Pre-Marriage Infidelity - Marriage Builders® Forums

I've seen lots of posts over the years about how someone's boyfriend or fiance has cheated on them and they want advice about rebuilding.

The thought crossed my mind...
It's hard enough to recover a marriage after infidelity. Why would anyone in their right mind want to continue in a non-marriage relationship after infidelity? Why would you want to go into the future with all that baggage? Wouldn't it be an indicator that this relationship just isn't meant to be?

I'm not sure I get it. I suppose I'm old fashioned in that I see all pre-marriage relationships as pre-cursors to marriage. I don't see them apart from that context. So, from my viewpoint, I cannot imagine someone wanting to continue into marriage with someone who has already proven that they aren't committed.

I think a marriage is different. It's a more binding social contract and not as easily dissolved. Vows have been exchanged. Children and property get involved. Dissolution can have far reaching consequences. Married people owe it to themselves to try and work past the problem.

Thoughts?

Low

I have always agreed with you. I don't understand why anyone would volunteer for such problems. Why would someone add children and mortgage to an already bad situation? I think that is irresponsible.

If I test drive a car and it has a bad rattle under the engine, I am sure not going to buy it! And that is exactly the purpose of dating, a testing period to see if the other person is worthy marriage material. If the person flunks the test and proves not to be good marriage material, it just seems common sense would dictate moving on.

I agree with you Low. I don't have a lot of time to write. But I just wanted to show that I agree.

I never really had any serious relationships before my H, so I don't really have actual experience with a BF cheating. However, I remember a comment from one of these talk shows, I think it was Oprah. A lady stood up in the audience and was criticizing the wife on stage for staying with the husband. She eluded to a friend of hers whose BF had cheated and was trying to compare the situations. I got so angry. In my opinion, there is no comparison to someone trying to work things out when you are single as opposed to working things out with the man you pledged your life to (good times and bad) and the father of your children. It is worth working on and trying to save if possible. A non-marriage relationship would be easier to let go of.

Just my thoughts this morning.

ng <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LO and ML

Full agreement.

Noodle

I would add that most of the marital affairs we see here are often a result of unmet needs, rather than a character deficiency. I doubt thats the case in a dating situation, where the partners should be bending over backwards to meet each others needs.

But that begs the question, why would you marry someone whose needs you cannot meet?

Even so, in a dating situation, I suspect cheating is not a result of unmet needs but rather a character issue. Both causes, however, tell me that the person should run for their life.

ML

I think it's both in both cases..but in the case of dating..it probably leans more solidly toward character deficit.

What needs ought someone I'm only dating expect me to meet? I can tell you with great certainty that most of them are off limits for me, or were. No SF, DS, FS, ..things that are, in my opinion, inappropriate in a dating relationship. My observation is that a lot of people who struggle in this area..fail to see the difference between being married and dating..regardless of which side of the fence they are operating from.

I agree, if you haven't vowed and committed, run for the hills, you've found a dud.

Similarly, in a marriage situation..it is nearly unheard of for all needs to be met all of the time..and it is even less likely that the WS was not having needs met while the BS was romping and frolicking in the land of fullfillment. I think that there IS a character issue involved for every WS that allowed them to take that step. There is no new temptation under the sun..but everyone is vulnerable in different areas..I think that the WS have a natural weakness somewhere [in my Hs case..moral flexibility] that makes them prone..this is why they are able to crack under relatively little pressure. We all have these areas..but I don't think that they all manifest in the same place.

Noodle

[ November 19, 2004, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: noodle ]

In agreement with all.

Good advice, hard to take.

Unfortunately the head and the heart are not always in sync.

There are these little things called hope, faith and love in another, which often gets in the way of intelligent decision making.

And there is also lack of self respect, of knowing you are worth more and can have more from another. Lack of hope, faith and love in oneself.

If you are not in those shoes, it is easy to say what one should do.

I broke up with my ex-fiance, serial cheating BF last Tuesday night AGAIN because I am not seeing any demonstratable change in him, no personal recovery or any of the other things he promised when I took him back the last time.

And yes Noodle, you are right, confusing dating with being married such as SF, living together and buying property together is just plain stupid.

A broken heart is a broken heart, married or not.

Weaver,

Yes, and the reverse is also true..people who are married but act as though they were dating.

Dating, for me at least, was a very freedom filled event. It was fun, I got to know a lot of people, I knew what I wanted, and by the time I committed, I knew what I was doing, and meant it.

People who blur those lines are just an accident waiting to happen..either too invested with a person that they would be better off dropping like a hot potato, or not invested enough..acting as though their wedding was some sort of glorified prom date rather than a distinct committment for LIFE.

