!! OY!

Boy...a thread-killer, I guess!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />


CJ

Hi Seej !

Not a Thread killer, I've been working away for a coupla of days without any online access !

Its so hard to convey inflections on the internet.

My intention was to tell you in the spirit of our honest relationship that I THANK you for your mentoring. That someone in the rockies wants me to be all I can be and not lose a great chance of personal and marital recovery thorugh complacency or ignorance is humbling to me and also miraculous.

I HAD to point out that, once again, you dug that dental probe right into a bad tooth that I didn;t know needed filling.

DO NOT STOP or change that Seej, while you have a care.
Lord knows we're progressing so well right now I feel reticent to give advice or opinion on many troubled folks' threads as I get "well whadda YOU know with your cuddling, loads of SF and a one month PA ? PAH !".

That doesn't mean I don;t have a LONG way to go.
I meant what I said that in no small part you have helped accelerate my personal recovery, which in turn has facilitated and improving and recovering marriage.PLEASE keep prodding, but I reserve the right to say " OW!" in a grateful way occasionally!

More later, gotta make the kids school lunches ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

{{{{SEEJ}}}}}

I've been trying to think of what to say, and I'm having trouble. Can you believe it?? ME--speechless. Okay, let's take 'em one by one:

1) I realize your intention and could see from your initial post that you were saying, "Thanks for not letting me get complacent". I get it. But I also feel this sort of sadness that something I did stings, and that I think in real life you did/do feel a little picked on.

Maybe it's me...maybe I just need to get over it since you are saying you're okay with it. But in complete honesty I do feel bad and I think I want to think about my methods a little. I sincerely do NOT want to hurt people, and maybe I need to be a bit more gentle.

2) The Anger Stage Toothache can be a mighty stingy one, even if I don't hit that nerve. I suspect that your Anger Toothache had not be aching you as badly, so you thought that the infection was gone or maybe "cured itself." My suspicion is that once you get the knife out of your heart, you will notice that your Anger Toothache still hurts--you were just distracted by the knife, the anesthesia, and the heart surgery.

3) FYI, sometimes the Anger Stage can be pretty darn dark and out-of-character, and I want you to keep something in mind. If you start thinking/feeling those dark, angry emotions there are those of us here on MB that realize that this is not in your character and that it will pass. Don't be afraid of it, 'cuz we're not. Now, it may not be wisest to post some of those dark, angry thoughts here on this particular forum, because a) we don't encourage posting totally raging posts, and b) there are some here who would be insulted or wounded by such an angry, dark kind of post. HOWEVER, we will know that it's not your true character when the anger hits, and we'll wait for it to pass--okay?

3) When I joined the MB board, I knew NOTHING about relationships, needs, LBs or any of it. I was in an abusive relationship (yep-physical, mental, verbal) with a mentally ill man...but I didn't know that. I had to spend a while learning all that, and then spend even more time straightening out myself and my life. My point is that I went through what I went through so that I have patience with people who don't see they are in a cycle...or that they are participating in the cycle! I felt for a long time like I was so slow and stupid in my own life and choices that I had nothing of wisdom to offer. AAAAAK! Wrong! I have what I have to offer. I have a good way of describing and envisioning things, and I can write pretty well.

You have what you have to offer. You offer HOPE to people, that Plan A can work. You offer encouragement to lots of people to do the right thing...because it worked for you. You offer a manly man, hero point of view for the guys. You offer us something to celebrate about a little. Let me tell ya--I really have been at this a long time and there are not many who do work out as well as you have so far, and it's folks like you who keep me at it. You offer goofy stuff like innie and outtie bellebuttons! OY! Plus you offer empathy...been there, done that...and understanding.

See?? You have a lot to offer, and what you offer to people is completely and uniquely YOURS. I couldn't offer hope for marital recover because mine didn't recover. I can only offer PERSONAL recovery (although I consider that an overlooked miracle too).

Boy...I have a lot to say for someone who's speechless, don't I???


CJ