I personally loved the OW's remark that she did feel badly about sleeping in their bed while M2 was with her dying dad. OH PULLLEEEAAASSSE! And of course the line that totally justifies the A, "Dr. D2 told the OW 3 yrs. ago how bad his M is." So you had to jump right in there, huh OW? As far as I'm concerned they seem like a perfect match. I liked when Dr. Phil described D2 with the snotty, poopy new baby, and that fantasy land would eventually crack. I'm just shaking my head at the utter stupidity!

I have been saying this all along.Mom is one of three BS's(since I have been here) that I have truly felt,based on the sitaution and what was said/done,that needs to file. Dad needs to be out on his gluteals!

This man has so little respect for mom,his children and marriage.He makes jokes at a truly INAPPROPRIATE time! He is WAY past the point of really rejoining mom in any kind of reconciliation.

Simply put,he keeps on doing what he is because he is ALLOWED to.If my kids were treating me disrespectfully,they would be in major trouble.But they would be children and don't necessarily know better just yet.This man is an ADULT.He knows EXACTLY what he is doing.This is one big game to him and the longer he continues to come and go in the household where his three boys are,witnessing all this garbage,the best chance he has of screwing them up as well(which has already begun I am sure).Mom needs to protect them from his BS!

Man,and if that wasn't enough,this homewrecking (OW) person calls in to give information.How DARE she speak to this situation.She is nothing and needs to get lost with her may or may not be dad's child.

UGH! I just don't know how mom stands it.Truly,what is she hoping for? There is NOTHING there to work with,at all IMO.

Ooh this just gets me so frustrated.I have to stop posting to this subject.There really is nothing left to say for them.

O

I haven't posted on this subject because it upsets me.

Do you know what upsets me the most. If D23 had gone NC in the first place when he said he was going to, none of this would be happening. No O/c, no Dr Phil, no drama.

Because, by now he would be over the OW and making his marriage work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Does that surprise you guys, coming from a FWW? Well, I hope it doesn't given the huge "F" at the beginning of WW.

Jen

This is reminding me more and more of the SNL/Thinker saga. As a board, I hope we don't participate in a repeat of that.

The beginning of the SNL/Thinker threads are in the archives. Eerie similarities with the WSs, the BSs, and the MB board.

Take care everyone, of yourselves and each other <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I agree with Octobergirl. It all seems untterly hopeless.

As I am in the UK, I can't see Dr. Phil so I have been piecing it all together from what you guys are saying.

Most of us know how hard it is to cling on when WSs are saying/doing hurtful things. If I was in M2s shoes, I couldn't go on any more.

I believe she needs to let him go. At worse, mom will be free of him and able to move on with her life, healthier and happier. At best, the fantasy will crack and dad will return, fully committed to recovery.

But, if he does snap out of it, is he worthy of mom at all? I don't think so.

So sad. All this for a good f**k. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Graycloud,

I agree 100%. You have hit the nail right on the head. Well said.

I haven't been watching the show..I don't like to be swayed by the possible leading and loaded questions that are intended to draw an audience one way or another [not saying definatively that Dr Phil would do this..just that there is a risk because it IS a TV show, and what they are doing on stage is not therapy]..but I did go and read D23b posts..and sadly what I saw was bullet dodging and more bullet dodging and I have concluded that he would not recognize a genuine expression of remorse if it bit him in the @ss. I think the best that can be expected from him is a reasonable facsimile..his best guess as to what remorse should look like. I would like to hope that this is *fog* related..but I suspect that he is one of the unhappy few who have managed to limp through life without penalty and without really having to develope depth.

At this point in life I don't know what it would take to overcome that rather glaring deficit in his personality. I hope that they are able to reconcile but I do not think it likely..I think he simply is not equipped to handle life at this level.

He is very concerned that all know he is intellectually well endowed..but he has missed the boat yet again..because generally speaking your EQ is a bigger factor in your life than your IQ and he is emotionally retarded to such an extreme I wonder how he ever managed to get married in the first place.

What a sad thing this is..and what a shame that 4 children will suffer because of it.

Noodle

A MB couple appearing on TV isn't covered in TOS, but generally, whole threads devoted to criticizing another MB poster are shut down, especially when the poster(s) are not actively posting on the thread.

