The Short Version:
LBS (me) 44
WW 41
Married 21 years, together 24 years, no children
EA for the last year, PA started 2/04
MLC? Depression? LOTS of symptoms.
Confronted 3/04

They work together; she promised "business contact only" (my mistake to let that happen)

4/04: WW said to me "You're the most wonderful man in the world."
4/04: WW said to me "I think we're gonna be ok "
5/04: WW said to me "I love you, I really love you."
6/04: WW said to me "I love you but I'm not in love with you" etc.
6/04: WW said to me "I think I need to leave."

6/04-9/04: Ambivalence/rage/hatred/lying/etc. Pure Hell.
7/04-8/04: Joint counseling (Most profound thing MC had to say: "This is very complicated")
10/4/04: WW moved out

Day before she left, WW said to me: "I'm saying to myself 'why am I doing this?'"
On moving day, WW said to me: "I can't work on the relationship when I'm here."
and "I love you like I should love a husband I've been with for 24 years."

Since moving out, she's contacted me by phone/email many times, often for no apparent reason.
I essentially "went dark" after she moved out.

It appeared OM essentially out of picture, other than obvious contact at work.

11/12: W went off on a long weekend (Fri-Sun) with OM. She heard that I was worried about her, and
called me late Fri afternoon. She said it was uncomfortable talking to me when she was with OM.
Told her what she was doing was wrong, and asked her what her plan was. She said "I don't have a plan."
Asked her if friends/co-workers STILL don't know about her relationship with OM.
She said they do NOT know (and is afraid that I will tell them).

11/15: W called/emailed me four times. First call was "to see how you're doing."

11/17: I called W's closest friend at work, exposed EA/PA. Friend "had no idea" about EA/PA.
This friend helped W move into W's apartment! If she doesn't know about it, no one does!

11/18: Emailed W's boss (he is also OM's boss; president), exposed EA/PA.

Boss's response:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
tqt,

I am very sorry about all of this. Learned just a few months ago. I like all 3 people involved, you included.

I am not sure what role I am to play in private lives of coworkers....or what influence I would or should have.
Perhaps you could answer a couple questions for me while I think about this:

Was under impression that the relationship between the 2 had ended. Are you quite certain it is continuing?
Is (W) aware you are contacting me? Are you willing to have me share your email with (W)?

Take care of yourself

I'm leaving in just a few minutes..and will not be back in office until Monday.

(Boss)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My reply:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(Boss),

I appreciate your reply. I also appreciate the fact that I put you in an awkward position, for which I apologize.

Yes, unfortunately I'm absolutely certain that it is continuing. (W) does not know that I had any intention to contact you.

To be honest, I'm not sure of the best way to handle this, and since you'll be out of the office until Monday, perhaps it's best to not share the email with (W) at this time.

I'll think things through over the weekend, and get my thoughts to you on Monday. Hopefully that's ok with you.

Thanks again,

tqt
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My questions to people who are wiser than me:

(1) Any ideas on how to best handle this exposure/email/boss situation??

(2) I may be seeing her tomorrow, for first time in weeks. (She has an all-day meeting (legit), and is dropping off our two dogs to run in the yard for the day.) At this point, I'm completely confused about who/how I should "be" to/with her!
(I'd like to just be myself, but... not sure if I should be <CAN be?>, and that sucks...)

I've been thru 10 months of hell, and I think I feel myself starting to give up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

Thanks for your help,

tqt

What kind of Plan A did you do? Have you identified all the things you did wrong to help create the poor marital environment that was her excuse for the affair? Have you fixed them? Has she acknowledged your fixes - or at least noticed?

If you did these things adequately, you should go immediately into Plan B.

Write the Plan B letter right away, send both her and OM a copy and consider sending a copy to her boss since you already involved him via exposure. You can also forget the boss for now if you choose. It's clear he/she won't do anything and the fact he/she knows is enough. The point here is not so much what others can do to end the affair, it's the removal of secrecy. To this end, you should not prevent him/her from revealing this to your wife - in fact, "exposure" doesn't happen until SHE knows others know. Understand?

