The pre-marital infidelity thread resulted in my following post, but I want everyone to see it, hence the new topic.....

(Quote)
OK- I've just got to chime in here.....with some Radical Honesty...

I've been on this site for over 2 years now. When I got here, I was a textbook BS....the pain was so incredible, and I was sure I was losing my mind.

After some lurking, I posted under another name asking for help dealing with all this infidelity crap.

As soon as I said that we weren't yet married, only engaged while living together....I got the "cut and run" advice. I quit posting.

Came back a bit later and posted under another name (this one), as if we were married and got much help. I will be forever grateful for that help. You guys here saved my sanity til I had taken enuff crap and was strong enough to get out. Finances, living arrangements, everything had to be dis-entangled as if we were married....

You all helped me learn the MB concepts and IMPLEMENT them IN MY SPECIFIC SITUATION. I think I can say that I'm a better person today and have the knowledge(and experience)that proves to me that these concepts WORK.

That's what I wanted to learn. I wasn't here to GET a better mate, I wanted to learn to BE better mate. I just wish I hadn't felt that I had to lie to all you wonderful folks.....and I apologize.

Do I see it as a blessing that he showed his true colors before we married? You betcha.
(end quote)

HW,

Maybe the reason why some posters feel that it is better to cut and run is that MAYBE they have not truly recovered from the betrayal by their WS. I'd be lying to you if I were to tell you that I have not felt the same way with regards to my first W [XWW] but then I would not have had two wonderful daughters, discovered Dr Harley's books [post divorce] and met and married my loving and wonderful W.

WAT said it well on LowOrbit's thread that just because a Fiance[e] betrays his/her future spouse, that it doesn't necessarily mean that the betrayer is not a 'keeper'. I said in my post there as well, in that if the betrayer acknowledges his/her betrayal, is remorseful, and is committed to following the MB principles, that the betrayed could end up being the loser and the betrayer the biggest winner IF the betrayed choses to end the relationship.

The best time to apply the MB principles is BEFORE marriage, not after it.

Exactly right TMCM.... as I said in the other thread, I wanted to give him a chance to straighten up and fly right...he didn't.

As far as my personal recovery goes...

2 months ago, I married (of all things!) a Sunday School teacher!

He had no problems coming to this site and reading the concepts and implementing them...and just that fact helped me decide to go ahead and marry him!

We are ecstatically happy!

Edited to add...he mentioned early on in our dating that he sure wished he had found this site when he had to deal with his WW....before his divorce a couple of years ago. So, we are 2 BS's who completely understand the pain of betrayal....

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>

oh, BTW Mr. Coffee guru....

Wanted to add that non-wimpy fresh ground and brewed dark roasted COFFEE played a major role in our courtship....and our pastor at our (his) church is an afficianado(sp?) too!

We have wondered if that was a factor in the pastor's decision to marry us as quickly as he did....just kidding there of course!

HW,

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> That's a great story and congratulations on marrying a man who embraces THE mighty coffee bean [and the MB principles of course].

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HelenWheels:
I just wish I hadn't felt that I had to lie to all you wonderful folks.....and I apologize.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hate being lied to ... just so you know.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HelenWheels:
I just wish I hadn't felt that I had to lie to all you wonderful folks.....and I apologize.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As Pep said..... however, I also understand the nuttiness of infidelity and the information deficit that we all deal with initially. So thanks for the "confession" and I'm glad that you gained the knowledge you sought. I am equally thrilled to hear that you are now in what sounds like a loving marriage.

Since my Pastor is a huge coffee lover (he has many times stated that he is in search of the "perfect" cup of coffee, grin) you might even be attending "my" church without our knowing it....wouldn't that be a "hoot?!"

Seriously, if you and your husband keep Christ as the Center of your marriage and follow Him daily in humble obedience, you will have a terrific marriage.

God bless and guide you both in your covenant with Him.

Congratulations, Helen!

Although your previous situation didn't work out, I applaud you for having the strength to go with what you felt was the Right Thing to do.