Please do your best to keep this discussion respectful, as if you were discoursing with the Dr. Phil participants, Mom & Dad.

LovingBoundaries,

I too was reminded of SNL/Thinker as I was watching all of this unfold.

I often wonder about them...as I took a breather from the board and when I came back...they were gone.

Noodle said:
*** . . . but I did go and read D23b posts..and sadly what I saw was bullet dodging and more bullet dodging and I have concluded that he would not recognize a genuine expression of remorse if it bit him in the @ss. I think the best that can be expected from him is a reasonable facsimile..***

This is practically the textbook definition of Narcississm. Narcs are people who don't really have emotions of their own, though they do become quite good at mimicing them in order to manipulate others and get what they want.

Narcs are empty shells who seek out other people solely to fill them up with attention. The attention can be positive or negative -- much of time, it doesn't really matter.

Narcs don't understand what you're talking about when you say their actions "hurt" you. They see other people not as individuals to be cherished or loved or respected or cared for, but just as supplies of attention and feedback. All that matters is that they get their fix of attention. What else is there in life?

They relate to other people much the way a normal person relates to a TV set. You may like the TV for its entertainment and time-filling properties, but do you really *care* about the TV set itself? Of course not. Why would you?

Mom23Boys, if this sounds familiar to you -- or to anyone else -- please do a Google search on "narcississm." You will be astounded at what you find. I think a lot of BSs here are dealing with narcs.

By the way, one example of a famous narc is convicted murderer Scott Peterson. He's the practically the poster boy for narcississm.

Mulan

I cannot watch the show. I am too close to the subject matter....

I must say, ya'll, tho....please try to temper your comments for/about her a little right now. She is hurting in ways most will never imagine compounded with her daddy's illness. She is having to take baby steps in her feelings.

Mom doesn't have time to post...but I do know she prints out posts to read while she's sitting with her father.

Be gentle. Please.

I love you, M23B.

I'm reading! Thank you! Just dont have much to say at this point, cuz unfortunately everything everyone says is absolutely true <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> and I am starting to realize it...

Sadly enough, Ed did admit the other night that he may be a narcissist...

ONe thing that he does alot is say something, then deny he said it the next day...always has done that! I'm ok though...Thanks to everyone here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by momto3boys:

Sadly enough, Ed did admit the other night that he may be a narcissist...

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is one thing Ed and I agree on.

Pep

Hi Mom,

I don’t think I've ever posted to you, but I've followed your story... H & I watched your show last night. We both cried for you.

My 2cents: That man is seething with anger and hatred. Now it's directed at you. He is beyond cruel while playing the confused victim. Narcissistic, indeed. Phil said it; he’s got loads of emotional problems. It would take years for him to get his act together, and that’s with great effort on his part. And he’s not going to do it.

He doesn’t want to quit his high paying job at the NH to avoid contact with OW? Great. As my hero Kelly Bundy says: Dr.’s make great ex-Husband’s.

I’d find the best lawyer his money could afford and say, ‘make it happen’. Do it quick before OW moves out to create high living expenses, for the court documents. Before OC is born. Grieve; then go enjoy your life. Your children need you, you have lots to give. I’m sure others think you’re something special. This man is cruel. Again, just my 2cents, I just had to say it. Please take care - Dru

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Drucilla ]</small>

Even though I registered this year on MB I have been reading for a very long time.

First MOM is NOTHING like "Thinker" Mom is a very independent strong woman.

I agree that Dad seemed "to careless" on stage and in home video (during arguements) Dad has a very different sense a humor (notice MOM did not respond to his comments like the audience did)
I myself make jokes when my life is turned upside down NOW I understand this is no joke
But some people do respond this way (I am one)

No I am not making excuses for Dad he definantly needs to get his head out of his butt (I hope I can say that).

BIJ
Dad knows he was not speaking for "other WS" I believe the comment he made was he was taking the national digs DR Phil was dishing for all WS's Not that he was representing them.

Also when I asked about your situation you never answered me (I could not understand why you triggered on MOMs threads)
well I did a search and read your story. I now understand. Dad is were your H was while your H was living with his mother.
The problem here is that MOM and DAD have 3 high needs children (requiring medications) they have NO family NONE in the area that they live.
Dads family lives on the other side of the country. MOM parents are hours away but cannot help do to their health
There are no siblings to help. I myself have tried to help MOM find a Nanny (as did the dr phil show) they live in an area that is just not popular requests for Nanny's PLUS not many want to help with "3" high needs children 1 is hard enough but "3" is the issue.

