Hey all - it's been about a month or so since I was here last, if you recall I stopped posting regularly after my BS/WW found MB and got in a little "thread fight" with some of y'all over the nature of her A.
She asked me not to post here because she felt MB is a "cult," and I respected her wishes because right now I'm the one trying to make things work out between us. Plus, I started to worry less and less about "our marriage" and more about "my issues" and really haven't had much of a need to post here.
But given how things have been going, I don't think she'd mind me posting a little update.

The update is - well, things are a little better, but somewhat the same.

We're still separated. But, we talk every day, usually it's pretty normal, sometimes sad and crying. But usually we just talk, or watch TV, or drink beers and eat, or something normal. Last night got a little testy and confrontational after I started asking about OM (duh) but that didn't last long and within 20 minutes we were lying on the bed, falling asleep in each other's arms (but still no SF, although she talked about it and said "I think it would still be a bad idea" - oh well that's progress <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

For the next 3 months, she'll be living about 30 miles away from me (up to now she's been around the corner) so I won't see her as much, but we've agreed that we want to keep talking, seeing each other when we can. Then come March 1 she'll move back closer to me into her own place, and I'll be happier for that.
I think she's looking to this move as a way to temporarily but some space between us - just so she can quietly deal with the pain and come out the other side.

She's also still "with" OM - he's now made a few trips out HERE to see her, which killed me of course (I even "ran into" them on the road near our apartment <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ).
And, she's going to be with him for the Thanksgiving holiday - fortunately I'm going home to AZ to see my folks.
But, she also continues to basically say that OM is not the end all/be all and I shouldn't worry about him, and I do trust her and see lots of signs that tell me she's not lying.
One of the reasons she's moving 30 miles away is that she gets to live rent- and bill-free for a few months with her Mom - so that she can pay back the $4000 her OM loaned to her recently <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
But really, I've stopped attaching alot of importance to that relationship, and find myself caring less and less about it, because it's obviously something she feels like she needs to do right now.

She finally said to me - and this is the big breakthrough - that she has stopped trying to un-love me, stopped trying to fall in love with OM and said that eventually she does have to drop him, and stopped pretending that I am anything less than the love of her life.
But that doesn't mean she's ready to take me back, she still has to see me heal and grow and continue on the straight-n-narrow path I've been sticking to. She's giving me a lot more indications that we do possibly have a future together if things go the right way.

Our respective IC's are targeting "narcissism" and "self-esteem issues" as the root causes of my behavior, and finally my IC and I are getting into some dark and untested corners of my psyche to try and root it out, so I'm feeling better.

But most importantly...and TMCM, Weaver, and others will be VERY happy to hear this....

I no longer worry about the future.
And I mean, deep down I no longer stress over whether or not she'll take me back, how she feels about OM, nor do I hang on every good and bad word she says to me. I haven't felt the "will she or won't she" panic in a little while. And I've curtailed alot of the clingy/needy behavior I was exhibiting. I even said to her the other night "if I could wave a wand and make you feel better but it meant I could never speak to you again, I would do it."


So...thanks to everyone here who helped me get to this point. I'm indebted to you all for getting me through a very tough time and helping me find some solace in taking care of myself.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ November 17, 2004, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

My gosh 35 years old, and you are starting on a brand new path. One of integrity, strength and faith in yourself. You are becoming a man to be proud of!

Got your shades??? Cus the future sure is looking bright! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> My gosh 35 years old, and you are starting on a brand new path. One of integrity, strength and faith in yourself. You are becoming a man to be proud of!

Got your shades??? Cus the future sure is looking bright! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">thanks Weaver!

And hey, I still haven't given up on that song I'm writing based on your sig...actually started recording some of the instruments last week, I'll post it here when I'm done!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hopefully, I'll have a life by then...

But will check back for that song!

VM:

I made this up 2day, and I'm going 2 live by it:

"If you can't say anything at all, don't say anything nice."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

All seriousness aside, I agree that it's good 2 hear YOU are doing well. I can't say anthing at all re your W, though... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
But most importantly...and TMCM, Weaver, and others will be VERY happy to hear this....

