this post might be choppy, i am trying to keep my emotions out of it and just write about the facts and my thoughts on the matter with the hopes of possibly either getting confirmation on my conclusion or getting other's perspectives.

its been 3 weeks since d-day 2. since then we have had some good times, some hard discussions. he acknowledges that he has a lot of pent up anger that he does not know what to do with. he is not interested in MC, at least not now.

on a physical level, we have not had intercourse (and, of course, he does not kiss me), mostly i give to him, a few times he has wanted to give to me.

i'm not sure what else to share in order for you to have a good picture and therefore be able to make any conclusions yourselves.

last night, he told me the reason he does not want intercourse is because he is not confident that there has not been risky behavior on my part since i was tested for any STDs and he does not want to put his health at risk.

i have shared with him internal changes that have occured in me. specifically how i now feel God's love extends to me which is a very significant thing to me. so incredibly freeing, so comforting, something i have never had in my life. something that has taken away the hole in my heart.

i have also told him how i have a new view of sex. i'm not sure if i can adequately explain how the act of sex has changed for me. which means i can't say for a fact that he understands when i tried to explain it to him either. i see sex as a gift now, that i freely give out of love only. it is not something i do in order to gain love or in order to be more appealing. i think that was always an underlying thought in my head.

what he told me last night really hurt. and i don't know if i just need to manage that hurt and not take it to heart so much. right now i'm concluding that there is no reason to try to continue here, there is absolutely nothing left to build on.

other's thoughts?

FL,

It sounds to me like your H is using the concern over "risky behavior" as a crutch to avoid dealing with bigger, more painful issues. The ultimate issue here, of course, is trust. And..it will probably take a while for that to return.

But, there are practical ways around that. You could get tested again, for instance. Or...you could use a condom or find some other way to make him feel safe.

Offering to do these things will take away his excuses. If safety is a genuine concern, that his fears will be alleviated. If it's simply an excuse, his bluff will be called, and he'll be forced to deal with the real issue.

Hi FL -

I think you are saying that your H doesn't trust that you have been faithful since you were tested for STD's, and that hurts your feelings, because you have made every effort to tell him that you have changed.

I know how frustrating it is to want to convince someone that you won't betray him again, because I've been there. We all know that the pathway back to trust is a very long and rocky one. He needs more time, FL.

Would he feel safer if you got tested again for STD's? I know it's humiliating, but seems like it would be worth it if it would give him peace of mind.

God bless,

Rose

i would be happy to get tested again if that would help him. i will ask him.

rose, i want to think that i just need to give this time. it just hurts so much right now. part of me thinks i have no right to feel hurt given what i have done to him, but i'm so tired of all of this. i just want us to be happy.

andrew, your suggestion is a good one, i'll think about it. i just fear that might anger him for some reason. i am interested in hearing more opinions.

i'm going to work out now, be back in an hour or so.

FL, I don't quite understand the details... but here's what the late great Shirley Glass has to say about it (this may be nothing new):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some unfaithful partners give an adolescent rationale: "We were swept away by love and didn't want it to look like it was preplanned." Although relying on birth control pills or diaphragms may protect from unwanted pregnancies, those methods still expose the participants to sexually transmitted diseases. Few people regard their affair partners as a possible source of infection, so they don't take the necessary precautions to have safe sex.

Unprotected sex is a painful reminder of how inconsiderate and reckless the unfaithful partner may have been during the affair. Regardless of protestations, both spouses should be tested for AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases. Willingness to submit to these humbling medical exams and tests is an act of consideration and accountability by the involved partner that will remove another obstacle to resuming safe marital sex.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably not news to you, FL, but I thought it would be worthwhile to throw the good doctor's words up.

GC

Oh, I understand now. He isn't confident you haven't engaged in any risky behavior between the time you were tested and now.

Well, he shouldn't be. Only consistent actions for a certain length of time will make him able to trust you. Have you read NOT "Just Friends"? I'm selling that book all over the place the last couple of days.

GC

FL,

“i just want us to be happy.”

“Happiness” might be a long way off…be looking forward to when everything just feels “O.K.,” then work your way up to happiness from there!