I have read here that a BS should wait six months before making a life long decision to divorce. Unless there is abuse of course. I imagine when their are 3 children who require extra assistance that could really make the BS really think about how a divorce would effect the kids especially since they are boys.

As far as the tapes you viewed on the Dr. Phil show. They have been taping in Mom and dads home for weeks. Last weeks show was taped weeks ago
yesterday show was taped last week. as far as the tapes they used for the show, they picked and choose scenes that suited Dr. Phils topic of the moment. ALOT they were asked to "reinact" things (fights) that occured after Dday. Thats why it could have appeared that they were "acting". Yes Dr Phil is a good show, BUT remember folks it is Hollywood (downtown to be exact).

YES Mom and Dad have a long road. They are both stubborn and strong. But I guess you have too be to raise 3 strong willed boys.
They also have implemented the "red light" theory Dr Phil suggested and it seems to be working.

Mom has lot on her plate now. Her Mother is very needy of her right now. MOM drives HOURS to go grocery shopping, driving BOTH parents to dr appts, cleaning her parents home, and yes she actually had to go to a funeral home to pick out her fathers casket in preperation for her Fathers impending death (a father to which she has been very close too her whole life).

People have to set priorities in life. YES Mom's family/marriage is a very important issue. BUT I believe Mom's need to be there for her Mother (who is NOT handling her husbands impending death very well and leaning on Mom alot).

Everyone here can sit back and tell Mom that she needs to "kick" dad to the curb but how many of you had friends and family TELL YOU the same?
My XH broke off his Affair on dday dragged me to counceling and work his butt off BUT everyone told me to divorce him. I did eventually but not for his infidelity (other issues).

MOM has to consider alot of issues here when thinking about divorce.
Her sons and how it will affect them.
Also how it will affect her children that they ARE going to loose the ONLY grandfather they have ever known. Then loose their father too?
(remember Dad tends to stay away when out of the home)
The 13+ years she spent with Dad and the life that they built.
How she will ever be able to handle the boys on a daily bases without any help.
There is so much to consider
I personally have encouraged Mom to wait making a decision. She has so much emotional stuff going on right now. She needs to decide her future (and that of her boys) with a clear head, so she can NEVER look back and regret it.
Bottom line too. It is difficult for mom to forget the 13 years she had with DAD does a few months of drama wipeout YEARS?

It hasnt for alot of MB people here. Some only married for a few short years and no children are encourage to stick it out Do the husbands act differently than Dad? Maybe , the difference is we all SAW Dad in the fog on national TV.
seriously how do WS act when confused and all fogged up ? Are they not all selfish? are they not all cocky? are they not all "rewriting history" ? NO ? so Dad is different and Mom should just divorce him?

Mom should do what Mom wants too when she is strong enough to make a lifelong decision for her boys and throw away the 13+ she has spent with Dad. I think she first needs to be there for her parents and deal with this when it's time. By the way Dad has been taking care of his Boys while Mom is with her father (no nanny)
and he is still running his practice. He is stepping up to the plate, not fast enough for us here but how long did it take everyones spouses to come out of the "fog" ? is there a timeline?
is 6 weeks the time frame because thats when one MBers WH did?

I think it took alot of courage for both Mom and DAD to go one national TV. Too me the risks Dad took professionally spoke volumes too me that he is interested in saving his family. I have told Mom I would be an advocate to the "dump the Dad" cause if he had not done that. My H would have never done that, How many of YOUR husbands would go on national TV?

I am here for Mom and Dad period. If they want to divorce I am there for them. If they want to try and rebuild still there.
SOM

Excellent post SOM!

It seems like almost every WS has narcissistic tendencies while they are in the fog...is he still like this when he's out? That's a good question.

I'm rooting for them...it did take real guts to go on national TV and to have their life opened for every person watching to judge and criticize. They are strong people.

What do you need Mom and Dad from us?

BTW, my FWH thought they were actors...not me...that just speaks to our situation right now (he is unique, no one else ever cheated, blah, blah, blah...)