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
What kind of Plan A did you do? Have you identified all the things you did wrong to help create the poor marital environment that was her excuse for the affair? Have you fixed them? Has she acknowledged your fixes - or at least noticed?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didn't find MB until too late, so I never had a Plan A, per se. I did follow many of the principles -- as much as I could under the circumstances (her extreme rage, hostility, etc).
I believe the environment that led to her excuse for the affair was:
A few years ago I became wrapped up in my work, and neglected to keep her "entertained." I believe she had trouble dealing with her father's accidental death, had trouble with her 40th birthday looming in the near future, and did not have enough things going on in her life to keep herself busy. Bottom line is, I think she became bored - with me, with herself, with our marriage. I've been willing to accept my share of the responsibility all along; it's just been impossible to get any consistent answers from her as to what the problems were. (Since I discovered the A, she's done a good job at rewriting our marital history.)

I also believe that she KNOWS that we didn't have any problems that couldn't be "fixed" quite easily, and she's admitted to "never really trying" in our marriage.
I truly believe that, before finally moving out, she was dealing with a tremendous load of guilt that she could not resolve. That, combined with her huge addiction to this guy... it was like she knew the only way to get away from all the pain was to physically leave.

Sorry to ramble, but, I guess I don't have a good answer to your question!

But yes, I do understand everything that you said.

I just came across this, written by redhat on another post (not mine):


"It is very dangerous not filling ENs w/o plan B letter. You could come across as giving up on M."


If I've essentially gone dark since she left, is it possible that she thinks I have given up?
I've been wondering for several weeks now (more like fantasizing) how she might respond to some new "I have not given up" talk.
Now that she's had a little time to think, might she be more receptive to me attempting to meet her EN's? Did she run off with OM last weekend because she had nothing else to do, and/or thought I didn't care anymore???

I'm just chomping at the bit to try ONE MORE RELATIONSHIP TALK with her... it feels like I haven't tried that in a long time.

Maybe it comes down to: there must be situations where MB/Plan A/Plan B concepts might not be the best approach(?)

In anticipation of a swift kick in the butt in response to what I've just written here, I'm getting started on my Plan B letter now...

tqt,

Having "one more relationship talk" will prove to be as life saving as a marooned sailor contemplating sea water as a solution for his thirst. It may taste damn good going down but it is a guaranteed killer very quickly afterward.

My .02 worth...for waht it is worth.

Excellent job exposing...keep it up, does OM have a W, what about WW family.

I would write back to the Boss and explain how you know it is still going on (they went away for the weekend). Also explain your intent on your email is not to get them in trouble but to expose the A so it cannot continue as a secretive fantasy. Bringing it out in the open makes it real.

I would consider doing a hard and fast Plan A, letting her know you still want to save the M. Write her notes, send her flowers, take her out, give her attention, make up for mistakes you ahve made in the M up till now. Apologize for your part in the demise of the M.

Then come up with a plan how long you can continue this (1 week, 1 month, 3 months?) and if she is not swooning and spending less time with OM, then time to switch to Plan B.

I take issue with your statement

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A few years ago I became wrapped up in my work, and neglected to keep her "entertained." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It smacks of sarcasm. The loving attention you neglected to give your W is downplayed by these words. Take responsibility for your part in this...if you do not take responsibility, you are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

That doesn't excuse her having an A, but it also doesn't excuse you to go back to bad habits after she returns.

Read, read, read about Plan A, and follow it. But move to Plan B while you still have some love left and can fall back and wait for the A to disintegrate.

Thanks Cymanca,

I know what you say is true.

I'm just frustrated and feeling helpless as I watch her drift further away...
after 24 years it's hard to deal with.

IF she will spend time with you, and

IF she will let you meet some of her ENs, and

IF you can demonstrate the opposite of her criticisms of the "old" you,

I would agree with still and it may pay to do a REAL Plan A for a couple of weeks.

If not, I'm with Cy and advise you NOT to drink that sea water.

If you choose Plan A - only give her a few weeks, then Plan B and go dark.

Wild card here is what the exposure will do.

WAT

StillHere,
Thanks for your help.

And thanks for pointing out my sarcasm:

"A few years ago I became wrapped up in my work, and neglected to keep her 'entertained.'"

I agree, and I'm embarrassed to have written that. It's in part due to my mood at the moment (very tired, and very frustrated).
Was there a period of time when I wasn't there for her as much as I would've liked to be? Yes. Was it to the point of neglecting her? No, it wasn't, but... I also know that's for her to say, and not me!
Thanks again -- I really do appreciate being kept in check.