I believe in the separation of the two categories..believe in it very strongly.

It didn't save me from experiencing infidelity in my marriage, but it HAS saved me from a lot of regret.

Noodle

[to read makes my speaking english good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ]

[ November 19, 2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: noodle ]

So, noodle, do you believe these character flaws can be corrected? If not, how do you reconcile continuing a marriage to a person of flawed character?

I agree with most of you folks except in the situation where the betrayer is remorseful and applies the MB principles. Sure the betrayed has every right to dump the betrayer but in such a case, the betrayer may turn out to be the biggest winner by being freed to find another person that is much more forgiving.

Well LO,

It goes a little something like this. I think that everyone has flaws in their character, just not all in the same place. So, just like any other character flaw..acknowledgement and protection are the magic words, or so close I can't tell the difference.

If you know and acknowledge that you have a weakness in some area, and you take action to prevent harm befalling others because of it..to sandbag the weak area if you will..then I don't think it really needs to be an issue.

If it goes unaddressed though..I think you can pretty much expect that it will be an issue over and over until you are all alone with your weakness because everyone else can't take any more fallout. They can't invest in someone who consistently lets them down. Self preservation eventually takes over.

[that's a generic you by the way]

Noodle

Oh, and I notice that all flaws that I can think of are rooted in selfishness.

Moral flexibility [Mr Noodle] = The world revolves around me.

Procrastination [Noodle] = The world revolves around me.

[ November 19, 2004, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: noodle ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LowOrbit:
 So, noodle, do you believe these character flaws can be corrected? If not, how do you reconcile continuing a marriage to a person of flawed character? <hr /></blockquote>Low Orbit, I DO think people can change themselves if they choose to. However, folks can't change other people and we see lots of BS' on here who think they can.

I believe this was the case with my current H. He was simply a bad man with a flawed character. Something happened to him, though, that made him sick at himself and he has been a changed man ever since. He chose to change himself and he has.

I think that most of the WS' we see around here do not commit adultery as a matter of character, but as aberration of character resulting from marital problems.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by noodle:

Similarly, in a marriage situation..it is nearly unheard of for all needs to be met all of the time..and it is even less likely that the WS was not having needs met while the BS was romping and frolicking in the land of fullfillment. I think that there IS a character issue involved for every WS that allowed them to take that step. There is no new temptation under the sun..but everyone is vulnerable in different areas..I think that the WS have a natural weakness somewhere [in my Hs case..moral flexibility] that makes them prone..this is why they are able to crack under relatively little pressure. We all have these areas..but I don't think that they all manifest in the same place.

Noodle <hr /></blockquote>I think that is exactly right, noodle. I don't think the character issue in question with most [that we see here anyway] is a committment to deceit and adultery. I think it lies elsewhere, as you said. As a vulnerability in one's self image, perhaps. I just don't know.

I just know there are some who commit adultery as a matter of character and there are others who do as an aberration of character.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by weaver:
 In agreement with all.

Good advice, hard to take.

Unfortunately the head and the heart are not always in sync.

There are these little things called hope, faith and love in another, which often gets in the way of intelligent decision making.

<hr /></blockquote>lol, weaver, the head and the heart are probably never in sync! I think what usually gets in the way of intelligent decision making are EMOTIONS. I have learned the hard way, from long hard experience, that my emotions are very misleading. But, the older I get the easier it is to separate heart from head and make sound decisions. [no guarantee, though!]

I am sorry to hear that things are not working out with you and BF. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

[ November 19, 2004, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

Sorry, noodle. I perceive your position on character flaws as one offering little hope for those who finds themselves in possession of such "flaws". There are circumstances that can result in me behaving in ways that aren't reflective of "who I am". Adultery is something I did. It's not who I am.

I am willing to acknowledge that a person may have a character weakness. But I know that people can change based on their experience. Do you believe that your H can learn to be less "morally flexible" or will you both always have to put energy into mechanisms to protect yourselves from his "moral flexibility"

If there's a weak spot in the levy, it is better to sand bag it, or is it better to fix it? Is the weak spot there due to a design flaw or is it there because of some trauma? It's never so clear cut as we'd like to think.

Yes, it's good to "know thyself" and take the proper precautions. But there has to understanding and healing as well.

My affair happened at church. There are lots of pretty women at church. The sand bag approach says "Stay away from church to avoid the temptation". The healer says "Why is this a problem for you? Let's change it."

In the context of pre-marriage, there may be the distinct possibility of healing and change, but one has to ask themselves if this dating relationship holds enough promise for the future that one would be willing put forth the energy and bear the scars necessary to do this. Recovery can be VERY painful. There are times during our recovery that the very fact that we were married was all that held us together. I KNOW that if this had been a dating relationship, I would have left. She would have as well.

