I've seen lots of posts over the years about how someone's boyfriend or fiance has cheated on them and they want advice about rebuilding.

The thought crossed my mind...
It's hard enough to recover a marriage after infidelity. Why would anyone in their right mind want to continue in a non-marriage relationship after infidelity? Why would you want to go into the future with all that baggage? Wouldn't it be an indicator that this relationship just isn't meant to be?

I'm not sure I get it. I suppose I'm old fashioned in that I see all pre-marriage relationships as pre-cursors to marriage. I don't see them apart from that context. So, from my viewpoint, I cannot imagine someone wanting to continue into marriage with someone who has already proven that they aren't committed.

I think a marriage is different. It's a more binding social contract and not as easily dissolved. Vows have been exchanged. Children and property get involved. Dissolution can have far reaching consequences. Married people owe it to themselves to try and work past the problem.

Thoughts?

Low

I have always agreed with you. I don't understand why anyone would volunteer for such problems. Why would someone add children and mortgage to an already bad situation? I think that is irresponsible.

If I test drive a car and it has a bad rattle under the engine, I am sure not going to buy it! And that is exactly the purpose of dating, a testing period to see if the other person is worthy marriage material. If the person flunks the test and proves not to be good marriage material, it just seems common sense would dictate moving on.

I agree with you Low. I don't have a lot of time to write. But I just wanted to show that I agree.

I never really had any serious relationships before my H, so I don't really have actual experience with a BF cheating. However, I remember a comment from one of these talk shows, I think it was Oprah. A lady stood up in the audience and was criticizing the wife on stage for staying with the husband. She eluded to a friend of hers whose BF had cheated and was trying to compare the situations. I got so angry. In my opinion, there is no comparison to someone trying to work things out when you are single as opposed to working things out with the man you pledged your life to (good times and bad) and the father of your children. It is worth working on and trying to save if possible. A non-marriage relationship would be easier to let go of.

Just my thoughts this morning.

ng <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LO and ML

Full agreement.

Noodle

I would add that most of the marital affairs we see here are often a result of unmet needs, rather than a character deficiency. I doubt thats the case in a dating situation, where the partners should be bending over backwards to meet each others needs.

But that begs the question, why would you marry someone whose needs you cannot meet?

Even so, in a dating situation, I suspect cheating is not a result of unmet needs but rather a character issue. Both causes, however, tell me that the person should run for their life.

ML

I think it's both in both cases..but in the case of dating..it probably leans more solidly toward character deficit.

What needs ought someone I'm only dating expect me to meet? I can tell you with great certainty that most of them are off limits for me, or were. No SF, DS, FS, ..things that are, in my opinion, inappropriate in a dating relationship. My observation is that a lot of people who struggle in this area..fail to see the difference between being married and dating..regardless of which side of the fence they are operating from.

I agree, if you haven't vowed and committed, run for the hills, you've found a dud.

Similarly, in a marriage situation..it is nearly unheard of for all needs to be met all of the time..and it is even less likely that the WS was not having needs met while the BS was romping and frolicking in the land of fullfillment. I think that there IS a character issue involved for every WS that allowed them to take that step. There is no new temptation under the sun..but everyone is vulnerable in different areas..I think that the WS have a natural weakness somewhere [in my Hs case..moral flexibility] that makes them prone..this is why they are able to crack under relatively little pressure. We all have these areas..but I don't think that they all manifest in the same place.

Noodle

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

In agreement with all.

Good advice, hard to take.

Unfortunately the head and the heart are not always in sync.

There are these little things called hope, faith and love in another, which often gets in the way of intelligent decision making.

And there is also lack of self respect, of knowing you are worth more and can have more from another. Lack of hope, faith and love in oneself.

If you are not in those shoes, it is easy to say what one should do.

I broke up with my ex-fiance, serial cheating BF last Tuesday night AGAIN because I am not seeing any demonstratable change in him, no personal recovery or any of the other things he promised when I took him back the last time.

And yes Noodle, you are right, confusing dating with being married such as SF, living together and buying property together is just plain stupid.

A broken heart is a broken heart, married or not.

Weaver,

Yes, and the reverse is also true..people who are married but act as though they were dating.

Dating, for me at least, was a very freedom filled event. It was fun, I got to know a lot of people, I knew what I wanted, and by the time I committed, I knew what I was doing, and meant it.