Momto3boys,

I haven't posted to you before but I have been following your story and watched your Dr. Phil shows. My heart is going out to your whole family. This is an awful situation and I just wanted to let you know that somebody else is out there praying for healing and reconcilliation. My prayers also go out to your mom and dad in his final days.

I know what it is like to live with a spouse who is selfish and feels entitled to anything his heart desires even if it means destroying the person he vowed to love forever. He has reformed and things have worked out for us. So it is possible but it took a major tragedy for the miracle of it to happen. I just hope and pray it doesn't take that to wake Dad2 up.

My thoughts are with you. VL/Jodi

I am new and didn't see the Dr. Phil show. As I was reading some of the reactions, my heart just went out to Mom23boys. I am rooting for you and hope your marriage can recover. It took a lot of courage for both of you to go on TV with your story. God bless you. I am sure that others have learned from your situation.

Be well,
Tiggy

Dearest Mom23boys,

SOM wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Mom has lot on her plate now. Her Mother is very needy of her right now. MOM drives HOURS to go grocery shopping, driving BOTH parents to dr appts, cleaning her parents home, and yes she actually had to go to a funeral home to pick out her fathers casket in preperation for her Fathers impending death (a father to which she has been very close too her whole life). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mom along with the above quote from SOM if I were "your good friend" would have added: If you can do ALL this M23B's.....You are a very strong woman!!! If you can do all this, you can kick Dr. H to the curb!!! You have proven your strong and although M is sacred to YOU and to me personally, It would be impossible to have a M with a man such as your H. He is out and out abusive and so involved in SELF there is no room for you!! or the OW for that matter~~~she will find that out the hard way too!!! I would tell you your STRONG girl!! get the lawyer and take back YOUR life!!

Blessings,
Atruheart

Excellent post SOM! You said a lot of what I wanted to say, but I couldn't put it into words like you did.

SOM said:
"First MOM is NOTHING like "Thinker" Mom is a very independent strong woman."

I wasn't comparing the individuals themselves--I was (trying to) point out that I saw similarities in how the boards were being used by everyone (the WS, the BS, Us, and the Moderators) who are involved the threads.

Dad2 and Mom2 are no better and are no worse than any other WS or BS who comes here to find help in ending an affair and recovering a marriage. (Sorry Dad2, you really are more typical than you seem to realize. But remember, too, that there have been many WSs on these boards who also learned that they were typical during their affairs--and they went on to recover and rebuild awesome, exciting, passion-filled marriages that were the envy of those who knew them in their real lives. They were typical when they got here, but they and their marriages were elite when they left. Some of those FWSs are still here helping others--talk to them if you want to learn how to go from typical to elite Dad2, cmon you know you want to be elite <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Sorry, I digressed.

During the SNL/Thinker saga, I remember wondering if the TOS could/should be modified to include posting guidelines and boundaries (for everyone who posts, not just the spouses) in the cases where both spouses post and/or read, especially if the affair has not yet reached its end.

I wonder, when couples are here instead of just one of the spouses, if there should be a heads up given to the Moderators so that those threads can be given extra attention for moderating ALL of us as we are learning better ways in our marriages and in all our relationships.

This is a marriage building site. If that's not what people want to do, they will find other sites that better suit their needs. I think it is partly our responsibility, as a board, to see that the Harley's MB principles and strategies are taught and used here. This is a privately owned site for that purpose--it is OPEN to the public at no cost, but it is a privately owned site for learning and applying Harley MB.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Take care everyone

Hi Mom and Dad (2 3 boys) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ,

I was finally able to watch both shows. Taped it for my H at his request. What we shown on that show was just a part of the drama that has been going on. We can tell from the additional posts from both of them here. Also in order to set the stage, events were created for the audience to see a more complete picture. So it was like the audience had the opportunity to relive the horror that has been housed in their home and lives for what seems like an eternity.

Given that as a background, I see a lot of the techniques Dr. Phil uses are what we use here @ MB. This stuff isn't brain surgery (or maybe it s/b <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) so we shouldn't be surprised to see similar descriptive words or techniques used by many who are making valient attempts to clear the fog.