Oooops. Sorry. I just realized that I'm threadjacking myself...

Low

Melody,

What do you suppose prompted the change in your husband? He just finally grew up? Or did it take an act of God?

And thank you for your kind words Mel.

LO..

As contradictory as it appears..I think both sandbagging and fixing are required.

In your circumstance..going to church was not your weakness..and staying away would not resolve it. If you sought out what TRULY allowed you to take the actions that you did..what part of YOU said "It is ok for me to do this" without even addressing the "because wife did such and such" I think you are well on your way discovering the flaw.

At the same time..while I can take measures to correct my procrastination, I can NOT remove this weakness from my personality. If I let go in this area..I can sink pretty damn low and that isn't going to change. There are no perfect people, just people in control of themselves.

Which brings us full circle..if you are in a dating relationship, and a person demonstates to you that they are NOT in control of their flaws..then run for the hills is the only advice I can offer. I also think that this is the difference between the abberration of charcter and the manifestation of character. Are they USUALLY aware of and in control of this weak area? Or has it gone unaddressed and allowed to wreak havoc in every other way and it just happened to land on the adultery button this time?

Noodle

Low - I'll see ya and raise you one. (I'll get to this point in a minute.)

Premarital infidelity, in my very humble opinion, may be a HUGE blessing in disguise. True colors may come into focus. The "betrayed" can cut losses and move on. Chalk it up as a life experience. I had my heart broken more than once while I was young and before I got married.

But this doesn't mean there isn't a keeper amongst young, immature betrayers. I suspect those who want to "rebuild" include more than the unreasonably love struck. From the vantage point of this forum, it would be hard to accurately identify these for encouragement. Thus, a safe, default approach for us may be to encourage recognition of the huge blessing. That said, as we know, just because pre-marriage had fidelity doesn't mean the marriage will be the same. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I think it might be even MORE of a blessing to experience infidelity - if you have to experience it at all - early in a marriage (rather than pre-marriage) if the betrayed is young and no children have been conceived. At least before marriage the betrayer has a better excuse (depending on the promises already made)! Once married, the infidelity is a bigger crime, may identify more serious flaws, and can be, I think, MORE reason to cut and run if the life investment is still low.

This is why I have on occasion recommended on this forum that a young, non-parent betrayed spouse cut their losses and run. I know this likely ruffles the feathers of others here.

Back to the original topic, let's keep in mind that at its core, infidelity is a betrayal of trust. You don't have to be married to someone to be betrayed by them. I wasn't married to OM, my former friend, whom I asked to lay my son in the ground, yet the betrayal I felt was of epic proportions. So, those seeking help to rebuild pre-marital betrayals are also seeking help to understand and cope with betrayal in general. I'd like to understand better how OM did what he did and why I didn't see it coming. I think we ought to keep this broader concept in mind when posting to the pre-marriage betrayed.

Back to the original topic, let's keep in mind that at its core, infidelity is a betrayal of trust. You don't have to be married to someone to be betrayed by them. I wasn't married to OM, my former friend, whom I asked to lay my son in the ground, yet the betrayal I felt was of epic proportions. So, those seeking help to rebuild pre-marital betrayals are also seeking help to understand and cope with betrayal in general. I'd like to understand better how OM did what he did and why I didn't see it coming. I think we ought to keep this broader concept in mind when posting to the pre-marriage betrayed.

Thank you so much WAT, for this insight. For me this is profound in it's truth. The scar and pain of betrayal run deep, and we all hope to lessen the ongoing pain through understanding. Because in understanding there can be forgiveness, which without our wounds simply do not heal.

Excellent points, WAT.

However, it's almost a good apologetic for "starter" marriages, don't you think? I don't know if anyone actually says to themselves, "I'm going to try this first marriage to learn about marriage so my next will be my REAL marriage." I think a lot of people might behave this way.

Perhaps I am old fashioned...maybe it is a good idea.

Low

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by weaver:
 Melody,

What do you suppose prompted the change in your husband? He just finally grew up? Or did it take an act of God?

And thank you for your kind words Mel. <hr /></blockquote>weaver, it was an act of God. Our Christian C asked him one day to say the sinner's prayer with him.

To preface this, you should know that my H is an engineer and a man of few words. He is not given to flights of fancy or emotionalism.

BUT, after this prayer, he told me that it seemed like a "black cloud" was dispersed. He said a huge weight came off his shoulders. He has changed dramatically since then. He tells me he is sickened by his past life and that it is a period of "darkness."

