Native,

He's a young guy. But..he's got parents, right? And he must work somewhere.

You have a PI on this case, if I recall correctly. Why don't you ask him if he can dig up some background info on this guy?

I'm sure at times that a "Unmarried" young guy would "take off" very fast when confronted with a few young children!

If only this was possible without "damaging" the children because it's surely a great way to "pop the fantasy bubble".

Just imagine how "confusing" the situation would be, if the kids were simply dropped off at OM house together with BS!!! I'm sure he'd be "shocked to death!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (and imagine what his parents would say <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) I'd give this not even 24hours to survive and the dream would be over!!!

bb

HH,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, to do the right thing in Plan A, should I stop kissing her, telling her I love her, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Part of plan A is meeting her ENs. If she has affection as one of her top ENs you bet you better do those things and not let up for a second! To do otherwise would only allow her to convince herself that you never loved her in the first place. If you did, you would have.... justification for her A, you see?

HOWEVER -- when you tell her you love her, it should be because your heart is full of love for her, and NOT because you're feeling needy and want to hear her say "I love you" back to you. The kisses and I love yous etc. should be gifts - not tests, and not needy. Gifts.

One thing that will help is instead of saying "I love you" (anyone can do that), is to be specific. Tell her how much you love the way her neck curves into her shoulder. Tell her how much you love the way the sunglight dances on her hair and brings out all the colors in it. Tell her how much you love her warm or sparkling laugh. You get the idea. Make it specific and personal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am just not sure how to act..when I do little things like bringing home a single rose, making her breakfast, etc. she says that it makes her mad, that she doesn't want me doing nice things for her because I am 'trying to win her over'. I tell her that I am only being myself and doing what I feel like doing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like a good response to me. When you are nice to her it makes her feel guilty. It also puts little holes into her "why would I ever want to stay M to this man" self-talk.

Be sure you stay consistent and make this attentiveness part of your life. It sounds like she felt neglected and like you didn't love her. Now, it's hard to tell if htat's the truth or if she's rewriting history due to the A, but if she did in fact feel like you took her for granted or were lukewarm toward her, her biggest fear right now is leaving her newfound love to take a chance on the M, only to have you revert to your old ways. She's already hurt once (by feeling neglected); she won't want to hurt twice more (giving up OM, then being neglected again). It will take months of consistent attentiveness on your part to dissipate this attitude of hers. After all, it takes months of inattentiveness for things to go sour in a M.

I think you all made good points. I tracked down a phone number and address on the guy. Phone number was disconnected but I drove to the house. It's definitely the right place, name on the mailbox. There are toys in the yard, electric meter was spinning...no question someone still lives there. I am going there tonight to talk to his wife. My WW tells me he is living with his mother, but I know his vehicle and won't go there if it's there. I need to have a talk with her, though.

WW just called me on her lunch break to tell me she was sorry for the things she said last night and that she was calling me to keep from calling him.

HH,

stick to your plan....................exposure is very important, that's for sure.

take care
bb

HH,
As you will note, I am a HH as well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I have not lived in Hoosier land since ’86, but have family there.
First, I have been in your shoes & I know the pain you must be feeling. Hang in there,
man! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have read through all of these posts, I want to say that I concur with virtually everything everyone has told you.

This is not an easy deal! You have just had your world cave in & yet you need to project a strong image to your WW. You must be appealing & like others have said, clingy & hurt & self-pity is not a way to win her attention back. I know this is extremely difficult!!

Understand that in most cases the WS makes all kinds of claims as to why they did what they did – For the most part, it is a rationalization to justify their bad behavior. No matter how much you "did not pay attention to her (that sounds weak to me!)." What she saw in "looking into his eyes!" BS FOG!! You did not force her into the arms of the OM!! No matter how she tries to deflect that onto you, this is her deal!! Don’t feel guilty that this is your fault!! My X would say that the compliments from the OM (Plural –Multiple times!) just meant more than my compliments!!

The WS can say & do what would normally be considered absurd stuff – Like she going to punish you, (“don’t expect anything from me”) if you insist on NC?! WOW! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I would be tempted to play that back to her as a challenge; like does she really want to work on the marriage?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> That would probably be a love bust?

