Well, my W still has not moved back home like she said she was going to do. She continues to "hide out" at her P's house. It upsets me, but part of me is glad she is there and not at home. This is where I am getting in a rut.

She came over yesterday for most of the day, when I am around her, I treat her respectfully, don't bring up A, future, or any other serious talk. I am pretty aloof to tell the truth. I have cleaned the house better than anytime since we've been M, stocked groceries, cook meals, etc. I have been alone at home for over two months now. I am getting used to it. Yesterday, I just wanted W to leave, not out of anger, I just didn't want to be around her.

This is the problem, W is not making any attempt to reconcile with me, give me any answers, show me any signs of love or affection, I wonder if she wants to be around me. I know from everything on this site that she is not going to, I will have to do all the work to save the M. But I, in turn, feel like I have shut down. I don't LB, but I am not chasing her. A lot of times, I would rather not see her, well, not in her current state. Compounding these feelings is the revelation that during our 10 yr history together (6 pre M, 4 M) that she had cheated on me multiple times prior to our M. I can tell you now, if I had known about these I never would have married. She knows that as well, that is why she hid them from me, I believe.

Maybe the woman I married never existed. I don't know how to start fixing this. As for the A, NC is still in place (I believe, but am suspicious) and we are still in MC, IC. One minute, I want to dump her, the next work it out. I know why I feel this way. If she would just "come clean" and commit to our M, I would as well and we could start to rebuild. As long as she keeps it all in, makes no effort, we are stuck. How do I break the ice? Whenever I R talk before, the conversation would turn into fogfest and go nowhere. Do I just sit and wait?

Am I normal to be feeling this way? How do I get out of this rut and move this M forward? Or can I without her? Other than these feelings, I am happier, active, upbeat, etc. I just feel like I am moving on and it is starting to scare me. Scares me that when she is ready to deal with our problems, I will have moved on. Is this emotional detachment? Lots of questions, can someone give me some insight? Nothing is happening, we are stuck!

<small>[ November 16, 2004, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

Wow, I don't even know what to tell you. I think all you can do is continue to work on Plan A, and give it some time. Maybe you should talk with you MC or IC about setting a "deadline" that you keep to yourself, and work your butt off until that time is up, and then re-evaluate. Obviously, WW has to be committed to working on the relationship too, but it may take some time before she can.

Good luck, I hope she comes around!!

I am there with you, Bear04. I am in a rut too. My wife has not moved out, but she may as well have. She stays gone alot studying with her classmates and is not willing yet to work on M. I am beginning to experience emotional detachment as well, and it scares me. I don't know how long I can tread water like this. Plus I am concerned that her relationship with a certain "study budy" is questionable. You know what I am talking about. You responded to me last week on this. I am monitoring her conversations on IM now but she is aware of this and is resentful of it. Removed the program once already. I reinstalled it until she can be trusted to save her conversations with him. I don't think she has been completely honest about how many times she has been to see him. She has agreed to go to MC next week. Hopefully she will open up and began to be a part of saving marriage then.

I feel your struggle. I am in a similar situation.

I do have time lines set. I am going to reevaluate in February and, depending on what it's like then, I have a February deadline. Of course these are moving lines, you can't really set a time limit on love. These are more for me, a point that I can look to in the future.

I am really not surprised W is acting this way. It is par for the course. I have known her 10 years, or thought I knew her. I guess I didn't see the A and cheating because I didn't choose to look at it. I didn't think she would do that. Only when i opened myself up to that possibility did I see it. Rather quickly and easily I might add.

W will take a long time to recover, on her own, and then just expect to slide right back into the R. Like flipping a switch.

Hey SC. Stay on top of her. Glad to hear she will go to MC. Just be ready for her to lie to MC, distort everything that is going on, etc.

Emotional detachment, I think this is an emtional self defense mechanism. Frankly, I am starting to like not feeling the pain, not caring. Probably the same way they felt pre-A, not caring.

Another thing that scares me, I know that right now if some woman were to throw attention my way, well, I am ripe to be taken advantage of. I just know that so I don't go out and keep myself out of those situations.

Trippn, I'll get back to you on your thread.