I will agree with a character flaw. Thatâ€™s whether youâ€™re married or â€œdatingâ€. My own personal experience was that my fiancÃ© and I had a huge fight that turned violent (on her part). This happened 20 years ago (when I was 20). I broke up with her and sent her back to her college. I drank all day long and ended up at another girlâ€™s place. I donâ€™t even remember what happened but we had sex (I was TRASHED Drunk). My character at the time was I used that sex as a way to â€œseal the dealâ€ with breaking up with her. I had done this through all of my teen years with others. It was a character flaw, end of discussion. I never â€œcheatedâ€ when I was committed to anyone. However, my fiancÃ© never saw it this way. After I did that to her I realized how wrong I was and I FELT like I cheated. I loved her; I knew she was the one so I lied fully knowing that every person in my fraternity knew what I did the day before.

Flash forward 15 years and weâ€™ve been married 10 years. She cheats on me. She says it is the same thing I did to her. I say theyâ€™re quite different. First, WE BROKE UP. I did not plan and execute a series of lies to betray her like she did to me. We still occasionally argue over this and I have really decided to agree to disagree about it.

Note: We were divorced 1 year ago, reconciling is in â€œprogressâ€

You know I had a feeling it was something like that, but still it gives me goosebumps.

OT:
If you haven't already Mel, check out the series of novels by Jan Karon . They are about this Episcapal (sp) priest in a small town down south. And they are SOOO good. Very funny characters. My brother and his wife turned me onto them, and we all just love them.

MITFORD! A little light reading never hurt anyone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Noodle

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by weaver:
 You know I had a feeling it was something like that, but still it gives me goosebumps.

OT:
If you haven't already Mel, check out the series of novels by Jan Karon . They are about this Episcapal (sp) priest in a small town down south. And they are SOOO good. Very funny characters. My brother and his wife turned me onto them, and we all just love them. <hr /></blockquote>Thanks for the tip!

It gives my H goosebumps, too!

OK- I've just got to chime in here.....with some Radical Honesty...

I've been on this site for over 2 years now. When I got here, I was a textbook BS....the pain was so incredible, and I was sure I was losing my mind.

After some lurking, I posted under another name asking for help dealing with all this infidelity crap.

As soon as I said that we weren't yet married, only engaged while living together....I got the "cut and run" advice. I quit posting.

Came back a bit later and posted under another name (this one), as if we were married and got much help. I will be forever grateful for that help. You guys here saved my sanity til I had taken enuff crap and was strong enough to get out. Finances, living arrangements, everything had to be dis-entangled as if we were married....

You all helped me learn the MB concepts and IMPLEMENT them IN MY SPECIFIC SITUATION. I think I can say that I'm a better person today and have the knowledge(and experience)that proves to me that these concepts WORK.

That's what I wanted to learn. I wasn't here to GET a better mate, I wanted to learn to BE better mate. I just wish I hadn't felt that I had to lie to all you wonderful folks.....and I apologize.

Do I see it as a blessing that he showed his true colors before we married? You betcha.

Helen, I am glad it worked for you, but I am always mystified when folks ask for advice and then get upset when they get some they don't like. Why ask in the first place?

There are very sound reasons for running for your life in a non-committed relationship and just because you didn't want to hear that, doesn't mean it's not the best advice in most cases.

Thanks for revealing yourself, Helen - and confirming part of my rationale (unspoken) why I sometimes advise cut and run to even "married" BSs: Because I'm not so naive to believe they're always telling the truth about being married. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

WAT

Melody-

To cut and run WAS good advice. To be in that exact sitch WAS my responsibility. I get that.

I did want to give him the chance to straighten up and fly right. My point is that you guys did help me do just that.....and the ongoing advice and support helped me WORK on ME.....

gotcha! Good deal, Helen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi all,

I would just like to chime in as someone who has been there. In my case, it happened 6 weeks before our wedding. I had been posting here about 6 months before, in preparation for marriage.

I recieved the cut and run advice. This was unhelpful as I had already made my decision to save us and wanted support in doing this.

We were not in a dating relationship. We were already highly committed, married or not. If I had lied like Helen, I would have got the support I needed.

What we all need to remember is to consider each situation as individual. Cultural differences need to be borne in mind. How would you approach someone from an alternative religion who were not married in the tradtional definition, but equally as committed?

I am not a Christian and so we got married because we wanted to, not because of social pressure. We have lived together for two years. My parents never married because of financial reasons and beliefs, but they have been together for 25 years. If they came here with problems, would you tell them to cut and run?

We should not approach other's dilemmas through our own judgements based on religious/moral beliefs that may not apply to others. These judgements are often far removed from MB principles.

If I had cut and run, I would be miserable and lonely, and I would have lost my (almost) lifelong best friend and the man I truly love. It didn't take much fighting to mend things between us, and now we couldn't be happier.