I think I do want to try a short Plan A first.
It feels like it would still be a reasonable gamble, given how screwed up my situation has been.

Quick clarification, though...

Exposure should have happened a long time ago. Per my earlier post re: email to her boss, REAL exposure hasn't happened yet. It's sort of on-hold until I figure out what to do next.

I'm trying to figure out where finishing the exposure could/would fit in when I'm trying to start a short, ASAP Plan A(??)

Hope you understand my question!

Thanks everyone...

tqt, I think you should get this affair fully exposed now. Don't delay any longer. StilMakingItHere nailed it well. Do a Plan A for a while and then move onto in Plan B. You don't want to go dark if the last impression on her mind is bad. So work on being the best you can for a while, and THEN go dark.

But none of this changes the need for exposure. Expose to anyone who is key in your lives, such as her family, your family and your friends. You might even want to shake some bushes on the OM's side of the family. If he is married, make this your NEXT CALL!

Hi MelodyLane, and thanks to <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Exposure... her family knows, my family knows, and my friends know. OM left his wife months ago; divorce final or close enough.
That leaves some mutual friends who are also her co-workers. I called her closest friend 2 days ago. I emailed their boss yesterday, but as you've read, that's still unfinished business.

But, a new development, of sorts...

I had to call my wife last evening to find out what time she was dropping off/picking up our dogs today. We haven't had much conversation in several weeks, other than very short logistical calls/emails. As part of my new Short & Sweet Plan A, I took the convo a little further than I would've otherwise. I was lighthearted, cheerful, friendly, caring... within a few short minutes, I could "hear" W's eyes welling up, and a couple minutes later I could hear the tears rolling down her face. I asked her what she was upset about... she said "I'm just not happy" (said that twice). She tried to cheer herself up, and said "I'm just in a funk, that's all." At any rate, the rest of the convo she went between tears and trying to gain her composure, and I tried -- without pushing too hard -- to tell her that I cared, and that I wished she could tell me what it was she was crying about.

I'm back to one of my original "diagnoses" -- some kind of depression. Of course one conversation doesn't = depression, but there's a lot of history that would take me days to explain. Two counselors (her IC and our MC) have suggested depression, but neither one went anywhere with it, and W never got to the point of admitting needing/wanting help.

Back to exposure... In convo last night, W said her friend told her she talked to me, but wouldn't tell her about what. This was the exposure call I made to her friend 2 days ago.
She (AND OM, I'm SURE) are scared to death about the real truth getting around the company.
A HUGE argument FOR exposure.
But, I'm (again/still) VERY worried about my wife after hearing how miserable she sounded last night. I'm just very nervous about doing what I know I should be doing (FULL EXPOSURE), until I can somehow figure out just how down and out my wife is right now.
With or without me and our marriage, she needs to talk to someone. Her well-being has to be my first concern, no matter what.
I'm thinking this morning that I almost HAVE to go with my intuition (and heart) right now, and make absolutely sure that my wife knows that

- I love her, I care about her, I'm here for her, no matter what.
- I'm worried about her, and together can we please get her to talk to someone who can help her sort things out
- (while I'm at it) Tell her I still want to rebuild our marriage, and that I know in my heart we can do it!

Sorry to ramble... thanks for any comments/advice you might have.

tqt, her sad reaction is pretty normal for this stage of the game. She is suffering the death knells of her affair. See, when you expose the affair, you cause great conflict and embarrassment in fantasy land.

Their initial reacion is usually anger and then great sadness. So don't let her sadness avert you from doing what you need to do. You are killing off the affair, don't let up and allow it to revive.

I would still suggest calling the OMW. Often the things that you hear are lies and it is real common to discover that the OP is actually stringing along the spouse and still in contact.

Can I call you Mel? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't think she knows that anyone ELSE knows (yet)! IOW, when she said "I'm just not happy" I don't think it had anything to do w/ exposure.

I'm genuinely concerned about her, BUT, my most recent thought is: you are right, and I will continue w/ exposure, although somewhat carefully along the way.

Just read another of your (I think) posts where someone talked about concentric circles of exposure, and there is another round of W's friends/co-workers that I'll plan on calling this weekend or early next week. I'm very apprehensive about it, but...