There is no contractual agreement here that we must always be 100% truthful. We must always remember to take things with the possiblity of a stretch of the truth.

I know myself there are things I have not shared here, because I don't feel comfortable yet. That is my decision.

Lots of love to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Enjoy your honeymoon period!

Helen,

I am not an "old timer", however I was not married either when I came here. I was engaged to and living with someone, who at the time wasn't cheating on me but... (another story, don't want to dredge it up anymore.

Anyway I came here to learn about myself mostly and to understand what it takes to have a great marriage. What I was lacking, how I always attracted and was attracted to losers. I needed to understand why he did what he did, but I desperately needed to understand how I contributed.

Unlike you, I am still involved with the same man, still trying in some ways to reconcile and improve the situation, only because my heart has not yet caught up with my head. And because my faith in him and us has not entirely died yet.

The information gained here has been among the most valuable I have ever rec'd because I have never had a good relationship, but now I think I atleast know what one looks like.

I am hoping that like you, I have become the kind of person who would be able to have a great marriage with a great guy some day. (him if he becomes that guy, or someone else)

Bless you, I am happy for you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HelenWheels:

OK- I've just got to chime in here.....with some Radical Honesty...

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My take on this....

Radical honesty would upfront include revealing your previous MB name.

From my perspective, as written, this is not a radically honest apology.

Of course, you are to be congratulated on your new marriage. A lifetime of blessings is my prayer for you.

Pep

And ....

I do not think everyone (or anyone) has a duty to post "radical honesty" on a public forum....

What I am objecting to is this... saying; "I am being radically honest with you." without actually producing radical honesty.

It weakens the concept for Helen herself if she believes she is being radically honest... when, in fact, she is still holding information back.
It is impossible to be radically honest while editing out relevent information. That is "measured honesty".

Helen is free to keep any part of her story to herself as suits her needs.

Radical honesty, the concept, needs protection from contamination when any of us say we are being "radically honest".

Pep

<small>[ November 20, 2004, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pep-
Yes, I understand. I hate being lied to. I'm sorry that I lied. That very sorrow and absolute detest for deceit led to my apology post. I was wrong. Can you forgive me?

I have always had great respect and affection for you. Your input and sense of humor was and is priceless!

FH-
Ditto above to Pep.

Your Word-based advice and insights were exactly what I needed to hear at a terrible time in my life. That very advice helped me to return to a faith I wasn't so sure that I wanted anymore, if that makes any sense at all......

My new H and I are so very blessed. The Lord has used this man mightily to bring us BOTH closer to Himself. Some truly mind-blowing events occurred to bring us together in ways that could only have been interpreted as the Hand of God Himself at work here.

We discuss obdience to God's word on a regular basis when making decisions. It's very clear to me that most if not all of the blessings that have come our way were DIRECTLY related to my H's choices to be obedient to God while we were dating and engaged. I stand in awe of Christ's power and love and my H's behavior has engendered a response of amazing love, admiration and respect.

Our pastor has notified everyone from the pulpit that if we see him scratching his head in bewilderment at a local coffee shop, he really is WORKING and not just goofing off! You don't happen to attend a small, conservative Presbyterian church do you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ks2001-
Thank you!

Let me applaud you back! You are finding the strenghth to be facing awful things like infidelity at only 20yo! WOW!! You're going to be a real powerhouse and a force to be reckoned with by the time you're my age! (Yup, I'm old! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

Weaver-
I've followed much of your story...I still lurk here everyday. I have been exactly where you are. Hang in there, girl! You've got your head on straight and are moving in a direction that can only be good for you and your precious DD. I've said prayers for you specifically as well as others embroiled in a crappy situation.