Another aspect that I see in many if not most cases is that the WS for a period of time at least wants to have their cake & eat it too. Does not want to initiate a NC with the OM for example! You are absolutely correct in pursuing any and all strategies to get the NC – All under the presumption that your WS does want to repair damage & Marriage!
Unfortunately, in many cases the WS does not really care that much about the pain of the BS! They are all wrapped up in their own self gratification & fantasies, that is big part of the what drove the A! Think about it, now they have all this attention from two guys that give them feedback about how wonderful & desirable they are --- Like someone else said, for the WS, it is like an addiction! AS a BS we have to careful NOT to get all wrapped up in making the WS the center of our focus – they have betrayed us! We have to also think about ourselves!! Our emotional safety! They have to earn our trust back! Typically this is hard for the WS – It involves them admitting that they screwed up – Again, with this focus on their gratification & feelings of self worth. When they are asked eat a little humble pie, well this is difficult at best. Their fantasy world is caving in & they many times want to cling onto to those feelings!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Remember, she has deceived you & she may have a certain amount of inner confidence that she can continue to deceive – so like others have said, be careful what you believe – follow your instincts, they are normally right! Physical meeting to initiate NC? Non-Sense! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I know your mind is racing and it may be hard to concentrate & comprehend what exactly is the best next step & procedures. One book I would strongly recommend is James Dobson’s “Love Must Be Tough.”
I composed this off line - just read your last post.
I am in total agreement about contacting the OM's W, but I strongly urge you not to go to there house at night. Who knows what you find, but if he is there & his W, there is a distinct possibility that he wil get agitated (He wants his cake & eat it too!) and you of course are in a heighten state -- It could get physical - you don't want to go there!!
I would keep it to Phone Conversations. Maybe you have to do more research - Or go there when you know he would be at work. You don't need a face to face confrontation! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Speaking of potential retaliation - I had an attorney give me good advice -- file a report with the police, telling them what is going on & give them the OM's name and all. They will give you a reference Number. Tell your parents or friend. That way if something happens - even damage to your property, you have some measure of protection & you can also tell the OM's W about the report.
Good Luck, Man! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
HH

<small>[ November 17, 2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurting Hoosier:
<strong>
... My WW tells me he is living with his mother, but I know his vehicle and won't go there if it's there. I need to have a talk with her, though.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, I did not see that part! Good decsion!

For your WW to insist that you not contact ... HMMM -- why would that be?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> If the OM is totally free, why would that matter?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Again, it is very typical for the WS NOT to be upfront & honest!!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
For some strange reason <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> people that know of A's tend to keep the secret & protect the WS's - they don't want to be the ones to break the bad news -- it is as if they would be a fault -- it is the WS's!!
When I spoke to the OM's W - And I am not sure now if it was the right guy,(she may have been spinning a tale to protect another Married Guy - she was a wild one!!) but no matter now. I digress! When I clled OM's W I told her that I did not want to medal, but that if it were me I would want to know ... Most everyone agrees to that, yet they tend to not tell, even when it is a friend! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Hang in there, Man!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

HH

I think this points to another reason not to talk with the OM...

If you do, he'll probably go into protection mode at home.

He'll find ways to discredit you before you can even talk to his wife. "There's some crazy guy who has been bothering me..."

Don't show your hand to anyone. prior to exposing this.

Like HH, however, I'm a bit concerned about this plan for exposure by a personal visit. I wish there were a way to do it by phone. A certified letter would work - but ONLY if you are sure she will get it.

Given that time is an issue here, a visit is probably your only option.

Well, here's an update. I just went there and caught his wife at home. Such a nice lady who doesn't deserve any of this any more than I do. She has been praying that there would still be a way to save her marriage, I told her my prayers were the same...the OM is a deacon in their church.

Of course she had no clue about any of it and was mortified to learn that he had taken her kids on a trip with a strange woman and that his mother accompanied them. I have probably put the final knife in my marriage, but it was worth it for this woman to know what she had a right to know.