I am preparing myself for the worse, but hoping for the best. I'll let yall know how it goes. I just hope that we can move forward before it is too late. In anger, my wife will frenquently say things like, "Well, maybe we shouldn't be married then!" I cringe when I hear that. Tempting to throw in the towel....but I'm not ready to give up yet. I will keep fighting for her. I love her and can't see myself ever being happy with anybody else....even though we are mostly miserable right now.

Ok, things are a little tough right now. You've been in Plan A and you don't see immediate results.

Don't think for one moment the WS has not noticed the changes you've made. The problem with those changes, is you see very little positive feedback from them. But they are working. Your WS has this niggling feeling in the back of their mind that maybe, just maybe, this OP is NOT the love of their life, and maybe, just maybe my H is not the bad person I have pictured him to be for a few months.

Plan A has a cumulative effect. It has to add up to be effective. WS will have doubts that you are sincere about changing to make the marriage a better place. They don't want to believe they made a really bad decision. It took about 4 months of Plan A to begin to make my FWW see that I was serious about making our marriage work. Between the 4th and 6th month she began to return to the woman I knew before the affair, before the fog set in.

Remember, all this effort must be measured in months, not days or weeks. And if this were you son or your brother caught up in this addiction, would you give up on them this easily? I'd reckon not.

The emotional detachment is a good thing. Your emotions have gone through so much, it's nearly debilitating. Now you have less pain and emotion from which to work, making Plan A much easier to do. Stay on course. It won't be too terribly much longer and you'll start to see glimmers of hope, issued by your WS in actions and/or deeds.

It's not like the flip of a switch and sudden, it's actually so incidental and slow that it's imperceivable, until you look back upon it.

Don't give up. Stay strong. Stay busy. Paint a room in the house to keep your mind active with positive actions. THAT will catch their eye, and make the house look better, too.

You can both do this. Believe in MB, and believe in yourselves! There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and it's not an oncoming locomotive!

best wishes
SD

Good idea....keep busy. There are some things around the house that needs to be done. I need to stop sitting around and moping. Find my own happiness. My WW will see this and see that I can change. And you're right....it is a little easier to fill her EN when I am emotionally detaching.....because I don't expect as much in return. Thanks for your post. I'm going to get busy living again instead of preparing to die.

Why is your time line february...that is too long if you have been seperated for two months already...


I suggest you go in to hyper plan A for a good six week or so...the strict plan B...

But having her over and being just respectful doesn't sound like much fun for either of you....

you gotta charm the dickens out of her...AND you gotta leave her wondering...
and you gotta get her attention....

aloof doesn't describe the emotions of someone who is willing to fight for them...EVEN when they are the ones that did wrong...

aloof sounds like it will have her thinking...

he doesn't really care about me...
he is just used to me....

don't spend all day with her being aloof...better yet...take her out for breakfast....be full of energy and talk...
then tell her how great it is to see her...
and be gone...
with alluding to some other plans you have with some people....

Invite to specific fun or interesting engagements...then drop her back off at her parents with a peck on the cheek or lips....

She can sense you don't want to be around her and it will compound the deeper truer fears that you and she can't get past it....

you have to instill hope by showing her the hope you have on how things CAN be between the two of you....

ARK

ARK-- Been there done that. Peck on the cheek or lips? I WISH! I got negative response. I get negative response anytime I go out of my way. She just says it is "phony". I am smothering her, I am too over the top, etc. As far as February goes, I don't think I have really started a plan A other than showing her I will go on without her. It is hard to plan A someone you see 1/2 hour a day, max, if that. Aloof maybe wasn't a good word to use. When I am with her I am engaging, just more reserved than I was. I have my emotions in check.

Have I noticed changes, Yes. The snapping b*tch is gone now, I don't get blasted for no reason anymore. Yesterday, we didn't spend the whole day together, but it we did have pizza, watch TV together, just talked about little things. Tried to be around each other without having to tackle life's big problems. When did notice these changes? In the past week when I stopped chasing her and started becoming more reserved. I am almost 180ing her.

Here is a sample from today. She asked me if I could please pick up our son from daycare. She has a contiuing ed test she has to study for for work tonight. I emailed in response, "Yes, I will pick him up, I will bring him to P's house before bathtime."

No extra talk, just "yes, I'll have him back at X time" Her response was an "I appreciate it so much, thank you, etc" Now. I never would have gotten that two weeks ago.

I am getting my life in order, being upbeat, keeping the house up, not tripping over myself to please her, no unnecesary phone calls, no asking her plans, etc. I think she sees that and I think she is wondering if she might be losing me.