I know it is a long road, but if you still want to recover your M, keep on going. You have been working very hard for a long time, not only on your M, but on yourself. Just re-read your first post on this thread and remind yourself of the changes that have occurred in you!

It’s understandable that you are tired. I know it’s hard to change gears, and probably even to focus, but maybe it’s time to take time away from all the soul-searching and worrying and do something you like to do.

Go to a movie, the zoo, etc. Burn a scented candle. Think of a holiday tradition that comforts you and plan on recreating that. It’s o.k. to take a break now and then. Maybe your H would even join you in some activity.

This scripture verse helps me: Ephesians 6:13, 14 “That is why you need to put on God’s full armor. Then on the day of evil you will be able to stand strong. And when you have finished the whole fight, you will still be standing. So stand strong…” (NCV) The King James Version says, “...and having done all, to stand.” When you’ve done everything you can to stand, STAND. Hang in there, FL.

God bless,

Rose

FL

I told my H of my A some 4 months ago. Though he SAYS he loves me & many here who post to him assure me he does, he does not trust me and I am sure has not forgiven me completely. And I doubt he can love me like he once did.
But he says hes wokring on it and I know I am. It has to be by my actions because words just won't do it.

I dont expect great miracles or a magic wand to fix it, I'd love for it to happen but I know it won't. I have reluctantly accepted it will takes YEARS, not days, not months, but years.
Can we blame our H for that? I don't think we can. We took their love, commitment their very manhood and threw it in their faces.
The way I look at it is that I'm lucky he even wants to try at all.

I went through and sometimes do even now, that stage of wanting him to 'just get over it' & 'lets get on with our lives'. Doesn't work that way FL.
Just like us they seem to move forward and suddenly run into a brick wall & it seems we start all over again. Thats part of the healing process I am told by so many here and also my IC/MC. But yes it sucks!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I think what happened in your case was that you told him the first time about the last A, he started working on the M, trusting you again, you were working your butt off to get him to trust and love you again, and then WHAMMY !! He gets hit again.
You got to the point you trusted him enough and told him the WHOLE story and to him its like you have been lying the entire time, he just KNOWS you were cheating on him AGAIN because he feels that regardless of the truth, and he does not want you near him for now. Even being alone with you is probably painful for a little while.
That too is a process.
That he is giving excuses may be a good sign because he may be trying to not LB you, even if hes not aware of MB he may know he does not want to explode with his anger at you.
My H went through a similar phase and just did not want me near him. I could feel him tense up when I touched him on the arm or hand and at night he was like a loaded spring he was so wound up thinking I would touch him. Very painful for me as well as him and it hurt like hell. It went on for weeks.
He told me that actually touching me made him physically ill. Its the movie thing again.

The ILY's are a waste of time because as far as hes concerned you lied again. Hes just full of pain & can't see anything else. Everything you say, all he can respond with is you hurt me again. He'll say it in a million ways but it comes down to that.
But you have finally lanced the boil.
Its going back to the beginning and start the process all over. I think he will get to a place where he will understand you were handing him all the past sins and errors as a final sign of totally wanting to work on your M and relationship with him.
DOn't loose hope or get impatient. It is hard but you can do this!!
My IC/MC says its dogged persistence that wins through, picking up the pieces each time he throws it away and bringing it back. If he didn't want to stay then he could get a divorce is what she reminds me of constantly.

FL,

If I were in your shoes I wouldn't even ask him if he wants you to get tested again. I'd get the tests done as soon as possible and then hand over the results and tell him "I'm sorry you were concerned; you had every right to be. I hope this helps you feel a little safer. What else can I do to help make you feel safe? How can I begin to earn some trust?"

Words are cheap and actions are what matters. You know that, I guess I just like to state the obvious <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

He's already told you he's not confident there's been no risky behavior on your part. It is your job to show him *through actions* that you heard his fears and that you are willing to *do* whatever you can to help mend your relationship.

The words about a new view of sex are good, but it will take time before they carry weight like something objective and tangible can.