People who blur those lines are just an accident waiting to happen..either too invested with a person that they would be better off dropping like a hot potato, or not invested enough..acting as though their wedding was some sort of glorified prom date rather than a distinct committment for LIFE.

I believe in the separation of the two categories..believe in it very strongly.

It didn't save me from experiencing infidelity in my marriage, but it HAS saved me from a lot of regret.

Noodle

[to read makes my speaking english good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ]

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

So, noodle, do you believe these character flaws can be corrected? If not, how do you reconcile continuing a marriage to a person of flawed character?

I agree with most of you folks except in the situation where the betrayer is remorseful and applies the MB principles. Sure the betrayed has every right to dump the betrayer but in such a case, the betrayer may turn out to be the biggest winner by being freed to find another person that is much more forgiving.

Well LO,

It goes a little something like this. I think that everyone has flaws in their character, just not all in the same place. So, just like any other character flaw..acknowledgement and protection are the magic words, or so close I can't tell the difference.

If you know and acknowledge that you have a weakness in some area, and you take action to prevent harm befalling others because of it..to sandbag the weak area if you will..then I don't think it really needs to be an issue.

If it goes unaddressed though..I think you can pretty much expect that it will be an issue over and over until you are all alone with your weakness because everyone else can't take any more fallout. They can't invest in someone who consistently lets them down. Self preservation eventually takes over.

[that's a generic you by the way]

Noodle

Oh, and I notice that all flaws that I can think of are rooted in selfishness.

Moral flexibility [Mr Noodle] = The world revolves around me.

Procrastination [Noodle] = The world revolves around me.

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:
<strong> So, noodle, do you believe these character flaws can be corrected? If not, how do you reconcile continuing a marriage to a person of flawed character? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Low Orbit, I DO think people can change themselves if they choose to. However, folks can't change other people and we see lots of BS' on here who think they can.

I believe this was the case with my current H. He was simply a bad man with a flawed character. Something happened to him, though, that made him sick at himself and he has been a changed man ever since. He chose to change himself and he has.

I think that most of the WS' we see around here do not commit adultery as a matter of character, but as aberration of character resulting from marital problems.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>
Similarly, in a marriage situation..it is nearly unheard of for all needs to be met all of the time..and it is even less likely that the WS was not having needs met while the BS was romping and frolicking in the land of fullfillment. I think that there IS a character issue involved for every WS that allowed them to take that step. There is no new temptation under the sun..but everyone is vulnerable in different areas..I think that the WS have a natural weakness somewhere [in my Hs case..moral flexibility] that makes them prone..this is why they are able to crack under relatively little pressure. We all have these areas..but I don't think that they all manifest in the same place.

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that is exactly right, noodle. I don't think the character issue in question with most [that we see here anyway] is a committment to deceit and adultery. I think it lies elsewhere, as you said. As a vulnerability in one's self image, perhaps. I just don't know.

I just know there are some who commit adultery as a matter of character and there are others who do as an aberration of character.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> In agreement with all.

Good advice, hard to take.

Unfortunately the head and the heart are not always in sync.

There are these little things called hope, faith and love in another, which often gets in the way of intelligent decision making.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">lol, weaver, the head and the heart are probably never in sync! I think what usually gets in the way of intelligent decision making are EMOTIONS. I have learned the hard way, from long hard experience, that my emotions are very misleading. But, the older I get the easier it is to separate heart from head and make sound decisions. [no guarantee, though!]

I am sorry to hear that things are not working out with you and BF. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Sorry, noodle. I perceive your position on character flaws as one offering little hope for those who finds themselves in possession of such "flaws". There are circumstances that can result in me behaving in ways that aren't reflective of "who I am". Adultery is something I did. It's not who I am.

I am willing to acknowledge that a person may have a character weakness. But I know that people can change based on their experience. Do you believe that your H can learn to be less "morally flexible" or will you both always have to put energy into mechanisms to protect yourselves from his "moral flexibility"

If there's a weak spot in the levy, it is better to sand bag it, or is it better to fix it? Is the weak spot there due to a design flaw or is it there because of some trauma? It's never so clear cut as we'd like to think.

Yes, it's good to "know thyself" and take the proper precautions. But there has to understanding and healing as well.

My affair happened at church. There are lots of pretty women at church. The sand bag approach says "Stay away from church to avoid the temptation". The healer says "Why is this a problem for you? Let's change it."