Another thing, I was talking to my BIL last night. I made a comment as to how I've acted the last couple weeks (plan A). You know what, I treat her no differently than I did pre-A. I always respected her, treated her right. My downfall was not showing affection, things like that, things she won't accept now. Where I started acting like an [censored], outbursts and the like, was a few months into the A. I knew something had changed in our R, just couldn't put my finger on it, but sensed it and reacted badly. I think about this summer now, how I reacted to certain comments she made, how I acted in certain situations. It all makes sense now, I knew all along (that something was wrong) just not what it was.

All in all, I like to think that she fell under some sort of spell. The excitement of something new. It might just be that life with me wasn't bad, just this was different and she could take me for granted.

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

SD-- I am not sure my current attitude is from her lack of response. I think more of it comes from the fact that I feel like I was duped into our M. I wasn't told the truth about our past together before we were M. Now that past has been repeated. I just am doubting whether this person I married ever existed. You are right though, a response from her would do wonders to wipe away these thoughts, or at least answer the questions/doubts.

SC-

I take it that you decided not to expose your wife and her "study buddy" to her parents? Have you made any progress in cracking that relationship yet? Your wife promised to "pahse him out." Has she dones so?

Bear,

I also likened my wife's A to a "spell." But, contrary to the fairy tales, a kiss usually isn't enough to break it.

You've put your finger on an important part of it: the OP is different. In my wife's case, she said, what she liked about him was that he was "expressive" - he told her everything that was on her mind. On the other hand, she admits now that 75 percent of the time HE was what was on his mind...and that a lot of the stuff he talked about was trivial or unimportant.

Still, she liked him. Needs are powerful things.

Have you talked to your wife about the fact that you are now trying to fill her needs? If she has any respect at all for your or the marriage, she ought to be open to your efforts.

Do you think that you can get past the "duped" feeling and move forward? If your wife were responsive about working on the marriage, could you put those past indiscretions away?

Yes. I could get past the indiscretions if she would be honest w/me and disclose them. We need to break down this invisible wall that was betweeen us. I look back and I often wondered about our past, didn't mean much to me at the time, everything was good. The past can come back to bite you and I think that might be what happened here.

What matters to me is the future. If there was commitment on her part it would go a long way. Right now though, according to everything I have read/heard, she is foggy, etc. and not able to give that. Hence, the stuck feeling.

Concerning filling the needs. I told her this, but it was during the foggiest part. She wasn't accepting anything I was saying. I don't know, her family tells me she has always been stubborn (true) and that it just takes her more time to come around. We are all anxious, especially since no one in the family wants things to be in the current state come XMas.

Holidays can be a double edge sword. This season could give us the right lift we need to work things out.

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

bear...then I don't understand...

if you've been there done that with in plan a...why are you still in plan a and not in plan b...

then you say...

I don't think I have really started a plan A other than showing her I will go on without her.

how is showing you will go on without her plan a?...we can all go on without someone..what choice does anyone really have??

still not clear what YOUR plan is or what you are IN...

ark

Bear,

I hear ya, man.

Maybe this will be the, or a, turning point. This will be a chance to get it all out on the table. You wouldn't be here, or in Plan A if you didn't love her.

Stay in Plan A, and when she de-fogs a bit get with Dr. Harley. He's as good as they get, and he reportedly gets to the heart of the matter, even on the phone.

You still have a great opportunity to grow as in individual, perhaps save the marriage, and get to the heart of why your W behaves as she does.

My W had 2 EA's and one EA/PA, and we're closer now than we'd ever been. Still some healing and growing to do, but we are on our way.

Keep posting and learning. You'll be a better man for it, whether you stay married or not!

SD

Ark-- You have me confused about what plan I am in now as well.

Plan A, I guess. Though one of the things that plan A is all about is doing the things you did not do before. For me it was affection, telling her I loved her, I sort of just took it for granted. OK. So right now she's in w/d, coming out of it, fog is thick, and she will accept no advances from me. She doesn't want a hug, kiss, nothing, That was made clear. Now, I'll have to check back because that was a few weeks ago that i was getting shut down.

My plan A consist of no LB's, no outbursts, treating her with respect, being nice, just taking what she'll ALLOW me to do. Like I said, any grandious acts get shot down, any out of character acts are shot down.