We have now entered into marriage with open eyes. We now know, unlike before, that we are not invincible. We are working hard to make things even better for now and the future. I am almost glad it happened when it did.

I have huge respect for all you vets and admire what you do here, but please don't place people in boxes when, ultimately, we only ever hear a fraction of their story.

Lots of love. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ks2001, with all due respect, I don't know of any religions or cultures that condone adultery. It is pretty much the same across the board in that aspect.

I can't imagine any father in any culture that would want his daughter to marry a man that was unfaithful to her. As we discussed above, pre-marital infidelity is more often as result of character issues than unmet needs. That means that past behavior is an indicator of future behavior.

You may not have "liked" that advice, but just because you didn't like that advice does not mean it wasn't good advice.

That being said, I very much hope that your marriage works out and wish you the best.

To illustrate:

Faithinme "FIM" .... forgave a pre-marriage infidelity. He "proved" his love to FIM after his cheating on her ... and they married.

Now, she is dealing with her H's 2nd post-marital infidelity ..... only this time, she has 3 children to consider.

Pre-marriage is usually when a prospective life-partner is showing you their VERY BEST SELF, in order to attract an appropriate and desirable mate.

When one does NOT behave his/herself morally pre-marriage (like cheating), and they are STILL accepted as marriagable ... the standard for acceptable moral behavior has been set too low.

My opinion...

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ks2001:
We should not approach other's dilemmas through our own judgements based on religious/moral beliefs that may not apply to others. <hr /></blockquote>Years from now, when you are in your 50's (like I am) ... you will laugh yourself silly when you think about what you wrote here.

The VALUE of religious/moral beliefs is that they are time-proven solid guidelines for living a good life.

A life with no moral guidelines is very chaotic and fraught with many avoidable injuries.

In fact, there is no better way to approach life's dilemmas than understanding and applying our own moral code of ethics.... which come from where?

If not your own code of ethical standards, what rules do you apply when faced with a dilemma? Drawing the short straw? Rolling the dice?

Ask yourself, where do these standards come from? Do standards just fall from the sky?

Pep

And... a RED FLAG in any type of relationship ...
business
friendship
family
dating
pre-marriage
engaged
married
divorced
affair

If the development or the continuation of the relationship depends on YOU disowning your personal code of ethics ...

as Star*Fish likes to say:

"DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!"

Giving away our ethical standards in order to please someone else, is sacrificing our integrity.

Pep

Originally posted by ks2001:

We should not approach other's dilemmas through our own judgements based on religious/moral beliefs that may not apply to others.

If this were true, we'd have no need for police officers or courts (or prisons).

SD

I was not implying that we should condone infidelity! Where did that come from?

I just think we should not judge relationships on whether they are legally married or not, we should look at individual situations rather than putting people in boxes based on generalisations.

Anecdotal evidence is not sufficient.

Pepperband, I find your comments extremely disrespectful and patronising.

Would you all respond to me differently if I lied about my age? I think so.

ks2001,

The label of *affair* or *infidelity* is putting an action or couple into a generalized box.

Without the box they were simply two people who met and enjoyed sex together.

Since you are asserting that married/unmarried is irrelevant and constraining... why not defend this position so that lesser mortals may be brought to your level of enlightenment? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Noodle
[licking her chops in anticipation]

noodle, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Allow me to put my point in the simplest terms possible:

I diagree with the notion that:

Married = Apply MB principles

Non Married = Don't bother, no matter how committed you are, how many kids you've got, any other possible circumstances that might lead someone to want to fight for their relationship.

If someone comes here wanting help saving their relationship, that is what they should get. It is completely their own decision which way they go, and not for us to judge.

I would like to raise the question again: If my parents came here for help, would you tell them to cut and run? (unmarried, together 25 years, 3 kids).

[ November 21, 2004, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: ks2001 ]

We should not approach other's dilemmas through our own judgements based on religious/moral beliefs that may not apply to others.

Pep,

I happen to be in my 40's and see nothing laughable about this statement. In fact I agree with it. Does that make me silly? lacking of intelligence? Un-enlightened?

My company (German owned with over 330,000 employees worldwide)just implemented a new policy where "life partners" receive the same full benefits of legally recognized married partners. The requirements for being considered "life partners"? - a form signed by both partners saying they are life partners which has been notarized, and something such as tax returns or checking account which can show that the couple have been living in the same house for a year. That's it! And it matters not whether the partners are of the opposite or the same sex.

And in this same company infidelity is not tolerated at any level.

Would you say that the decision makers in my company are operating by their own moral belief system? Or looking at what the employees they value need in each of their own individual situations and life styles?

