</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> Melody,

What do you suppose prompted the change in your husband? He just finally grew up? Or did it take an act of God?


And thank you for your kind words Mel. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">weaver, it was an act of God. Our Christian C asked him one day to say the sinner's prayer with him.

To preface this, you should know that my H is an engineer and a man of few words. He is not given to flights of fancy or emotionalism.

BUT, after this prayer, he told me that it seemed like a "black cloud" was dispersed. He said a huge weight came off his shoulders. He has changed dramatically since then. He tells me he is sickened by his past life and that it is a period of "darkness."

I will agree with a character flaw. That’s whether you’re married or “dating”. My own personal experience was that my fiancé and I had a huge fight that turned violent (on her part). This happened 20 years ago (when I was 20). I broke up with her and sent her back to her college. I drank all day long and ended up at another girl’s place. I don’t even remember what happened but we had sex (I was TRASHED Drunk). My character at the time was I used that sex as a way to “seal the deal” with breaking up with her. I had done this through all of my teen years with others. It was a character flaw, end of discussion. I never “cheated” when I was committed to anyone. However, my fiancé never saw it this way. After I did that to her I realized how wrong I was and I FELT like I cheated. I loved her; I knew she was the one so I lied fully knowing that every person in my fraternity knew what I did the day before.

Flash forward 15 years and we’ve been married 10 years. She cheats on me. She says it is the same thing I did to her. I say they’re quite different. First, WE BROKE UP. I did not plan and execute a series of lies to betray her like she did to me. We still occasionally argue over this and I have really decided to agree to disagree about it.

Note: We were divorced 1 year ago, reconciling is in “progress”

You know I had a feeling it was something like that, but still it gives me goosebumps.

OT:
If you haven't already Mel, check out the series of novels by Jan Karon . They are about this Episcapal (sp) priest in a small town down south. And they are SOOO good. Very funny characters. My brother and his wife turned me onto them, and we all just love them.

MITFORD! A little light reading never hurt anyone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> You know I had a feeling it was something like that, but still it gives me goosebumps.

OT:
If you haven't already Mel, check out the series of novels by Jan Karon . They are about this Episcapal (sp) priest in a small town down south. And they are SOOO good. Very funny characters. My brother and his wife turned me onto them, and we all just love them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the tip!

It gives my H goosebumps, too!

OK- I've just got to chime in here.....with some Radical Honesty...

I've been on this site for over 2 years now. When I got here, I was a textbook BS....the pain was so incredible, and I was sure I was losing my mind.

After some lurking, I posted under another name asking for help dealing with all this infidelity crap.

As soon as I said that we weren't yet married, only engaged while living together....I got the "cut and run" advice. I quit posting.

Came back a bit later and posted under another name (this one), as if we were married and got much help. I will be forever grateful for that help. You guys here saved my sanity til I had taken enuff crap and was strong enough to get out. Finances, living arrangements, everything had to be dis-entangled as if we were married....

You all helped me learn the MB concepts and IMPLEMENT them IN MY SPECIFIC SITUATION. I think I can say that I'm a better person today and have the knowledge(and experience)that proves to me that these concepts WORK.

That's what I wanted to learn. I wasn't here to GET a better mate, I wanted to learn to BE better mate. I just wish I hadn't felt that I had to lie to all you wonderful folks.....and I apologize.

Do I see it as a blessing that he showed his true colors before we married? You betcha.

Helen, I am glad it worked for you, but I am always mystified when folks ask for advice and then get upset when they get some they don't like. Why ask in the first place?

There are very sound reasons for running for your life in a non-committed relationship and just because you didn't want to hear that, doesn't mean it's not the best advice in most cases.

Thanks for revealing yourself, Helen - and confirming part of my rationale (unspoken) why I sometimes advise cut and run to even "married" BSs: Because I'm not so naive to believe they're always telling the truth about being married. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

WAT

Melody-

To cut and run WAS good advice. To be in that exact sitch WAS my responsibility. I get that.

I did want to give him the chance to straighten up and fly right. My point is that you guys did help me do just that.....and the ongoing advice and support helped me WORK on ME.....

gotcha! Good deal, Helen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi all,

I would just like to chime in as someone who has been there. In my case, it happened 6 weeks before our wedding. I had been posting here about 6 months before, in preparation for marriage.

I recieved the cut and run advice. This was unhelpful as I had already made my decision to save us and wanted support in doing this.

We were not in a dating relationship. We were already highly committed, married or not. If I had lied like Helen, I would have got the support I needed.

What we all need to remember is to consider each situation as individual. Cultural differences need to be borne in mind. How would you approach someone from an alternative religion who were not married in the tradtional definition, but equally as committed?

I am not a Christian and so we got married because we wanted to, not because of social pressure. We have lived together for two years. My parents never married because of financial reasons and beliefs, but they have been together for 25 years. If they came here with problems, would you tell them to cut and run?