My being more resereved, I don't know what to say about it. That is why I posted it scares me that I am detaching and having feelings that I am getting used to being alone. I understood part of plan A was bettering yourself and making your existence not dependant on your spouse and showing that. That is what I am doing.

Bear it sounds like you are letting HER control YOUR plan A...

that you give and do only what she rewards you for...so she is really in total control of every interaction...

in plan a...sometimes if not usually people do and act in ways INSPITE of the WS reaction or receptiveness....

it's a fine line....

She doesn't want a hug, kiss, nothing, That was made clear.

so go another route with affection...ones that are barely pinpointable as thus...

a peck on the cheek cause you just had a lovely time at pizza hut....and now you gotta skiddaddle to meet some mutual friends somewhere....is NOT smothering ...and she KNOWS it...inspite of any accusations as thus....

don't knee jerk back and let her control your actions...
now get I am definitely not advising you to jump and pile the mushy stuff all over her.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

but turn on the charm a little....and a bit more each time..

present her with gifts that are not easily identified as romantic gifts and the usual schlock...
when she comes for dinner yet....have a favorite dessert of hers from a local restaurant..

or make a dessert your self...and have some funny story to go along with it...

bring her a latte...but bring yourself one as well when you see for a half an hour a day..so it's not like you brought HER one..it's more that you got one..and thought of her as well...
buy her a silly stupid candy bar...
say I had to get gas...was dying for a snickers..so I got one...and I remembered you like hershey bars...so have a hershy bar.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

any out of character acts are shot down.
that's her problem not yours..
in changing and showing change.....we dam well better show we are able to be out of character...

on one hand bear you get a half hour each day..
to be
charming
silly
upbeat.
happy to see her..
smile at her
look in her eyes..

you can really captitalize on a half hour..

tell her some funny story that happened..

mention you talk to friends of yours...and you and them were laughing about the time you all ____________________

bring unromantic gifts of things she likes NOT every time....here and there ...enough to keep her thinking...

set up some type of fun thing with mutual friends....
invite her
and go even if she doesn't...have it be something she would usually enjoy....

do rearrange a room or two...
(come to my house and re-arrange a room or two as well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

do join a class or something...and push your own envelope....
take an improv or an acting class...especially if you were some one who didn't show affection and emotions...
see where getting in touch with the silly side of you gets you...

sounds cheesy you think...
I bet really it sounds scary to you...

but man would that get her attention..
and
you'd meet silly people so you'd be reconnected with laughter...
and you might learn to feel more comfortable in expressing yourself....

and you'd feel better....
and you'd feel some things...

ARK

Thanks for the tips. Now that I read some of these, I have been doing some of them. When I'm at the store picking up a diet coke, chips and salsa for her (favorite snack). Arranging and cleaning the house so when she comes over she sees a place to settle in rather than just a bunch of work.

On Sunday, I really got the feeling that she was depressed to be leaving. We had a pleasant time, watched HER favorite TV show (change for me) not football, I've taken aninterest in this show. Asked her what happened (I missed last week). I make it sound like I have totally cut her off, I haven't, it just feels that way.

I'll try to slowly ramp up the romantic acts. This is going to be hard though. Two weeks ago, I sat down on the couch next to her, room for my guardian angel between us, and she moved further away. That is tough to overcome. Maybe I'll blow her a kiss!

I do let her control my actions, I can't do that anymore, but my fear is I will drive her away, or crazy. When I did make any sort of advances she would get real ticked. IMO she feels she doesn't deserve my affections.

Need advice on this sitch. This concerns her company Xmas party. I asked her when it was and this is the reply I received.

Our party is 12/10, a Friday night. I've been going with just the girls
and going out afterwards the last few years, so I was planning on doing
the same this year. We got our invites last week. I don't know if [one of friend's H's]
is going or not, but he'd be the only guy left that you would
know...GFriend 1 doesn't work here anymore, and she's going as GFriend 2's
date, so we can all go out later. I just assumed you wouldn't go since
you haven't gone the last few times. Are you planning on going to any
of your parties?

This is a major component of our probs pre-A. Living seperate lives. She just doesn't get it when I tell her I want to feel more included. Notice she made this decision without even telling me, much less that the party time had been set.

I want to go to this, I want to be included in W's life. Need help in talking with her about this. I am supposed to talk to her in an hour.