I no longer worry about the future.
And I mean, deep down I no longer stress over whether or not she'll take me back, how she feels about OM, nor do I hang on every good and bad word she says to me. I haven't felt the "will she or won't she" panic in a little while. And I've curtailed alot of the clingy/needy behavior I was exhibiting. I even said to her the other night "if I could wave a wand and make you feel better but it meant I could never speak to you again, I would do it."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was thinking the other day about you and I'm very glad that you are doing much better. It seems that you have achieved some significant amount of emotional detachment from your WW which will serve you well no matter what happens to your marriage. I would like to recommend that you seriously consider to start making yourself a little less available to your WW for further emotional detachment from her. Remember that a marriage can only work if BOTH spouses are on the same page and your WW is nowhere near that like you are. The worst thing you can do is take her back with her making all the rules that will only benefit her. If there is any hope for your marriage to be rebuilt, she will have to get serious about ending her affair, have NC with the OM forever, and adhering to the MB principles. These should be deal breakers otherwise you will only be setting yourself up for a false recovery.

TMCM!
Good to hear from you my friend...

We are automatically going to slip into more of a detached mode in the next few weeks.
I'm spending lots of time with her this week as I help her prepare to move out of our apartment, but come Tuesday I will be flying to AZ to see my family and the next day she flies to the East Coast to be with OM for Thanksgiving.

When we return, she will be living 30 miles away from me, effectively nixing all the opportunities I had to spend time with her when she was living in our shared apartment only a few blocks from where I currently live & work. The distance, and where she's going to be living (in a tiny floathome with her Mom), will make it impossible for her to ask me to come over, or for me to drop by.
We still plan to see each other and talk frequently, but any "hanging out" will have to be done at my new place, which is OK but not exactly the most private place since I have 2 roommates.

That situation will last for a few months while she pays off debts (her OM loaned her $4000 to get out of debt and she is paying him back over 3 months...part of the reason she's moving in with Mom, to save $$ on rent/bills so she can get rid of that debt, she HATES owing money to people).
By March 1 she will be moving back closer to where I am, and seems to have settled on apartments that are literally a stone's throw from where I live now.

So...the detachment and distance will be geographical and automatic for at least a few months.

As for OM - I really do get the feeling, from her words & actions, that that relationship is on the out. I do think that she's more hesitant to end it now since she owes him this money than she would be if she didn't.

As I said before, she has given up on falling in love with him, having any hope for them being together, and has resigned herself to being in love with me and missing me. I think maybe she wants time to see if she can kill that off too, although I'm not sure if she really wants to. Many things she has said and done lately basically seem to hint at "I don't want to give up on you just yet."

So...progress IS being made. Thanks for your concern!

Vnus: And, she's going to be with him for the Thanksgiving holiday - fortunately I'm going home to AZ to see my folks.

Vnus and others, I'm still in plan A and a newbie as you can tell by my Sig. Vnus I don't know your whole story and by no means an expert, but I'm confused. In reading SAA is states that in order for recovery to start there has to be the NC for the WS. Then and only then can the recovery start? Won't allowing her to be with him/his family over the holiday only start you back to square one as far as the recovery goes??? Or are her words truly that sincere?

Native,

No, No, No! Don't follow Vnus's example.

Vnus is a recovering serial cheater, implementing a "Vnus" style Plan A on his WW. Vnus is not in recovery with his WW, she is still having an affair. He is enabling it for some reason which none of us quite understand...but that is okay.


P.S. Native, welcome to MB. Haven't posted to you before. Hope your Plan A is going well!

VM, I put a line based on weaver's sig into a tune too.

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> Native,

No, No, No! Don't follow Vnus's example.

Vnus is a recovering serial cheater, implementing a "Vnus" style Plan A on his WW. Vnus is not in recovery with his WW, she is still having an affair. He is enabling it for some reason which none of us quite understand...but that is okay.


P.S. Native, welcome to MB. Haven't posted to you before. Hope your Plan A is going well! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is true, Native...except...

I'm not sure I agree that I'm ENABLING it...in the sense that I'm encouraging it or making it easier for her to continue...

What I think I'm doing is TOLERATING it as I don't have much choice.

Meaning, she has made it pretty clear that as far as she's concerned, this A is continuing because it's something she "needs to do" and it's "none of my business or concern."

She is able to have this hardline approach, because I believe it's continuing as a direct result of my own serial infidelity - had I never cheated, she would have confessed the A at some point, given him up, and attempted to rebuild right away.