GC, i totally understand why he has his doubts. how can i not? but how will that ever change. how will he see consistent actions for a certain length of time when he does not even feel the time clock can start. he has no confidence that i didn't meet someone to have sex with yesterday.

what bothers me the most is the amount of SF without intercourse (mostly just to him) has occured. he is not sickened by that touch AW, that physically feels very good to him. and my conclusion is the only way that feels good to him is because all feeligs are completely gone, no hate and no love and so he can enjoy physical only with me. how do i deal with that guys?? i can't do that! not now and not ever again, how does he not understand that??

i don't want to freak out and say anything i'll regret. i think of JL saying... "is this a deal breaker", if not, don't act like it is. last night i went to the couch to sleep (this was after some major non-intercourse SF that went both ways). that is when i said, i don't understand why we are not having intercourse and that is when he explained exactly why not, in a very cold and detached voice. all i can think is, some people don't recover from this, i'm not saying that is a weakness in him, but it just might be the facts.

what do i do tonight at bedtime, and tommorow and the next night? should i just sleep on the couch? but what about the kids seeing that. should i go to sleep before him and hope i fall asleep quick and stay that way when he comes to bed and then get up quickly in the morning.

how do i act "normal" around him now?

TH, i was tested back in march. i had already set up the Dr appt before H asked. i doubt new test results would do anything for him. he thinks it is very possible that i will do this again at any point in time and that i would not tell him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FinallyLearning:
<strong> TH, i was tested back in march. i had already set up the Dr appt before H asked. i doubt new test results would do anything for him. he thinks it is very possible that i will do this again at any point in time and that i would not tell him. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FL, you may be absolutely correct. Having the tests and showing him the results may not help.
He may think "bad things" could happen at any time.

BUT... let's examine this.

The fact that you *are* telling him difficlut truths are actions that, believe it or not, do a LOT to assuage the fears of a BS. I wish I could emphasize strongly enough that it is not the painful truth that does the damage(although it does hurt), it's the deception and lies. So while he has some cause to think "bad things" might happen in the future, and he has cause to think you wouldn't tell him (because you hid those truths from him in the past), your continued, consistent action of telling whole truths no matter how difficult will convince him that you HAVE changed. You are a better FL.

Likewise, going and getting the tests done is an ACTION that might give him reassurance because you're not infected. It will give him more reassurance because he'll see that you are doing everything you can to ease his pain and earn his trust. It's not so much the fact that the tests are negative as it is the fact that you act to make things better.

Consider the alternative: he's told you he's concerned you may have engaged in at-risk behavior. You don't go get tested. What is a freaked out BS going to make of that? Maybe you are infected. Maybe you know you could be and don't want to find out. Maybe you aren't but his peace of mind isn't important to you. Maybe...

It's not so much the information (negative test results) as it is the fact that your actions are consistent with your words, and that you are willing to support your words with actions.

Hi FL,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> last night, he told me the reason he does not want intercourse is because he is not confident that there has not been risky behavior on my part since i was tested for any STDs and he does not want to put his health at risk.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W confessed to additional A's 10 years after the fact... I asked her to get tested again for the very same reasons that your H gave you. I know it was embarrassing for her, but she did it without any complaints. Her willingness to do this for me spoke volumes about her commitment to me...

My suggestion is for you to schedule an appointment with your family Dr w/o telling your H... get a full STD test, then give the results to your H... Remember, at this early stage, your ACTIONS will speak much louder than your words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what he told me last night really hurt. and i don't know if i just need to manage that hurt and not take it to heart so much. right now i'm concluding that there is no reason to try to continue here, there is absolutely nothing left to build on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know this hurts you. Please look at the FACTS... your H is still with you. He hasn't run away. He is hurting. You are hurting. But you are both still together. Please think about the facts and not your feelings...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i want to think that i just need to give this time. it just hurts so much right now. part of me thinks i have no right to feel hurt given what i have done to him, but i'm so tired of all of this. i just want us to be happy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Completely 'normal' desires... but recognize the fact that your H is a good bit behind you in knowing all of the issues regarding your A's... for him, he's still trying to process everything. You must have patience with him as he deals with this in his own way. Give him time to process all of this... reassure him of your love for him... let him know that you desire him and that you are commited to rebuilding the M.