Weaver... I have no idea how to answer you because I do not think your example is relevent to the discussion of where moral judgements arise.

I simply do not understand your point.

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ks2001:
If someone comes here wanting help saving their relationship, that is what they should get. It is completely their own decision which way they go, and not for us to judge.<hr /></blockquote>Am I not free to judge which MB relationships I want to help?

Am I not free to judge which MB relationships I consider MB material?

I judge where I want to spend my energies on MB according to my own standards.

You do it your way, based on your standards... and I do things my way, based on mine.

I am not argueing you out of your standards... I don't share your standards... but, so what? Who cares? It's OK that you think marriage is equivilent to living together. I don't feel that way.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I would like to raise the question again: If my parents came here for help, would you tell them to cut and run? (unmarried, together 25 years, 3 kids).<hr /></blockquote>It depends on what they say and what they want. I might. I might not.

Your parents' relationship of 25 years is NOT comparable with a very young woman dealing with a pre-marital cheating man ... a man who shows his ability to disrespect his potential spouse (or visa versa) very early in the relationship is a very big risk.... According to many many others, not just me.

I apologize for sounding patronizing ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep

Pep,

I guess I thought the discussion was on whether moral judgements regarding what constitutes a marriage should be used when determining who gets help on their relationship and who does not.

But now you are saying that legally married versus not legally married is not the determining factor on who you choose to help and who you choose not to help. Or maybe it is, but you are not saying so, just that you choose to help based on whether you feel their relationship is MB material. Which makes sense to me, why would you waste your time on something you don't believe in, how much help would you be anyway.

I tend to avoid posters that I don't relate to. Mostly this would be because of a personality issue for me, because that is how I am.

Telling someone to cut and run when they are not married and have no children may be the smartest thing to do, but is probably not going to help their situation any.

And infidelty is just as devasting to an unmarried couple living together as it is to a legally married couple. If they were at a place where they could or wanted to cut and run they would not be here.

My point about the company's new policy was one I thought relative to K's statement regarding keeping ones moral/religious beliefs out of the equation when giving people what THEY need as far as help is concerned. Because I thought K's statement was a good one, I was trying to defend it. Maybe the example was not very good, but I liked it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by weaver:
just that you choose to help based on whether you feel their relationship is MB material. Which makes sense to me, why would you waste your time on something you don't believe in, how much help would you be anyway.<hr /></blockquote>Exactly... and I use whatever standard that suits me best... coz I am not getting PAID to do this!!! At work, I have to follow company policy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Telling someone to cut and run when they are not married and have no children may be the smartest thing to do, but is probably not going to help their situation any.<hr /></blockquote>I also tell those being abused to "cut and run".... and they usually don't follow that advice either... but I continue to say it, out of stubborness <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And infidelty is just as devasting to an unmarried couple living together as it is to a legally married couple. If they were at a place where they could or wanted to cut and run they would not be here.<hr /></blockquote>Well... Weaver, I was in a 14-year unmarried relationship that began right out of high-school ... so I speak from experience. When he cheated on me the first time, the counselor told me to "cut and run" ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ... so, I "cut" HER! ~LOL~ .... and I stayed in my relationship which was a huge waste of my time.... and he cheated again, and again.... and one day, after being together 14 years, he said to me, "Something is stopping me from asking you to marry me." ... and it was like a light switched in my head... and I was suddenly stone cold on him... he no longer mattered. I left him, after 14 years ... dated some more, then married my H.

I think it is a HUGE RED FLAG when someone cheats ~before~ marriage or ~early~ marriage. And statistics agree. One of the high risk behaviors written about in "Torn Asunder" ... is a history of previous cheating ....

But, when this happends ~after~ a lengthy monogamous relationship ... I think it is at least worth ONE TRY .... but, for me... there is no second affair followed by recovery. If H cheats again, I walk away. I figure, if he cannot learn from such a huge mistake, I don't want to take that relationship further. But, my H has been a different man since our recovery. AA really helped.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My point about the company's new policy was one I thought relative to K's statement regarding keeping ones moral/religious beliefs out of the equation when giving people what THEY need as far as help is concerned. Because I thought K's statement was a good one, I was trying to defend it. Maybe the example was not very good, but I liked it. <hr /></blockquote>I just don't see how corporate policy applies to how we deal with relationships on MB or personal moral dilemmas. My company also recognizes same-sex partners and domestic partners ... and that's fine with me... but is is not and never will be marriage, which I hold in a higher esteem than other domestic relationships.

Take care,

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ks2001:


I would like to raise the question again: If my parents came here for help, would you tell them to cut and run? (unmarried, together 25 years, 3 kids). <hr /></blockquote>k, I think you have misunderstood the matter entirely. It was never about the morality/immorality of being married versus not married. You think it is one of married vs non-married, but it is not. It is one of committed vs non-committed.

