Weaver... I have no idea how to answer you because I do not think your example is relevent to the discussion of where moral judgements arise.

I simply do not understand your point.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ks2001:
If someone comes here wanting help saving their relationship, that is what they should get. It is completely their own decision which way they go, and not for us to judge.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Am I not free to judge which MB relationships I want to help?

Am I not free to judge which MB relationships I consider MB material?

I judge where I want to spend my energies on MB according to my own standards.

You do it your way, based on your standards... and I do things my way, based on mine.

I am not argueing you out of your standards... I don't share your standards... but, so what? Who cares? It's OK that you think marriage is equivilent to living together. I don't feel that way.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would like to raise the question again: If my parents came here for help, would you tell them to cut and run? (unmarried, together 25 years, 3 kids).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It depends on what they say and what they want. I might. I might not.

Your parents' relationship of 25 years is NOT comparable with a very young woman dealing with a pre-marital cheating man ... a man who shows his ability to disrespect his potential spouse (or visa versa) very early in the relationship is a very big risk.... According to many many others, not just me.

I apologize for sounding patronizing ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep

Pep,

I guess I thought the discussion was on whether moral judgements regarding what constitutes a marriage should be used when determining who gets help on their relationship and who does not.

But now you are saying that legally married versus not legally married is not the determining factor on who you choose to help and who you choose not to help. Or maybe it is, but you are not saying so, just that you choose to help based on whether you feel their relationship is MB material. Which makes sense to me, why would you waste your time on something you don't believe in, how much help would you be anyway.

I tend to avoid posters that I don't relate to. Mostly this would be because of a personality issue for me, because that is how I am.

Telling someone to cut and run when they are not married and have no children may be the smartest thing to do, but is probably not going to help their situation any.

And infidelty is just as devasting to an unmarried couple living together as it is to a legally married couple. If they were at a place where they could or wanted to cut and run they would not be here.

My point about the company's new policy was one I thought relative to K's statement regarding keeping ones moral/religious beliefs out of the equation when giving people what THEY need as far as help is concerned. Because I thought K's statement was a good one, I was trying to defend it. Maybe the example was not very good, but I liked it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
just that you choose to help based on whether you feel their relationship is MB material. Which makes sense to me, why would you waste your time on something you don't believe in, how much help would you be anyway.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly... and I use whatever standard that suits me best... coz I am not getting PAID to do this!!! At work, I have to follow company policy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Telling someone to cut and run when they are not married and have no children may be the smartest thing to do, but is probably not going to help their situation any.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also tell those being abused to "cut and run".... and they usually don't follow that advice either... but I continue to say it, out of stubborness <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And infidelty is just as devasting to an unmarried couple living together as it is to a legally married couple. If they were at a place where they could or wanted to cut and run they would not be here.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well... Weaver, I was in a 14-year unmarried relationship that began right out of high-school ... so I speak from experience. When he cheated on me the first time, the counselor told me to "cut and run" ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ... so, I "cut" HER! ~LOL~ .... and I stayed in my relationship which was a huge waste of my time.... and he cheated again, and again.... and one day, after being together 14 years, he said to me, "Something is stopping me from asking you to marry me." ... and it was like a light switched in my head... and I was suddenly stone cold on him... he no longer mattered. I left him, after 14 years ... dated some more, then married my H.

I think it is a HUGE RED FLAG when someone cheats ~before~ marriage or ~early~ marriage. And statistics agree. One of the high risk behaviors written about in "Torn Asunder" ... is a history of previous cheating ....

But, when this happends ~after~ a lengthy monogamous relationship ... I think it is at least worth ONE TRY .... but, for me... there is no second affair followed by recovery. If H cheats again, I walk away. I figure, if he cannot learn from such a huge mistake, I don't want to take that relationship further. But, my H has been a different man since our recovery. AA really helped.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My point about the company's new policy was one I thought relative to K's statement regarding keeping ones moral/religious beliefs out of the equation when giving people what THEY need as far as help is concerned. Because I thought K's statement was a good one, I was trying to defend it. Maybe the example was not very good, but I liked it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just don't see how corporate policy applies to how we deal with relationships on MB or personal moral dilemmas. My company also recognizes same-sex partners and domestic partners ... and that's fine with me... but is is not and never will be marriage, which I hold in a higher esteem than other domestic relationships.

Take care,

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ks2001:
<strong>

I would like to raise the question again: If my parents came here for help, would you tell them to cut and run? (unmarried, together 25 years, 3 kids). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">k, I think you have misunderstood the matter entirely. It was never about the morality/immorality of being married versus not married. You think it is one of married vs non-married, but it is not. It is one of committed vs non-committed.