I still have to decide what to tell the Boss to do with the email I sent him. He will literally hand my W the email I sent him, if I ask him to.
CAN'T DECIDE if that's digging my own grave!?!
He knows I'm thinking about it and will be contacting him Monday.

Bottom line is, as of right now, wife and OM may be surmising a thing or two at best, but they do NOT know of any exposure.

Regarding your suggestion re: OMW... I called her a couple months ago. She gave me an earfull of how "the two of them deserve each other." They were going thru D proceedings then, and it was supposed to be final by now. Ie. nothing I can accomplish with OM's side --- perhaps other than confronting OM himself, which I've thought about.

Hi tqt,

Glad to hear you are still hanging with us.Hold on and don't let go.This is a long and painful journey.

Just a few things to add in here to the rest of the responses.I would suggest that you tell your boss to let your WW and OM know that he knows about the A and that he is concerned but leave it at that...let it sink in for her.That may be enough "embarrassment" shall we say to make at least a little impact.You know,"Oh great,now the boss knows,who else knows?" and thinking like that by her that may help diffuse the fantasy even more.

Also,I can relate to how you feel about your WW's condition.When my WH and I were going through the A initially,he looked BAD.Really bad.I was worried about his health too(let alone mine).I still don't look like I used to,I have slightly more pronounced dark circles under my eyes,I still feel wiped out a lot and I still have headaches.My WH still looks wiped out too,dark circles and neither of us has smiled much at all since this horrible thing happened.It's par for the course.Adultery/Infidelity is a terribly traumatic event,it takes a huge toll on your body,mind and spirit.Depression is also a common response to going through all this whether it's short or long lived.

Just be as loving and supportive as you can for now.I know it's hard.You have been to he** and it's hard to think of giving to someone who hurt you so badly.When the time comes for the Plan B,we can help you with that too.If you have known about the A since March(3/04) then Plan B is overdue.


O

Hi O!

I'm just too tired right now to do a good job of explaining The Latest Stuff... talked with my W for a good 90 minutes this evening -- after spending 24 years together, it was the first time I've seen her in a month... I'm guess I'm still trying to assimilate the whole thing.

But, it must have put me in a reflective mood, because I just HAVE to say a couple things to you and all the others that have helped me... I think you are One Class Act <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
And I really mean that. Thank You. O, I see the "Divorcing" in your sig. and it just seems out of place... all I can think is... how can anyone (like your H!) not see how good they have it, before it's too late?? In such a short time, so many of you have taken the time to help. I'm truly humbled by it all. Do you guys have any idea just how very much you are appreciated by everyone here?

I'll get some sleep, and first thing tomorrow morning try to explain where I THINK things are.

Thanks again, all.

Highlights from a 90 minute conversation with my WW last evening..........

She arrived to pick up the dogs, and made motions to get the dogs in the car and leave immediately.
I said something like "geez, I haven't seen you for a month, can't you stay for 5 minutes?"
She said "Ok... at least you could offer me a beer or something."


I believe my WW is deeply unhappy, and realizes that she's made a mess of her life, my life, our marriage, even her career.
She dug herself into a hole, and can't see a way out.
She said "nothing I've done can be undone."
She said "I have no plans, no aspirations. I'm not doing anything."

I asked her if she thought about talking to someone who could help her sort things out. (ie. a therapist)
She said she had thought about it. (that's good news)

Somewhere into the conversation, I couldn't stop myself... I hugged her, and she SORT of responded.
And... I also couldn't stop myself... I kissed her. Uh-oh... several times... man oh man I've missed physical touch, kissing her...
and I felt myself UNable to stop myself from seeing just "how far" she'd let me go. (that doesn't sound good, I know)
She did finally say "stop doing that."
From what I just wrote, it sounds like I was out of line/pushing it/etc. but it really wasn't that bad!

She's angry at friend/co-worker because she believes friend is telling others that she left her husband.
She's "embarrassed about it."
She said "I know everyone's going to be saying 'and her husband is such a nice guy.'"

No mention of divorce, or going further with financial matters, etc, or anything even close.

Somewhere along the way I made it clear that I still loved her, and still wanted to rebuild our M.
I ALSO told her that I DO feel myself moving on -- that she gave me no choice -- and that while that was good in a way for me, it also scared me because that's not what I wanted to happen to us (ie. have it be too late if/when she does decide to come back).