You will get through this... focus on actions that will show your H your love and commitment to him and the M... Deal with facts... not feelings... You and your H are in my prayers.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> all i can think is, some people don't recover from this, i'm not saying that is a weakness in him, but it just might be the facts.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FL, you are correct, some people don't recover from this... my W and I did recover.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...and my conclusion is the only way that feels good to him is because all feeligs are completely gone, no hate and no love and so he can enjoy physical only with me. how do i deal with that guys?? i can't do that! not now and not ever again, how does he not understand that?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are thinking for your H... this is what's known as a disrespectful judgement. Your H is hurting... the SF might not be exactly the way you like it or want it right now, but it is a way for you and your H to connect. He needs a connection with you...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what do i do tonight at bedtime, and tommorow and the next night? should i just sleep on the couch? but what about the kids seeing that. should i go to sleep before him and hope i fall asleep quick and stay that way when he comes to bed and then get up quickly in the morning.

how do i act "normal" around him now? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try and make it a point to get the kids in bed early and go to bed with your H... Don't try to get into a big R talk... just "be there" for him...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

i have absolutely nothing against getting tested again.


what about this part...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">what do i do tonight at bedtime, and tommorow and the next night? should i just sleep on the couch? but what about the kids seeing that. should i go to sleep before him and hope i fall asleep quick and stay that way when he comes to bed and then get up quickly in the morning.

how do i act "normal" around him now?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

rif, i just saw your last post...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He needs a connection with you... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">do you at all think he is losing more and more respect for me if i continue to do anything with him now??

FL,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> do you at all think he is losing more and more respect for me if i continue to do anything with him now?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think that by having SF with your H... even if it doesn't involve intercourse, will cause your H to lose his respect for you.

One thing that hasn't changed throughout all of this is that you are still his Wife. He is your Husband. He is dealing with the pain of your actions... but yet he is still willing to connect with you sexually.

For me, SF with my W after I "found out", was a way for me to try and reclaim my wife from all of the OM... early on in our rebuilding, my W felt very uncomfortable with SF and we would go for weeks without. Looking back, I believe that she was dealing with many of the same thoughts that you've mentioned.

I never lost any respect for my W when we had SF... but I did lose respect for her when she withheld SF from me...

If you are able to have SF with your H, then I think that you should... Try to focus on just enjoying each other without trying to analyze what he's thinking or feeling.

The other options of going to bed before him or after he does will only show your H that you don't want to be near him... and that's not what you want to show your H right now... He needs to be with you. He needs to know that you want HIM.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

we just talked on the phone. he wanted to know if we were indeed not going to sleep together anymore, if it was my intention to sleep on the couch. i asked him if that is what he wanted. he said i was the one that had that requirement not him. i asked him, what do you want? he said, he didn't know, he would have to think about it.

guess i might as well just completely make myself vunderable to him. this is what i am going to tell him.

i am your wife, and so i want to sleep in the same bed as you and i want to bring you physical pleasure whenever you want. i will not assume that physical contact between the two of us is physical only for you. that is a disrespectful judgement and i am sorry i jumped to that conclusion and i ask you to accept my appology. you are not the type of person that would use another for physical pleasure only. you are a person that has been hurt deeply by me and needs time to heal. unless you tell me you don't want me sleeping in our bed or you don't want any physical contact between the two of us, this is how i intend to proceed.

rif, just saw your previous post. thanks. as you can see by mine, i guess i agree with you. that's not to say it isn't going to be hard.

FL,

I saw several things in your posts that I think need to be addressed:

* My exH also had multiple A's, so I can relate pretty strongly to your H. It's not so much that you might have a "disease" although you might...it's the feeling INSIDE YOUR H that he can not trust his own senses to tell if you're having an A again--after all you had more than one and he missed it! So a major part of what he's saying is, "You could have something that could KILL me, and I can't even tell if you're doing that behavior again or not." It's about HIM, not about you--do you see that? He can not trust his own instinct anymore, so he is in complete survival mode.

* Your words have shared with him the internal changes in you, but in his head, he has already made the rule="Words mean nothing." Thus, he can not tell if your internal changes are "just more words" or if they are actual changes. The only way to tell if internal changes are real is if you see the internal become external AND if the message is consistent in Word and Deed. That takes time...for it to be blatantly in his face for a while. Furthermore, there may be a little part of him that doesn't even want to see what is right in front of his face! So give it time and SHOW him your internal changes--don't just talk about them.