When folks are dating and NOT married, they are not in the same league of committment as a couple who is legally committed. A dating couple obviously is not legally committed.

A couple who is dating is in a testing period. That is the purpose of dating. When one member of the couple lies and cheats, they have failed the test. When one fails the test, that means they are not marriage material.

Common sense would dictate that the other partner move onto the next appropriate candidate as most thinking folks do not want to marry a person who will lie and cheat. If a person will do that during the test period, it more likely a character issue, versus a marital problem.

See the huge difference?

p.s. as for your parents, I would very much help them because they are in a de facto common law marriage.

[ November 21, 2004, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by weaver:

Telling someone to cut and run when they are not married and have no children may be the smartest thing to do, but is probably not going to help their situation any.

<hr /></blockquote>Why not? Aren't we supposed to be giving our best advice to folks who come here rather than telling them what they want to hear? How does it help anyone to not tell them the best advice? Isn't that the point? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

[ November 21, 2004, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

Melody,

As you know, from where I am sitting everyday from the middle of November until the end of May IS a cold day in hell!

Care for a pasty? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

edited to add:

Hey! I just reread (sp) your post, and you edited, you little stinker. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And to reply to your question, yes that is the point but most in that sitch aren't read to really hear it. It falls on deaf ears. Even Pep said she walked out when her IC said that very thing. She had to come to that realization on her own.

But that doesn't really deal with the subject of what is worthy of MB help from the forum. I don't know, for me most said cut and run, but I was determined enough to stick around and keep learning until I got to the place where I could cut and run, if that is what I decided to do. I guess that too boils down to how determined people are to get the help they need from this board. Although I wanted to cut and run from this board many times thinking it was not the place for me, I knew differently in my heart. Because I knew there were skills I needed to learn here in order to have so much as a successful dating experience, let alone marriage. And others, in those same shoes will stick around and get the help they need one way or another, despite the original unwillingness of posters on here to help them.

Okay now I'm babbling. Gotta "run" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Take it easy, Mel

weaver

[ November 21, 2004, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]

bwhahaaaaaaa! you are such a dang yooper! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[I just love that girl! hahaaaa]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by weaver:


Hey! I just reread (sp) your post, and you edited, you little stinker. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
<hr /></blockquote>I edited that about 2 hours ago! You yoopers sure are slow! lol

I do realize that some won't follow our advice to cut and run, but I will still give it if I think it is appropriate. I think it would be irresponsible to do otherwise and goes completely against my grain. Sometimes folks don't want to hear the truth and that is fine. It doesn't mean I will help someone along on a path of destruction just because thats what they want to do.

As far as helping others, we all pick and choose who we want to help based on different criteria. I try to help those who I can relate to and think I can help. And I think everyone pretty much does the same. No one is entitled to help, we are all volunteers here.

What the hell is a "yooper" ???

Pep

A yooper is someone who lives in the UP of Michigan.

Watch the movie "Escanaba in da Moonlight" and you will understand why everyone thinks we are "so slow" as Mel so nicely put it.

I could have wrote that movie myself, using my best friends and neighbors as examples, that's how close to the truth it is.

Sitting in the theater in Escanaba watching it listening to the people in the theater roaring at the tops of their lungs in laughter, made me realize -

that I truly am in hell. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So..what to do [which way do we go George, which way do we go <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ]

I agree that a person whose advice and opinion is solicited ought to give it with both barrels..but at the same time, I also agree that people will not hear something until they are good and ready. There IS a process to be respected..but to give what you strongly suspect to be false hope...or worse to buffer what is OBVIOUSLY a delusion...arg.

I suppose the best thing to do..would be to do as I would in real life..refuse to discuss anything personal unless it is with a close friend whose hand I am willing to hold and for whom I am willing to get dirty. My BBQ [busy body quotient] does not extend so far on a message board in which people are asking for objective [heh, right] advice from a stranger.

Chasing her tail,

Noodle

And Mel, if you are thinking it took me 2.5 hours to think of a comeback to you -

no, not true...my computer froze up and that's the soonest I could reply. Honest! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Noodle,

The more I read you the more I like you, but to be perfectly honest with you, I almost never understand a single word you say. You are an intelectual and I am a "yooper" I guess.