Now onto my 2 cents. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> What I noticed is that when dad was asked a question which he didn't want to answer he showed by looking up. He had to stall a bit to gather his thoughts and this is something the WS does a lot. Also as long as he is continuing to make the BS look worse than the OW (which BTW he has NOT been very successful at), I don't see him able to improve. He will keep himself in this rut.

What Dr Phil has outlined is similar to what we know here. The visual of it does dramatize it to a larger audience and brings out the points in an undeniable fashion.

Whether the OP/WS are beautiful, smart or whatever, has little to do with their A state of mind. IMHO, the A takes over the portion of their mind and hardens their heart where the family love resides and replaces it with a selfish sick infestation that if left unchecked will destroy the WS/OP and all who chose to associate with them.

When the BS realizes their WS is willing to take those lengths and risk it all over and over again, then the need for a strict plan B is critical.

I see dad23boys at a point where my WS was 4-5 years ago. In our case the OW claimed prego 3 x (remember PBR - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ), OW claimed to be carrying a girl (geeze, self determination at 10 weeks - she m/b smart), later on a different prego asked for $100.00 per month for an unproven prego #2), claimed to not ask the WS to leave his family but her skirt and panties kept falling down, OW is clever at manipulating situations and then change personalities from the vixen to the victim.

The whole while the WS can't see that. What he sees and feels is the fog/fantasy. Has feelings for what he perceives as a victim. Except the OW is a victim by choice. Take a look at the OWs (any OW for that matter), take a look at their lives, what do you see? A person who repeatedly goes from the vixen to victim mode over and over again. Some are smart enough to see it from a distance and run, others in their attempts to help get caught up and burned a bit, some of it will leave scars, all will cause pain to varying degress, then there are those who inisit on taking on the pain and sharing it with their family, friends, relatives, workmates, business partners, acquaintances and even some talk show hosts.

Not sure how long or what it will take for dad to wake up but he is still foggy. I do appreciate the fact that they both have taken the time and energy to present this case for more to see what really goes in an A. I don't believe it will prevent all from getting in or out of the fog but even if it helps a few, it w/b worth it.

One of those thankless types of functions where you will never be able to put a verifiable percentage on how many they are helping but I am sure it is. At least there are a few WS and xWs here are watching. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As for mom, i applaud her strong stance. Some may be foolish to think she doesn't appear t/b strong but that's because of opinions based on the 1st show. In the 2nd show and as we all know, mom has done well considering all that is on her plate. Mom, I am proud of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

On that note, it s/b noted that all BS serve their families under very trying circumstances. In regards to a previous BS/WS case of Thinker and SNL, Thinker put forth more effort than many of you may realize. Thinker's dad also died while the A was in full swing. To my knowledge, SNL did not recover but Thinker did move forward. There was a whole lot more on Thinker's plate than she ever posted here.

Which also tells me that even on the Dr. Phil show, often only a part of the issues are being addressed. Understandably since most shows have a timelimit and an agenda. Still much good can be done. What I would like to remind everyone is that when someone tells you their issue, it usually is not the whole thing. Good and bad. Maybe or maybe not intentional. Does that mean we can't help each other? No. Just means that when we do reach out and help, it s/b done for the sane and those who want help, it s/b done with a degree of tact and love. As for the insane and stupid, well it s/b with firmness and love.

Mom, we love you and want to see you succeed. You are undergoing great stress and duress most of which are out of your control. You know the MB mentality, handle what is in your control. Added to that is mine fav saying of praying for a clear mind and a calm heart. Keep up the good work.

Dad, I am going to end this post (as long as it is - LOL!!) to you and let you know that while you have the smarts to be smart, it is sad not to see you use it to save your family. Remember the OW is a vixen and victim. That multi-personality of hers is gonna get real tiring soon. When she runs out of gray cells and you have not more buttons for her to push or pull, you are going to hit the bottom in a hard and devasting way. While we don't have 9 lives, most of us don't get the chances you have been given. Right now you are blowing them. That's the portrait you are showing. Remember the old saying that 'you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.' That means even without the show, some of us could have seen what many have seen on the show.

It is commendable that you are doing this show, don't pass this once in a lifetime opportunity to make it right.

Gambling with your life and that of your family on an unstable personality like the OW is insane at best. Don't let the day you are forced to wake up be too late. Choose the day you wake up back to the land of the sane.

All the best,
L.