They are seperated, he moved out about a month into the A, beginning of September. Middle of September, when he any my WW were supposedly falling into soulmate type love, he came over and tried to pay his wife for sex. Then he came at the end of September and tried again for sex.

One thing that I am not sure makes me feel better or worse is that this woman told me she does not blame my WW for this. She said she knows the kind of person the OM is and that he cheated on her one month into their marriage ten years ago and was almost fired from his previous employer for sexual harassment because it was another employee (he was a supervisor at my wife's former workplace where the A started as well). I told her that my WW was at least half to blame and she argued with me...says he will say anything to get sex and that she can guarantee me that he doesn't love my WW, she is only sex to him until another comes along.

At any rate, we exchanged contact info and I told her to call me any time for any reason. She said that she would make sure everyone on her side of the family knew about this immediately. She also said he had been asking for joint custody of the kids and she was going to give it to him but that now he was in for the 'nastiest divorce in history'.

I don't even want to go home tonight...I know it will take almost no time for this to make it back to my WW...she will be irate...I suppose this will answer whether she really wants to save the M.

The rage she will show tonight is NO indication of whether she wants the M or not. Her ship will run into the rocks in the fog tonight and she won't be happy.

It's what happens after that will determine how long yoiu will have to deal with this...will she push her skiff back into the water, back into the fog, or will she stay on shore and try to repair her boat?

She will probably try damage control over the next few days, try to convince you it's not so bad, and will be faced with the idea that OM may be single soon and decide of he is the one for her (probably not).

Ugh, it will be ugly tonight, maybe a good night to say hi to her, here a bit of what she has to say, but go see a movie you've been waiting to see and let her cool off.

HH,

You did the right thing! Your wife is going to be pissed, as you well know. Try to remain calm and ride it out.

Your conscious is clear: you did this for the right reason - TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE!

You've moved this affair a lot closer to the grave. Be patient. We're here for you.

HH,

you did the "right thing" remember that.
Even if your wife is probably going to be "furious" you have NO reason to feel bad.

It's your wife's "guilt" and the fact that this is now "exposed" is what makes her furious.

Try your best not´to get "winded up" in a discussion with your WS because it isn't going to make much sence.

What your WS has done is plain and simply not the right thing!!! No one else is at fault except for the two involved in the affair, so no matter what she tells you, it is not "your" fault.

Try your best to stay calm...............listen to her "vent" if you can but try not to justify your actions. Your WS will not sympathise with you and for what you did, no matter what.

It was the best thing you could of done, speaking with OMW. This is going to shed alot of light on the other side............

Please hang in there and take the best care of yourself!!!!

Would you have the possiblility to speak with Steve Harley????

bb

My thought is that I would tell her I was very sorry that she was upset, but that the OMW had a right to know about this and that I did the right thing for the right reasons.

Then tell her that I care for her very much and want to save my M more than anything, then excuse myself for the rest of the evening. Nothing but love busting is really possible tonight I would expect.

Sound like a good plan?

p.s. I just can't get over some of the things I learned...while he was seeing my wife he tried to bribe his separated wife for sex twice...what a peach this guy is!

<small>[ November 17, 2004, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Hurting Hoosier ]</small>

Hooiser,

That sounds liek a pretty good plan to me. I've never ben in that exact situation, though. The only part of this that I am a bit concerned about is the leaving part. If you leave, is she likely to hook with the OM?

Let's hope that the guy's wife follows through with her threat to give him hell over custody. That will likely be enough to crack the affair.

Anything from your wife yet?

I wish I could give you some advice on this.

I just do know that someone here is very good on "Reverse Babbling"!!!! (this explains how to talk to a "fogged up" WS!") Ya, they even have their own language. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Try to look for the thread that explains this. It's great!!!! or you might want to go to "Recovery" (or is it in Gereral Questions....hmmmm, I'm not sure) and ask about "Reverse Babbling"!

I think there's a thread written by "going_crazy about this.

It's late here, so I haven't got the time.

Take care and keep us tuned in! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

bb

I believe it's Orchid that speaks reverse babblese.