When folks are dating and NOT married, they are not in the same league of committment as a couple who is legally committed. A dating couple obviously is not legally committed.

A couple who is dating is in a testing period. That is the purpose of dating. When one member of the couple lies and cheats, they have failed the test. When one fails the test, that means they are not marriage material.

Common sense would dictate that the other partner move onto the next appropriate candidate as most thinking folks do not want to marry a person who will lie and cheat. If a person will do that during the test period, it more likely a character issue, versus a marital problem.

See the huge difference?

p.s. as for your parents, I would very much help them because they are in a de facto common law marriage.

<small>[ November 21, 2004, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong>
Telling someone to cut and run when they are not married and have no children may be the smartest thing to do, but is probably not going to help their situation any.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why not? Aren't we supposed to be giving our best advice to folks who come here rather than telling them what they want to hear? How does it help anyone to not tell them the best advice? Isn't that the point? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ November 21, 2004, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Melody,

As you know, from where I am sitting everyday from the middle of November until the end of May IS a cold day in hell!

Care for a pasty? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

edited to add:

Hey! I just reread (sp) your post, and you edited, you little stinker. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And to reply to your question, yes that is the point but most in that sitch aren't read to really hear it. It falls on deaf ears. Even Pep said she walked out when her IC said that very thing. She had to come to that realization on her own.

But that doesn't really deal with the subject of what is worthy of MB help from the forum. I don't know, for me most said cut and run, but I was determined enough to stick around and keep learning until I got to the place where I could cut and run, if that is what I decided to do. I guess that too boils down to how determined people are to get the help they need from this board. Although I wanted to cut and run from this board many times thinking it was not the place for me, I knew differently in my heart. Because I knew there were skills I needed to learn here in order to have so much as a successful dating experience, let alone marriage. And others, in those same shoes will stick around and get the help they need one way or another, despite the original unwillingness of posters on here to help them.

Okay now I'm babbling. Gotta "run" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Take it easy, Mel

weaver

<small>[ November 21, 2004, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

bwhahaaaaaaa! you are such a dang yooper! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[I just love that girl! hahaaaa]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong>

Hey! I just reread (sp) your post, and you edited, you little stinker. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I edited that about 2 hours ago! You yoopers sure are slow! lol

I do realize that some won't follow our advice to cut and run, but I will still give it if I think it is appropriate. I think it would be irresponsible to do otherwise and goes completely against my grain. Sometimes folks don't want to hear the truth and that is fine. It doesn't mean I will help someone along on a path of destruction just because thats what they want to do.

As far as helping others, we all pick and choose who we want to help based on different criteria. I try to help those who I can relate to and think I can help. And I think everyone pretty much does the same. No one is entitled to help, we are all volunteers here.

What the hell is a "yooper" ???

Pep

A yooper is someone who lives in the UP of Michigan.

Watch the movie "Escanaba in da Moonlight" and you will understand why everyone thinks we are "so slow" as Mel so nicely put it.

I could have wrote that movie myself, using my best friends and neighbors as examples, that's how close to the truth it is.

Sitting in the theater in Escanaba watching it listening to the people in the theater roaring at the tops of their lungs in laughter, made me realize -

that I truly am in hell. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So..what to do [which way do we go George, which way do we go <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ]

I agree that a person whose advice and opinion is solicited ought to give it with both barrels..but at the same time, I also agree that people will not hear something until they are good and ready. There IS a process to be respected..but to give what you strongly suspect to be false hope...or worse to buffer what is OBVIOUSLY a delusion...arg.

I suppose the best thing to do..would be to do as I would in real life..refuse to discuss anything personal unless it is with a close friend whose hand I am willing to hold and for whom I am willing to get dirty. My BBQ [busy body quotient] does not extend so far on a message board in which people are asking for objective [heh, right] advice from a stranger.

Chasing her tail,

Noodle

And Mel, if you are thinking it took me 2.5 hours to think of a comeback to you -

no, not true...my computer froze up and that's the soonest I could reply. Honest! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Noodle,

The more I read you the more I like you, but to be perfectly honest with you, I almost never understand a single word you say. You are an intelectual and I am a "yooper" I guess.