But since I also cheated, she feels justified getting relief from some of her pain by "trying out" a new relationship. She spent a lot of time trying very hard to fall in love with him, to fall out of love with me. She admitted she hasn't been successful.
She has also admitted that they argue often, he's not that compatible with her, and there's really no future there. She even said to me "I know he has to go someday, I shouldn't be with anyone right now."
She has also said I am her true love, we get along more famously than anyone, and that there could be a future for us again if she can trust again and I heal my issues.


Why is she still with him, given all of this?

I don't know. And she won't tell me.

I think part of it is her clinging to whatever shred of validation he gives her - she has said in the past "he makes me feel like I come first." So she allows him to worship her because it makes her feel better about herself. I thought she was stronger than to need that, but I guess not.
He also must give her some modicum of SF that she's not getting from me, too.

I also think part of it is obligation - plane tickets have been bought, money is owed, plans have been made...and to back out now would cause loose ends that have to be tied up.

Plus I think she likes keeping him in the picture to test me - how long will I be nice and loving to her and hopeful of our reconciliation while he is in the picture?
The longer I go without saying "to hell with this" the more dedicated and determined I must really be.

The main gist of the story is this...
She told me not to worry about him. She's said and done MANY things that hint that she knows it's temporary and is no replacement for what we had. And I believe her. So I continue on my track of hopefulness and self-improvement, hoping that her A ends someday soon just for her own sake.

If that is 'enabling' her A, then yes, I guess I am.

Okay I think I have the low down on Vnus's situation, and I guess it makes some sense. Like I said I've been trying to do the Plan A, however I have a feeling that the A is still going on. I haven't had anything positive yet, but I'm hoping that will change soon.

What I think I'm doing is TOLERATING it as I don't have much choice.

Oh you've got a choice all right. Can you say "cake eater"?

You are harming your own personal recovery and growth by your willingness to take part in adultry, your WW's.

You are kidding yourself if you think this is your fault by having had affairs yourself. And many have pointed this out. She is having an affair because she wants to, not because you hurt her.

Your wife is playing a game and being incredibly cruel to both you and her affair partner. And you are enabling it by showing her she can have you at any cost.

You did not forfeit your right to pride and to expect integrity from your WW, because of your past problems.

I would bet good money that if you went into Plan B, your WW would be all over you like a bee on honey, and her affair partner would be history.

The question is have you grown enough, have you come far enough that you are affair proof yourself. I do not see how your self-esteem can be built (which was probably a cause of your serial cheating tendencies) by allowing this type of treatment to you.

And your WW is not justified in having an affair regardless of what she says. And it is YOUR business because it is your life, your marriage and your future.

There is a greek story of a guy who had done wrong and was visited upon by three little nasties. After years of stumbling through the desert paying for his wrong doing, he finally raised his head to the Gods and said "Enough, I have paid for my wrongs, forgive me, release me" And then he was visited upon by the three little nicies and was blessed for all his days remaining. The story goes that he could have simply asked for forgiveness at the beginning and not gone through untold suffering for as long as he did.

Now I can't remember the greek names but you must know the story. (wish I could find that book)

When are you going to have paid enough for your wrong doings?

Weaver:

I do understand what you're saying, and YES she is being a major cake-eater.

However...

Isn't part of Plan A to not be a doormat, but to also be tolerant and let the A die it's own death, by "negotiating" its end?

I feel like I am negotiating the end of the A by showing her what she's missing, just like Plan A says. I am definitely in the red with that right now, obviously, because of my sins, but I think she's seeing the improvement.
I feel like my ability to stick to my guns these past few months is a major reason why she's where she is now.
My Plan A doesn't allow me to make gentle demands. My Plan A only allows me to show her love and show her that we can love again, but only if she can trust me again.

I'm more interested in demonstrating to her my growth than I am in trying to convince her to give him up.
She will give him up, with or without me, for reasons unrelated to me. But she will be more likely to give him up if she looks at me and says "yeah, this is the man for me, mistakes or no, flaws or no, and I think I can take him back when he has healed."


Yes, if I went Plan B perhaps things would change. I don't think she'd be "all over me" because OM or no OM she still doesn't trust me as far as she can throw me. But she's trying to, and she's starting to believe more and more.
I don't feel like I'm done yet with Plan A, especially since my Plan A is colored by my own indiscretions and trying to demonstrate my ability to change to her. I'm not ready for Plan B. Give me a few more months of this, and perhaps I will be.