In the context of pre-marriage, there may be the distinct possibility of healing and change, but one has to ask themselves if this dating relationship holds enough promise for the future that one would be willing put forth the energy and bear the scars necessary to do this. Recovery can be VERY painful. There are times during our recovery that the very fact that we were married was all that held us together. I KNOW that if this had been a dating relationship, I would have left. She would have as well.

Oooops. Sorry. I just realized that I'm threadjacking myself...

Low

Melody,

What do you suppose prompted the change in your husband? He just finally grew up? Or did it take an act of God?


And thank you for your kind words Mel.

LO..

As contradictory as it appears..I think both sandbagging and fixing are required.

In your circumstance..going to church was not your weakness..and staying away would not resolve it. If you sought out what TRULY allowed you to take the actions that you did..what part of YOU said "It is ok for me to do this" without even addressing the "because wife did such and such" I think you are well on your way discovering the flaw.

At the same time..while I can take measures to correct my procrastination, I can NOT remove this weakness from my personality. If I let go in this area..I can sink pretty damn low and that isn't going to change. There are no perfect people, just people in control of themselves.

Which brings us full circle..if you are in a dating relationship, and a person demonstates to you that they are NOT in control of their flaws..then run for the hills is the only advice I can offer. I also think that this is the difference between the abberration of charcter and the manifestation of character. Are they USUALLY aware of and in control of this weak area? Or has it gone unaddressed and allowed to wreak havoc in every other way and it just happened to land on the adultery button this time?

Noodle

Low - I'll see ya and raise you one. (I'll get to this point in a minute.)

Premarital infidelity, in my very humble opinion, may be a HUGE blessing in disguise. True colors may come into focus. The "betrayed" can cut losses and move on. Chalk it up as a life experience. I had my heart broken more than once while I was young and before I got married.

But this doesn't mean there isn't a keeper amongst young, immature betrayers. I suspect those who want to "rebuild" include more than the unreasonably love struck. From the vantage point of this forum, it would be hard to accurately identify these for encouragement. Thus, a safe, default approach for us may be to encourage recognition of the huge blessing. That said, as we know, just because pre-marriage had fidelity doesn't mean the marriage will be the same. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I think it might be even MORE of a blessing to experience infidelity - if you have to experience it at all - early in a marriage (rather than pre-marriage) if the betrayed is young and no children have been conceived. At least before marriage the betrayer has a better excuse (depending on the promises already made)! Once married, the infidelity is a bigger crime, may identify more serious flaws, and can be, I think, MORE reason to cut and run if the life investment is still low.

This is why I have on occasion recommended on this forum that a young, non-parent betrayed spouse cut their losses and run. I know this likely ruffles the feathers of others here.

Back to the original topic, let's keep in mind that at its core, infidelity is a betrayal of trust. You don't have to be married to someone to be betrayed by them. I wasn't married to OM, my former friend, whom I asked to lay my son in the ground, yet the betrayal I felt was of epic proportions. So, those seeking help to rebuild pre-marital betrayals are also seeking help to understand and cope with betrayal in general. I'd like to understand better how OM did what he did and why I didn't see it coming. I think we ought to keep this broader concept in mind when posting to the pre-marriage betrayed.

Back to the original topic, let's keep in mind that at its core, infidelity is a betrayal of trust. You don't have to be married to someone to be betrayed by them. I wasn't married to OM, my former friend, whom I asked to lay my son in the ground, yet the betrayal I felt was of epic proportions. So, those seeking help to rebuild pre-marital betrayals are also seeking help to understand and cope with betrayal in general. I'd like to understand better how OM did what he did and why I didn't see it coming. I think we ought to keep this broader concept in mind when posting to the pre-marriage betrayed.

Thank you so much WAT, for this insight. For me this is profound in it's truth. The scar and pain of betrayal run deep, and we all hope to lessen the ongoing pain through understanding. Because in understanding there can be forgiveness, which without our wounds simply do not heal.

Excellent points, WAT.

However, it's almost a good apologetic for "starter" marriages, don't you think? I don't know if anyone actually says to themselves, "I'm going to try this first marriage to learn about marriage so my next will be my REAL marriage." I think a lot of people might behave this way.

Perhaps I am old fashioned...maybe it is a good idea.

Low