When they fog talk to you, you just agree with them...

She says, "I can't believe you did that."

You say, "I know, I never thought I'd be in this position."


She says, "It was the wrong thing to do"

You say, "You're right, this situation is full of wrong decisions."

She says, "This is going to cause all kinds of problems."

You say, "You're right, this is a problem."


Leaving if you have to is a good idea, not to punish her, but if she goes off on you, set your boundary that for the sake of hte M and saying something you may regret, you will leave.

Do NOT tell her what the OMW said in the heat of the moment...but DO tell her that you and the OMW sat and talked and you found out some interesting things. If your WW asks "What?" (Of course she will, curiosity killed the cat), you can warn her by saying, "I'm not sure you'll believe it coming from me or want to hear it." You can tell her you are worried for her...it puts a seed of doubt in her mind, and she will ask you more later...that's how you will know the A is ending, when she wants doubts confirmed...or you can ask her to talk with OMW herself.

Good luck tonight, you did good, and it will pass...

She wants the status quo, and you rocked the boat...

Well, this went about as bad as I could possibly imagine.

WW called me about 3:00pm when she would normally be getting off work. Told me she had to work a couple of hours over. I knew it was a lie and drove to OM's house. Her truck was in his garage. I got out, knocked on the door, demanded they both come out and face me. He never would, after about 10 minutes, she finally came out and said let's go home. I told her on the spot that I had talked with his wife and she knew all about the affair now.

When I got home, my WW was in what I can best describe as a schizophrenic state..did all of the following and then some:

1) told me some of the meanest most hurtful things I have ever heard from anyone in my life

2) threw and broke several small glass items like candles, etc. I simply swept up the mess and continued to ask her to stop so that I didn't have to call the police.

3) Told me that she hated me and that when I touched her it made her want to vomit. Says f***ing the OM is the best decision she ever made and she feels zero remorse.

4) Told me that I have 'ruined her life' by telling OMW about the affair

5) Tore pages out of a bible that was laying on the living room table and threw them at me ...

6) Tried to take her wedding band off and couldn't get it off, went to the garage and tried to take it off with pliers, wire cutters, etc. to the point I though she was going to seriously injure herself...said she would go to the emergency room to get it taken off

7) Told me she was going to commit suicide...I don't really think she was serious at all, however....I hope..

8) Told me she is going in the morning to pawn her engagement ring and file for divorce..

I just kept telling her that I was sorry for any pain she was going through but that I did the right thing in telling the OMW about the affair and that I could not apologize for that.

I kept trying to tell her that I needed to leave, but she threatened to destroy the house if I did. Finally she calmed down enough to say she was going to get something to eat and I left right after she did. She called me about thirty minutes later and sounded much more calm, demanding to know where I was...I finally told her I was at a friend's house...I told her I would be home in a couple of hours when she had cooled off more and could act like an adult...

We both left the house about 6:30 pm..I got home around 9:45 and she was not here...doesn't look like she took so much as a toothbrush with her...all her stuff is here, but she has not shown back up...I know she has to be at work at 6:45 in the morning..I have to assume she is probably at the OM's but I don't have the energy to drive there and check at this point..

I called and left her a message on her cell phone that I was concerned that she was ok because of some of the things she was saying, but no return call..I guess this is the end of the line for this one...if it is, I can live with that...I still stand by what I did by telling the OMW, she had a right to know and it was the right thing for me to do..if my WW really wants a life like that, then we just don't belong together...I wish I had better news to report...but I thank everyone for their advice..I know I did the right thing..

<small>[ November 17, 2004, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Hurting Hoosier ]</small>

HH,

I am so sorry for you and I know how painfull this is.
WS can really find the "right words" to "kill" can't they..........

But..........please don't take her words to heart!!!! (this is important!)

Try to see her as you would a "drug addict". They will do and say things far beyond "reality" just to get their drug. In this situation OM.

Your WS is trying to "shift the guilt". She is trying to make you feel responsible and guilty.

But this is plain and simply NOT TRUE!!!!

Nothing she has done and said displays that she is "happy about her decision!" She is frustrated and insecure and she is "FOGGED UP" completely.