You are going to laugh when I tell you this, but when I read the reply you gave me on October's thread to me - "Amen to that", I was so surprised that you had replied on my thread, I was at a loss as to what to think or how to respond. So I just left it there and went to take a bath, and during that time my daughter sat down at the computer and started reading. She has a little notebook which she uses to write love letters to this boy who happens to hate her guts (she doesn't care, she's only 10) and she had read your post and wrote a reply to you in that notebook. You have to understand that I am on MB a lot and she asks about what I am doing on here and we talk about it some. Well one day a friend was over, and she was teasing me about being on MB and I said "but you don't understand how devastating it is to find out your spouse has been unfaithful. Some times people come on here almost suicidal (sp) and they need all the support they can get." Well my DD was sitting here listening and as we all know "little pictures have big ears", right?

So seeing your post to me and your name, in her notebook she has written this:

Noodle,

Everything is okay. Don't kill yourself. Why is your name Noodle? Do you want to be a Noodlehead or something?

Love, Paiger

She was trying to figure out how to post that to you when I came back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Melody,

What is your definition of a common law marriage?

Just out of interest

Common law marriage is not a matter of person definition. Usually when two people live together as man and wife for a significant period of time the state just declares them married.

Noodle

Hmmmmm.

Standards?

Where do they come from, Pep? Outta the sky?

Some apparently do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mine came from my parents and my life experiences. I remember being lied to by my little brother, as little kids are wont to do. I didn't like it, and in the end, he didn't either because Dad figured it all out and he got spanked. Over time, I acquired the habit of telling the unabashed truth because lying about something makes others feel bad and I didn't want to get spanked. Being dishonest isn't OK. <blockquote>quote:<hr />A handy test for "okay" - if you have to hide something, it isn't.<hr /></blockquote>My personal standard evolved to the universally accepted - amongst civilized humans - Golden Rule.

When applied correctly, it works REALLY well for just about any situation.

It didn't fall from the sky or come from any other mysterious place. It was learned.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
WAT

My H and I lived together as husband and wife for two years before we were married.

Does that mean it could be defined as a common law marriage?

If so, where is your argument, Melody?

Don't you think what is REALLY irresponsible is to make life-changing decisions on behalf of posters when all we have seen is words on a screen? Who are we to tell someone to file a divorce/break off their engagement?

[ November 24, 2004, 04:43 AM: Message edited by: ks2001 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ks2001:
 My H and I lived together as husband and wife for two years before we were married.

Does that mean it could be defined as a common law marriage?

If so, where is your argument, Melody?

Don't you think what is REALLY irresponsible is to make life-changing decisions on behalf of posters when all we have seen is words on a screen? Who are we to tell someone to file a divorce/break off their engagement? <hr /></blockquote>Ks2001,

Common law marriage is defined by law, not by personal opinion. So, I am not sure what I am supposed to argue here. What do you mean exactly?

No one here has the power to make "life changing decisions" for any poster. When a poster comes here asking for advice, that is what they get: that person's opinion. Only the poster has the power to use or not use that advice.

Sometimes the best advice a person may get is to cut and run. And it is up to the reciever to take that advice or not.

And who am I to tell a person to cut and run? The person WHO WAS ASKED FOR MY OPINION, that's who.

[ November 24, 2004, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

KS,

I have been thinking about this topic since the subject first came up and have some thoughts I would like to share.

First of all please don't get stuck in this one issue and leave the board. You survived the infidelity and went on to marry your BF. That is wonderful, you have a success story to share. You are needed because of YOUR views of what is marriage material and how you view the different posters sitch, you can offer a different perspective other than the "cut and run" one.

There are of hundreds of people on this board and not all of them share the same perspective as Pep and Mel regarding when a relationship should be dumped or saved. But in defense of the posters such as Mel which you have taken offense to, I would like to add something that you may not see -

Mel (and others of her integrity caliber) are heroes to me because of the very thing you are challenging - her convictions. Her convictions make her who she is, just as your convictions make you who you are. Neither is better, but each is to be valued.

When I do post something on here about my relationship, I know exactly what Mel would say, "GET RID OF HIM" and that is why I value her. If one day all of a sudden out the blue she completely changed and said "well you know, maybe you could try this..." I would be dissapointed in her, because I value that she is true to herself and to her convictions always. If that changed it would be just one more reason for me to lose faith.

We must learn to value people because of who they are, and to celebrate their convictions even if they differ from our own.

Because of the differences in experience, beliefs, & perspectives of ALL the posters here who help others, we are getting help which we could not pay enough money to get anywhere else in the world. We are getting invaluable FEEDBACK, which even in an IC setting, if you get any at all is limited to that particular counselors scope.

And the learning on this board is not confined to your own thread and the posters who respond to you, a large part of it is reading other threads, experiences and seeing the different problem solving and relationship building techniques used and offered by posters helping others on those other threads. This is mainly how I learn and has helped me with different problems and I didn't even have to post, and such is the way members learn who never even log on.

So please stay and help others, or get the various help you may need to keep your marriage strong.