You are going to laugh when I tell you this, but when I read the reply you gave me on October's thread to me - "Amen to that", I was so surprised that you had replied on my thread, I was at a loss as to what to think or how to respond. So I just left it there and went to take a bath, and during that time my daughter sat down at the computer and started reading. She has a little notebook which she uses to write love letters to this boy who happens to hate her guts (she doesn't care, she's only 10) and she had read your post and wrote a reply to you in that notebook. You have to understand that I am on MB a lot and she asks about what I am doing on here and we talk about it some. Well one day a friend was over, and she was teasing me about being on MB and I said "but you don't understand how devastating it is to find out your spouse has been unfaithful. Some times people come on here almost suicidal (sp) and they need all the support they can get." Well my DD was sitting here listening and as we all know "little pictures have big ears", right?

So seeing your post to me and your name, in her notebook she has written this:

Noodle,

Everything is okay. Don't kill yourself. Why is your name Noodle? Do you want to be a Noodlehead or something?

Love, Paiger

She was trying to figure out how to post that to you when I came back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Melody,

What is your definition of a common law marriage?

Just out of interest

Common law marriage is not a matter of person definition. Usually when two people live together as man and wife for a significant period of time the state just declares them married.

Noodle

Hmmmmm.

Standards?

Where do they come from, Pep? Outta the sky?

Some apparently do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mine came from my parents and my life experiences. I remember being lied to by my little brother, as little kids are wont to do. I didn't like it, and in the end, he didn't either because Dad figured it all out and he got spanked. Over time, I acquired the habit of telling the unabashed truth because lying about something makes others feel bad and I didn't want to get spanked. Being dishonest isn't OK. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A handy test for "okay" - if you have to hide something, it isn't.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My personal standard evolved to the universally accepted - amongst civilized humans - Golden Rule.

When applied correctly, it works REALLY well for just about any situation.

It didn't fall from the sky or come from any other mysterious place. It was learned.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
WAT

My H and I lived together as husband and wife for two years before we were married.

Does that mean it could be defined as a common law marriage?

If so, where is your argument, Melody?


Don't you think what is REALLY irresponsible is to make life-changing decisions on behalf of posters when all we have seen is words on a screen? Who are we to tell someone to file a divorce/break off their engagement?

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 04:43 AM: Message edited by: ks2001 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ks2001:
<strong> My H and I lived together as husband and wife for two years before we were married.

Does that mean it could be defined as a common law marriage?

If so, where is your argument, Melody?


Don't you think what is REALLY irresponsible is to make life-changing decisions on behalf of posters when all we have seen is words on a screen? Who are we to tell someone to file a divorce/break off their engagement? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ks2001,

Common law marriage is defined by law, not by personal opinion. So, I am not sure what I am supposed to argue here. What do you mean exactly?

No one here has the power to make "life changing decisions" for any poster. When a poster comes here asking for advice, that is what they get: that person's opinion. Only the poster has the power to use or not use that advice.

Sometimes the best advice a person may get is to cut and run. And it is up to the reciever to take that advice or not.

And who am I to tell a person to cut and run? The person WHO WAS ASKED FOR MY OPINION, that's who.

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

KS,

I have been thinking about this topic since the subject first came up and have some thoughts I would like to share.

First of all please don't get stuck in this one issue and leave the board. You survived the infidelity and went on to marry your BF. That is wonderful, you have a success story to share. You are needed because of YOUR views of what is marriage material and how you view the different posters sitch, you can offer a different perspective other than the "cut and run" one.

There are of hundreds of people on this board and not all of them share the same perspective as Pep and Mel regarding when a relationship should be dumped or saved. But in defense of the posters such as Mel which you have taken offense to, I would like to add something that you may not see -

Mel (and others of her integrity caliber) are heroes to me because of the very thing you are challenging - her convictions. Her convictions make her who she is, just as your convictions make you who you are. Neither is better, but each is to be valued.

When I do post something on here about my relationship, I know exactly what Mel would say, "GET RID OF HIM" and that is why I value her. If one day all of a sudden out the blue she completely changed and said "well you know, maybe you could try this..." I would be dissapointed in her, because I value that she is true to herself and to her convictions always. If that changed it would be just one more reason for me to lose faith.

We must learn to value people because of who they are, and to celebrate their convictions even if they differ from our own.

Because of the differences in experience, beliefs, & perspectives of ALL the posters here who help others, we are getting help which we could not pay enough money to get anywhere else in the world. We are getting invaluable FEEDBACK, which even in an IC setting, if you get any at all is limited to that particular counselors scope.

And the learning on this board is not confined to your own thread and the posters who respond to you, a large part of it is reading other threads, experiences and seeing the different problem solving and relationship building techniques used and offered by posters helping others on those other threads. This is mainly how I learn and has helped me with different problems and I didn't even have to post, and such is the way members learn who never even log on.

So please stay and help others, or get the various help you may need to keep your marriage strong.