* You told him about your new view of sex as a gift given out of love alone. You also told him you had told him the whole truth and you hadn't. You also told him that there was one and there were more. So "told" does not work anymore. SHOW. DEMONSTRATE your new view of sex with your body with him now. DEMONSTRATE the great lengths you are going to in order to avoid internet contact. DEMONSTRATE!

* In my opinion, as a BS of multiple A's--some PA, some EA, some cybersex, some illicit email, some ONS--I think you need to manage your own hurt and not take this so personally. I LOVED my H...I WANTED him to want me and only me, and he repeatedly demonstrated that he was not willing/able to limit it to just me. I probably would have stayed if he could have WILLINGLY SHOWN me that he was willing to be uncomfortable in order to work on this. See, in my mind, he was willing to crush and destroy me, but when I asked him to deal with hurt a little in order to help me heal, he took off. FL, you have crushed and destroyed your H, and now that he's asking you to endure a little discomfort for him, you're about to give up. Hang in there girl. Manage your own hurt and don't take it so personally.

* You wrote: "...it just hurts so much right now. part of me thinks i have no right to feel hurt given what i have done to him, but i'm so tired of all of this. i just want us to be happy." I suspect that he also wants that. But FL, you have had the benefit of knowing the truth all along and going to counseling and coping with the real truth--he has not! How long did it take you to deal with some of the core issues here? Was it THREE WEEKS? Or did it take a few months to come to admit to yourself what you were doing, work through the pain, and then start to CHANGE and do the work required in "rewiring" yourself?? See what I mean?? You have been able to know about this and adjust and have the support of a counselor--your H has not. He just found out! Where were you 3 weeks into your own counseling plan? And your H probably is not dealing as well as YOU did because he doesn't have the help of a professional!!

You have it off your chest and you are ready to move ahead. You have had time to adjust and deal with it. You are potentially ready to be "new" and "happy." He is not. So now the REAL question is whether you are willing to be considerate of the partner you have hurt and give him the same amount of time to adjust and deal with it that you gave your own self.

* Aussieswife wrote: "... he does not trust me and I am sure has not forgiven me completely. And I doubt he can love me like he once did. " It's not a matter of not forgiving. In my mind, I can forgive my WS and make a decision to not hold it over his head...but the natural consequence of that kind of betrayal is that *I* (as BS) have to deal with and work on a lot of destruction. In a way, I envision it this way: the WS comes up to my strong brick building of a "marriage" and demolishes it all. The BS is left with a pile of rubble. Then the WS realizes what they've done and asks for forgiveness. Okay...the BS can forgive the WS for bringing down the house, but the pile of rubble is still there!! It's not unwillingness to forgive to say, "Could you help me rebuild??" So the BS and WS start building a whole different "marriage" and about then the WS says, "You don't forgive me for knocking down the house! Can't we just live in the building we had! You keep bringing it up!!" Well YEAH! We can't go back to living in that old one because it's gone--and we DO forgive you but there is still rubble--and we bring it up because as we're rebuilding we run across "oh I remember were this brick was when XYZ happened" and the rubble is still all around us!! It's not unwillingness to forgive...it's more like not shielding the WS from the natural consequences of their actions.

* Also from Aussieswife...just a note. A BS can not love you like they once did. That would be returning to a non-functioning, unhealthy model. The way that a BS and WS recover is to build an entirely different, wholely new, much more healthy and intimate level of love. It's not going to be like it used to be...but thank God for that!! It's going to be falling in love again with each other in whole new ways.

* Finally and in conclusion, sleep with him in the same bed. That marriage bed is HUGELY important, and if after a few weeks of him not dealing so well you are ready to jump out of it, that speaks volumns to him too. If you truly are not comfortable with having physical contact that does not lead to intercourse, you have a duty to your Self and your new view of sex to tell him that--using "I feel" statements. This may not be good news to him, but it will also demonstrate that you just are not willing to have cheap sex or give it for just any old reason. Stay in that bed!! Give him what you can that stays true to your new Self. Be open and communicate what DOES and DOES NOT work for you.


CJ