Nothing makes sence to her right now and the only person in the world that will understand her is OM.

Give this time and just "back off". Don't overload her with calls.

You have done Step #1 and it was the right thing to do. OWM has the right to know what is going on.

Don't let yourself be pulled into discussions, at least not right now.
Your wife is going to feel rediculous and embarrasssed about her behaviour within time.

It is now up to you to be the strong one in your "team". Hope that makes sence.......

Your wife doesn't have a clear direction (she's lost track) but you know what you want and it's important for oyu to stay on track.
That means: There is NO place for a third person in a marriage, therefore NO CONTACT!

You don't have to be treated like a doormat either! Set boundaries and make them clear!

Read all you can about Plan A!!!and remember it takes time until you see things changing.

Even though you might think that there is NO hope right now................believe me, there is!

Her behaviour is quit typical and not unusual so hang in there!

Can you talk with Steve Harley?????

bb

Good news!!!

She returned home about midnight last night...still saying she hated me and threw one more thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Then she went to bed. I told her I was sorry that she hated me but that I would not sleep on the terrible couch one more night and I didn't get any sleep the night before so she would have to deal with me laying there beside her.

After laying in bed for about five minutes, she all of a sudden rolled over and asked if I would hold her. I was in shock, but said of course. She then told me that she was so sorry for all the things she said and everything that she has done and that she loves me and wants us to be together...

I told her that was wonderful and that there was nothing in the world I wanted more...then I asked her what happened and where she had been all night...she said she had called the OM and demanded some answers to the things his STBXW had said...he refused to answer her over the phone and demanded to meet her...she said she did and got her questions answered..

He told her he couldn't guarantee he wouldn't sleep with someone else next week if they came along, said he couldn't guarantee he wouldn't cheat on her and did not want any sort of serious relationship...she said she is done with him for good...I told her that's good and that she has everyone of those guarantees here...and a further guarantee that my neglect and allowing the butting in of my mother would never happen again either.

Then, if you can believe it, we made love...it was wonderful and emotional..at least for me and she seemed to be right there with me..

She told me she doesn't know what's wrong with her and why she did such things to hurt me...she says she knows she needs help..(all the women in her family have gone over the edge emotionally between 35 and 40..she's 37). I told her we would make an appt with a good psychiatrist for next week..

I am not sure which event did it, the talk with OMW or my going to his house when she was there last night and calling them out...either way, the glory goes to God for the boldness it took for me to do those things..I would imagine when the OM knew that the gig was up, that his STBXW and all her family now knew and that I knew where he lived he decided to forget about it...seems like this A is cracked, though.

So...if I can believe her...and I sure want to... on to recovery I guess...time for some brutal honesty...

<small>[ November 18, 2004, 05:28 AM: Message edited by: Hurting Hoosier ]</small>

HH,

it's important to think about your health............did WS have "protected" sex with OM???
Make sure that you both go and get checked for this. !!!!!!!!DON'T NEGLECT THIS,IT'S ABOUT YOUR LIFE AND HEALTH!!!!

The next thing I'm going to tell you is to take this slowly...............stick to a Plan and I'd say, it is now Plan A. Read all you can about it and don't educate you wife about it.

This will take time and there are going to be alot of Ups and Downs. Your wife is going to experience "withdrawel" and you might even have to cope with a few more lies and unhonesty. Be aware of that because the addiction of the affair is "amazing" and it does things to people that are "unbelievable". (well I don't have to tell you that, you've experienced it yourself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Stick here in MBers and when you need to vent, come here!!!! Get all the books that are mentioned here and try to get an appoinment with Steve Harley!!! He knows what to do.

Other than that: Live the best you can!

You sound as if you are right on track!! Have confidence in yourself and stay on "your" road as you "know the direction".

Your wife is going to "look up to you" once she is out of the "fog & withdrawel" state. (believe me, she's still in there, even if you don't notice it) She'll be quit mixed up for awhile but within time this will get better.

Take care of yourself and I'm so happy that it went this direction. (even though, it usually goes this way) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

bb