Also - her A with OM isn't as "punishing" as it may seem, in the sense that she's very careful to keep it hidden from me - yes, I know it's going on, but she doesn't talk about him, doesn't tell me when she's seeing him until the last minute, and basically leaves the whole subject of OM completely alone.

It only punishes me when I think about it first, or when she's with him. And even then, I have come very far in telling myself "this is what she thinks she has to do" and "let things heal and grow and see where they end up."
I also remember that I have no respect for what she's doing, and that makes it easier too.

As for my self-esteem...I need to have stronger self-esteem whether I ever say one word to her again or not. So I'm not doing this for her, and I'm not relying on her to help boost my self-esteem, I'm doing that on my own.

Basically, I guess what I'm saying is...

She can do what she wants. I have to do what I need to do. Ultimately I hope we can work it out and be together again. I think she wants to believe in me again. And I think my growth and dedication will be the single most effective way to convince her that it's OK for her to "take the chance" on me again.

Honestly....OM is somewhat irrelevant to all of that. He's her temporary, and not terribly effective, distraction. And nothing more. Even she has said as much to me. And I know that for all my faults, and for all his successes, he's still not ME, and she loves ME.

Yes, you could be right. Plan A is to negotiate the end of the affair and to show the changes in one that may have contributed to the state of the marriage pre-affair.

My concern is the fact that you seem to feel like you caused the affair, and she seems to feel justified in it by this same "fact".

I'm sure you know what you are doing and that any improvements are a good thing.

Coffeman, 2long and the others are way more knowledgable than I regarding the dynamics of marriage rebuilding.

However, I am knowledgeable of GUILT and what that does to a person, real or perceived. My dad was a Vietnam war hero, (highly decorated air rescue pilot) and also had studied for four years to be a minister before vietnam.

He died a broken alcoholic, unable to forgive himself or God for the horrors of the two years he spent in Nam.


When I see someone, excepting blame for what is not theirs it speaks to me, because I have lived it first hand. This affair of your WW's is not yours to own, it is hers.

Don't let that keep you in Plan A longer than what is recommended by MB.

thanks Weaver -

Let me be perfectly clear...I BLAME HER FOR HER AFFAIR.
She says it was the wrong way to deal with the problems in our M that were unrelated to my infidelity (obviously, since she didn't know about my A's until after she already had hers).
But, she also doesn't apologize for it in light of my A's - she basically says "it was the wrong thing to do but I'm glad I did it because look what a pig you turned out to be."

Hypocritical? Absolutely.
Will she have to change that viewpoint if we ever work things out? Without a doubt.
I will NEVER go back to her as long as she doesn't see that her entire A was a bad idea. And I'll have no problem with that, because then the choice will be hers and not mine, the M will end because of her and not me.

No, I don't blame myself for her A, even though her dissatisfaction with me was at the root of starting it.

I will say this one thing I left out before re: the whole idea of going Plan B...

She didn't admit to me that she still loves me, isn't in love with him, and still wants to be with me...
Until I basically said "why do I keep trying? I've been replaced, and I need to accept that and move on."
The minute I look like I'm giving up on her, she DOES seem to come around a little. But I'm not ready to abandon her in a Plan B, I don't think that would work right now.
And she is much more communicative with me immediately after seeing OM.

And...she was on a trip for the last few weeks trying to label me as a Narcissist, trying to shoehorn me into a psychological description that basically painted me as hopeless, so that she could discard me and move on.
It didn't work, obviously, since I'm not a horribly defective clinical case.

And...
She has been "lying" to her IC this whole time. She didn't tell him that she was still in love with me until just last week, and even then, only when I demanded that she do so or I would tell him myself.

So...do I have full faith and credit in her? NOPE. But she is further behind me on the recovery curve, and is the more devastated of the two of us, so I have to cut her some slack for right now.

I'm just glad she's stopped trying to hate me, stopped trying to deny her love for me, stopped trying to FORCE the future.

If months pass as we both heal and grow and one of us realizes that either we a) are being crazy for staying apart, or b) being crazy for thinking it will ever work again, then at least we can walk away confident that we tried.

<small>[ November 18, 2004, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>