Top Rope, as you guessed thats how I see it.

I appreciate the other views though. Its clear that 'conversation' between OM GF and myself is at least disrespectful to Squid and at worst potentially a recovery inhibitor. But I am not in a place where I will drop this vital source of NC police intel until Squid and OM can be trusted to maintain NC.

Tournament NC violation is a real 'shibboleth' to me. I don;t see how I could continue to invest in our M recovery if Squid knowingly violates NC for a karate competition.

Thats why policing NC is vitally important to me.

I'm sure I'll get another 2x4 over THIS statement now though too !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Actively working on recovery program:
FWW needs to learn the anatomy of A's, and really be on board for real recovery.

You can get the MB Home Study materials and do them at home together. Look at the following link:
MB Home Study Course

Trix she won;t read or listen to MB stuff right now. SAYS she thinks books and teh net is BS that can't possibly understand the love affair and broken heart she suffered.
I THINK shes scared she will see she was duped by a serial player and that ol black magic called 'dopamine' during the affair and doesn;t want to see it.

I don;t know how to make her study teh anatomy of affairs. I just don't. Any ideas ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

By the way...I think you should maintain your infrequent updates from OM's GF on OM Schedule. this should be until your wife and you are in active...fully aware...recovery and when NC is fully understood and accepted as necessary and agreed upon by your W with full accountabilty especially where Karate is concerned. So I agree with you, Bob.

You should have all the details you need to process your part of recovery and heal. You can't really be recovered until you both have done some difficult and probably painful work together.

You do it together. You follow the instructions in the manual which has clear guidelines for recovery from affairs and how to affair proof your marriage.


I kinda think you will need to insist at some point to work on the marriage in this more active way instead of the passive evolving approach it seems like she is only willing to take.

My H was onboard with and completely willing and enthusiastic to participate.

How long are you willing to only get the passive participation? Is your deadline still after the holidays?

Or, instead of the home study course (for $195) you could plan a vacation and go to one of the seminars like plan on the one in Orlando, FL in January ($895). You can plan on having a great vacation or get away while your at it. (If they can get out of school for a week or so, at that time maybe you can bring the kids and either use a sitter or if you stayed at Disney they could have a ball with the various kids programs they have while you are in the seminar.)

Trix, thats a really germane but difficult question. If NC was not established and some effort at rebuilding displayed by Squid by new years I was going to Plan B.

Fact is NC has been in place for more than two months now, and apart from that final call for three weeks prior to that too.

Squid is transformed: guilty, regretful, voluntarily changing some unacceptably independent behaviour, expressing her gratitude to me, her love for me, her capability as a Mom. Her willingness to talk more about the A and our future. All of these are transformed.

I think she is probably now READY to discuss an active recovery plan but I just don't know what one IS. I cannot picture what our lives should look like after recovery and what individual steps need to be performed in order to achieve that objective.I mean how many of MY objectives for recovery are unreasonable and reactionary responses to the A and the miserable M .

I endured just prior to it? And how much of Squid is with me because she would be enormously uncomfortable if she left without OM to go to ?

I REALLY WANT a pro M MC in the UK we can see but such does not exist.

So I'm genuinely a bit stymied as to what to do next. For now, patience and consistent "prodding" from is working well, and opening Squid up to a willingness to work on our Marriage. Its not 'passive' as the time has been utterly needed by squid and myself in order to normalize enough to asess the damage. We're both almost there now I'd say.

I have all the books but none tell me how to make Squid take MC books seriously.

I will pray about exactly that topic and seeif God can't move my action sensibly.

Thanks Trix.

Don't get me wrong, it's been sounding like you guys have made lots of progress.

We are now almost 2 yrs passed the last D-day. We are much happier now than ever before in our marriage. There is so much less uncertainty.

I really think that the work we put into recovery by following this program helped so much. We didn't follow through enough after the end of my H's A in 1998. We did what you are doing. We even renewed our vows. But I don't think my H understood how to avoid another A. He didn't fully understand about radical honesty, bounderies...etc.

I am not convinced your W does not understand that stuff either. But, you know your W better than anyone else.

Trix Squid doesn't understand that stuff at all. You are quite correct.

I need to interest her in learning it. Without bullying her of course, thats the hard bit ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Recovery? Just generally?

1) It was not a beautifull love story that sadly wasn't meant to be.

2) I am sorry and regret that I ever did it

3) I am ashamed of what I did

4) I am sorry for hurting you

5) I am sorry for hurting our children

6) I want to commit 100% to this marriage and do whatever it takes to make you feel secure in moving foreward.

Until you have these statements sans pride from FWW, in my mind the F is purely the product of circumstance. Until she actively repents..which means to turn away from this deed..I would not consider reconciliation.

It is entirely possible that she will be just plumb pleased to stay right where she is relationship wise..but you will need to move foreward or away.

I think when that time comes you will have either recovery or dissolution knowing that you have done all you could.

More will be required of her without concern for her feelings. If she is not openly repentant [notice again that choice of word..] and willing to make amends..then I advise against further relationship with such a self absorbed and immature woman.