Only thing she had to say about our marriage was something about it be "too comfortable." First time I've heard that one.

I told her she could end her R with OM in an instant. She said "I know. I know I could."

Me: Do you feel comfortable with what happened last weekend (she went away w/ OM).
WW: Not a 100%, no. (I believe that means No!)

Me: I don't want to hurt you by saying this, but I think you are being used. (by OM)
WW: (after a few seconds of thought) Maybe you're right.
Me: and that makes me !@^&*% angry!
Five minutes later, on her way out, she blurted out again "I think maybe you're right."

She was getting in her car, and I told her how great it was to see her, and said "Let's talk more often, and I don't mean all this (relationship) stuff. Ok?" She said "Ok."

She called me 10 minutes later on her way home (to talk about some money that she "owes" me).
I told her we didn't need to talk about that now, it could wait, and that way she'd have an excuse to call me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I told her again how great it was to see her, apologized for all the R-talk (she said "that's ok, it has to be done, right?").
Then I said again "let's talk more often... maybe we can figure some of this stuff out." She said "Ok."

----
Can anyone read into all of this and give me an opinion about where her head is at!?

I woke up feeling more confident about things than I have in four months. I know I need to keep that in check.

I guess continue with my new Plan A (which I'm still formulating), and figure out the most tactful way to continue exposure at work.
My natural tendency is to smother her at this point, but think that I have to be careful not to overdo it -- right?

Thanks for listening.

tqt, I think you did a wonderful job! She gave you a wonderful clue here that can help you in how you proceed.


She dug herself into a hole, and can't see a way out.
She said "nothing I've done can be undone."

This is where you can help her come back by showing her a path. And you do that by being consistent in Plan A, letting her know that you can and will forgive her under the right circumstances.

And you also do this by doing everything in your power to end this affair. That would mean further exposure. In your case, I think that exposure to key friends, co-workers and family will be especially effective. She is very worried about this because she knows it will embarrass her. With exposure, she will be forced to justify the unjustifiable and that often enables the WS to see how ridiculous and sleazy they look though the eyes of others.

One word of caution I would give you: avoid bashing the OM. You might have gotten away with it this time, but that is very dangerous ground that can easily backfire on you. I suspect she has been concerned that he is using her so this was a well timed conversation, but I wouldn't take it any farther than that. The last thing you need is for her to be preoccupied with defending him.

I think you did a superb job and should just stick to it, tqt. It sounds like the walls of her affair are crumbling and she is starting to feel "used." I wonder if the OM is having an affair with someone else? Could that be the cause of her depression?

Hi Melody!

I really think that some level of depression was part of the equation that lead to the A in the first place.
She went thru some difficult times when she was younger (parents' adultery/divorce, and some traumatic events related to that). She lost her father about 5 years ago (car accident), and her brother has said that she never seemed happy since then. I also think she was having trouble looking at her 40th birthday looming in the future. With no children, I think she began to wonder what her life was all about. MLC stuff, I guess.
Around the same time period, I wasn't there for her as much as I should've been, due to being wrapped up in my job situation. I think it was just too many factors present all at the same time which set things into a downward spiral (for her, and for our marriage).

So in answer to your question, no, I don't think her depression is caused by OM's affair w/ someone else.

Showing her a path... yes, I think that's what she needs. Whether or not she'll allow herself to take that path is another story! I know she feels so much shame, and guilt, and confusion.
At the same time, she is and always has been VERY hard on herself. So in this situation, I think that just makes her all the more disappointed in herself. There are some serious self-esteem issues that I guess she's always carried with her.
I only realized this when going thru the aftermath of the A over the last 10 months. It was hard for me to understand (the self-esteem problems) because I always had her up on a pedestal and loved her more than anything on the planet!

ANYWAY...

Bashing the OM... I understand what you've said. What I found interesting was that she did not defend him (or their relationship) ONE IOTA the whole time!

"With exposure, she will be forced to justify the unjustifiable and that often enables the WS to see how ridiculous and sleazy they look though the eyes of others."
Yes, and from what she's said, she is already terrified of people knowing. She doesn't even want anyone to know she moved out, let alone the A with a co-worker!

I'll stop rambling now. Thanks Melody!

Plan A, Plan A, Plan A....... and figure out how to complete the exposure without screwing things up!