I also applauded your recent post about the family-friendly judge concerning inflicting damage on innocent children. To quote another poster..."Say yah to da yew pea!" I'm a troll from under the bridge, living most of my life in the Lower Penninsula.....I miss home! It's soooo FLAT here! I do have distant relatives in the Yew Pea. My grandmother's maiden name is as common there as Smith! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pep-
You are exactly right. I'm not sure, but I'll go check. I think my previous name was probably packrat88 who registered in October of 2002.

edited to add- I don't know how to use the seach function correctly, but it appears that the above may be correct. I can't remember the password to log in, and I know that the email addy I gave during registration is no longer active. Suggestions on how to find out the info you ask?

<small>[ November 20, 2004, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>

Hi Helen,

I wanted to point out one important thing that I'm not sure anyone has addressed:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You all helped me learn the MB concepts and IMPLEMENT them IN MY SPECIFIC SITUATION. I think I can say that I'm a better person today and have the knowledge(and experience)that proves to me that these concepts WORK.

That's what I wanted to learn. I wasn't here to GET a better mate, I wanted to learn to BE better mate. I just wish I hadn't felt that I had to lie to all you wonderful folks.....and I apologize. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not trying to beat you up chere...but learning to be a better mate, learning these concepts is completely possible whether you're married are you aren't. I have in fact, met many singles who suffered through the discouragement of hearing about their choice of mate....and carried on to become better people for it. I underrstand you felt compelled to lie in order to achieve that...but is that really an honest assessment of what happened? Did you truly NEED to lie...or might another honest strategy have been just as effective? Lying is almost always a conflict avoidance strategy, and if you're quest is to be the best you can be...that's something you want to deal with honestly IMO. Look at it for what it is....your stuff and part of your internal struggle. The board didn't make you lie...it was just easier to lie because by pretending to be married you could circumvent any of the conflict. What if instead you'd said "Hey, ya know what....I'd like to give this guy another chance, and I'm counting on you guys to help me."

LOL...it's also worthy to note...that the advice was right wasn't it?

hugs....now...don't....do....it...again....hahahhahha

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HelenWheels:
Pep-
Yes, I understand. I hate being lied to. I'm sorry that I lied. That very sorrow and absolute detest for deceit led to my apology post. I was wrong. Can you forgive me?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, of course I can forgive you.

What about the damage that was done (to you) by lying?

See, Helen, you reaped some benifits/reward by lying.

How are you going to reconcile that, next time you are faced with a similar conflict?

Pep

Pep and star*fish-
You are both correct. I do think I have learned my lesson. The conflict avoidance strategy is a weakness of mine that is still somewhat of a struggle, but getting better. My new H is better at that than I and we are both aware of it. I was honest and open and offered verifications and proofs while we were dating, as did he...I took the risk of initiating conflict to ask to see his divorce papers immediately after our first date, but before the second! A big deal to me to make sure that he wasn't already married! I was not about to unwittingly be an OW!!

Added-
As I see it now- my honesty with my new H and more than a few doses of honesty with myself over the last 2 years has paid off in spades! I don't ever want to go back to the way I was when I registered here and perpetrated the falsehood that I did....

<small>[ November 20, 2004, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>

Hi HW:

I remember your posts from back then (2 me and 2 my "alter ego" - Qfwfq).

Must have been 2 self-involved 2 notice that you might not have been completely honest with us. Glad 2 hear things are going well for you now, though!

best,
-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HelenWheels:
<strong> As soon as I said that we weren't yet married, only engaged while living together....I got the "cut and run" advice. I quit posting. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like many things in life, the farther down a path you go the more you have at stake and the greater the investment. An analogy I like is that of getting a dog for a specific purpose (hunting, agility, etc.) - it costs as much to raise, feed, and train a well-bred dog with good temperament and structure (or maybe less) than it takes to work with one that is substandard for the purpose. In the dog training world, we talk about "project" dogs -- those that need lots of work or are not sound -- and while they make you a better trainer, most of us don't want to get another dog like that after we've had a couple of them.

When you already have a dog, you feel like you should invest your efforts in that dog. But when you are looking to get a dog you don't already have, you can make different choices.

Perhaps people felt you were not that far down your path yet, and so had more options available to you.