We should not approach other's dilemmas through our own judgements based on religious/moral beliefs that may not apply to others. These judgements are often far removed from MB principles.

If I had cut and run, I would be miserable and lonely, and I would have lost my (almost) lifelong best friend and the man I truly love. It didn't take much fighting to mend things between us, and now we couldn't be happier.

We have now entered into marriage with open eyes. We now know, unlike before, that we are not invincible. We are working hard to make things even better for now and the future. I am almost glad it happened when it did.

I have huge respect for all you vets and admire what you do here, but please don't place people in boxes when, ultimately, we only ever hear a fraction of their story.

Lots of love. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ks2001, with all due respect, I don't know of any religions or cultures that condone adultery. It is pretty much the same across the board in that aspect.

I can't imagine any father in any culture that would want his daughter to marry a man that was unfaithful to her. As we discussed above, pre-marital infidelity is more often as result of character issues than unmet needs. That means that past behavior is an indicator of future behavior.

You may not have "liked" that advice, but just because you didn't like that advice does not mean it wasn't good advice.

That being said, I very much hope that your marriage works out and wish you the best.

To illustrate:

Faithinme "FIM" .... forgave a pre-marriage infidelity. He "proved" his love to FIM after his cheating on her ... and they married.

Now, she is dealing with her H's 2nd post-marital infidelity ..... only this time, she has 3 children to consider.

Pre-marriage is usually when a prospective life-partner is showing you their VERY BEST SELF, in order to attract an appropriate and desirable mate.

When one does NOT behave his/herself morally pre-marriage (like cheating), and they are STILL accepted as marriagable ... the standard for acceptable moral behavior has been set too low.

My opinion...

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ks2001:
We should not approach other's dilemmas through our own judgements based on religious/moral beliefs that may not apply to others. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Years from now, when you are in your 50's (like I am) ... you will laugh yourself silly when you think about what you wrote here.

The VALUE of religious/moral beliefs is that they are time-proven solid guidelines for living a good life.

A life with no moral guidelines is very chaotic and fraught with many avoidable injuries.

In fact, there is no better way to approach life's dilemmas than understanding and applying our own moral code of ethics.... which come from where?

If not your own code of ethical standards, what rules do you apply when faced with a dilemma? Drawing the short straw? Rolling the dice?

Ask yourself, where do these standards come from? Do standards just fall from the sky?

Pep

And... a RED FLAG in any type of relationship ...
business
friendship
family
dating
pre-marriage
engaged
married
divorced
affair

If the development or the continuation of the relationship depends on YOU disowning your personal code of ethics ...

as Star*Fish likes to say:

"DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!"

Giving away our ethical standards in order to please someone else, is sacrificing our integrity.

Pep

Originally posted by ks2001:

We should not approach other's dilemmas through our own judgements based on religious/moral beliefs that may not apply to others.

If this were true, we'd have no need for police officers or courts (or prisons).

SD

I was not implying that we should condone infidelity! Where did that come from?

I just think we should not judge relationships on whether they are legally married or not, we should look at individual situations rather than putting people in boxes based on generalisations.

Anecdotal evidence is not sufficient.

Pepperband, I find your comments extremely disrespectful and patronising.

Would you all respond to me differently if I lied about my age? I think so.

ks2001,

The label of *affair* or *infidelity* is putting an action or couple into a generalized box.

Without the box they were simply two people who met and enjoyed sex together.

Since you are asserting that married/unmarried is irrelevant and constraining... why not defend this position so that lesser mortals may be brought to your level of enlightenment? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Noodle
[licking her chops in anticipation]

noodle, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Allow me to put my point in the simplest terms possible:

I diagree with the notion that:

Married = Apply MB principles

Non Married = Don't bother, no matter how committed you are, how many kids you've got, any other possible circumstances that might lead someone to want to fight for their relationship.

If someone comes here wanting help saving their relationship, that is what they should get. It is completely their own decision which way they go, and not for us to judge.

I would like to raise the question again: If my parents came here for help, would you tell them to cut and run? (unmarried, together 25 years, 3 kids).

<small>[ November 21, 2004, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: ks2001 ]</small>

We should not approach other's dilemmas through our own judgements based on religious/moral beliefs that may not apply to others.

Pep,

I happen to be in my 40's and see nothing laughable about this statement. In fact I agree with it. Does that make me silly? lacking of intelligence? Un-enlightened?

My company (German owned with over 330,000 employees worldwide)just implemented a new policy where "life partners" receive the same full benefits of legally recognized married partners. The requirements for being considered "life partners"? - a form signed by both partners saying they are life partners which has been notarized, and something such as tax returns or checking account which can show that the couple have been living in the same house for a year. That's it! And it matters not whether the partners are of the opposite or the same sex.

And in this same company infidelity is not tolerated at any level.

Would you say that the decision makers in my company are operating by their own moral belief system? Or looking at what the employees they value need in each of their own individual situations and life styles?