Noodle

Just say what you think Noodle,don't hold back ! LOL ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'd like to get Squids agreement with those statements. I got a couple but not all. Mebbe I should run 'em by her and see what she thinks....

The only qualifier I'd make regarding your statements is that you do not factor in time.

Squids attitude has already changed enormously since she told me "I regret hurting you but not the affair - that was for ME!".

Now I get " I wish I had a time machine and could just avoid making all this mess second time around. I'm so sorry". Thats one reason why her ditching those 'love' letters from OM means so much to me. She evidently still values the A or OM right now despite all she says and behaves to me that she loves me and is regretful.

If I get no compliance with all your statements and more in a timeframe yet to be decided, I'll instigate a forthright exchange of views. Depending on the outcome of that I may yet NOT choose to spend my life with this girl. I REALLY love her and I want to recover with her but I value my self respect more than to waste my time with someone who values a memory more than the life contribution I can give her.

But I restate we are only eight weeks into NC and squid has moved on leaps and bounds. I have every hope that in time she will be 'repentent'.

She ain't yet though. But I don't see what action I could take to accelerate her there other than being persistant in my loving pressure to reform which seems to have worked so well so far.Any ideas ?

Well..the time frame is entirely up to you..of course..but until all of the conditions are met I personally do not consider a relationship in recovery.

False recoveries are sprinkled with regrets..true recoveries are open eyed..humble 180s with a side of I'm sorry.

Noodle

Maybe you can get her to agree to spending 1 or 2 hours a week to actively work on materials. Reading chapters aloud at least. I know you've said she isn't receptive to any MB materials. Frustrating...wishing she'd just get with the program.

You don't think she'd agree to a MB weekend Jan 21-22 in Orlando?...maybe it is all in how you present it.

We folks in Tampa Bay are just an hour and a half from there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Trix we couldn't do that weekend in orlando. we're in Miami & the keys for Xmas, then back home to England till I leave for our annual sales kickoff in Vegas on the 13th. Jan for a week.

Also taking kids out of school is verboten in the UK.
So a no-no really <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

* Noodle I understand your view and largely agree with it.

Rats

Well that was "interesting". I just asked squid for her response to each of noodles questions.

she asked if I was sad and stroked me. I replied #yes a bit, but only until I die don't worry". She smiled wanly and said " aww don't say that baby".

It seemd a great opportunity so I said " I have spent all this time building a place for you to recover your composure after this affair, and have tried to rebuild myself as a man who can better meet your ENs. But soon, baby, you will need to do the same for me. I don't think you will ever know how you hurt me"

" I do, you're always telling me" she says ( I'm not, mebbe three times since d-day each time when there was a good reason to say so).
I explained that my very ENGINES of trust, hope and faith were smashed as with a bomb. All I had left was a God placed love for Squid and my kids and a reborn shred of a love of God. Everything was broken and If roles were reversed I would do ANYTHING to help her recover.

She asked " what do you want me to do?" so I said " answer these questions for a start":

1) It was not a beautiful love story that sadly wasn't meant to be. I don't know what I think. I DID think that but now....I just dont know
2) I am sorry and regret that I ever did it yes

3) I am ashamed of what I did yes, very

4) I am sorry for hurting you yes,very

5) I am sorry for hurting our children I didn't hurt our children * my mouth hung open *

6) I want to commit 100% to this marriage and do whatever it takes to make you feel secure in moving foreward. sort of

A lot of tears then. Squid very upset.

I raised the topic of reffing and said that if she gave up tournaments I would never have to speak to OM GF again. She said she loves reffing and doesn't want to stop.

I said "I wouldn't want to work on our marriage if you prioritised your enjoyment of tournaments over my broken heart and our marriage recovery".

So she said " well thats it. I have to give it up then" and cried.

We talked about the 'letters' "I will destroy them if you want me to - I forgot about them "( yeah yeah)

We talked about the Ba(s)tphone - she said I could have it if I want it.
Then I held her and stopped the interrogation/manifesto mandate session. I MUST control the instinct to overutilise her responsiveness and do it bit by bit.

In fact she agreed to comply with every point I made. That is a massive shift - it would of been huge "NO!" even a couple of weeks ago.

It was a very unpleasant conversation. She was so happy - I ran her a candle and wine bath for after Karate and she was all soft and happy.

Well, she isn't now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But it needed to be said. And I didn't LB I said it in a loving way. She just gave me a kiss as she went to bed. I wish I knew what was in her head. I truly believe she doesn't know herself yet.

I pray it will prove to be a useful discussion like others previously. I feel like a heel right now. We'll see what tomorrow brings. If she destroys teh lie letters its been positive. if she doesn;t, well I am wise not to have thrown my whole heart in with her just yet.

I do think she still thinks the A was a love affair that tragically didn't happen. Not sure how thats gonna change without her withdrawing further first.

Why can't she see the facts of it? He was such a LIAR with absolutely no intention of doing anything but dropping her pants and sucking up her flattery. *sigh *

Ah well

A sad and shaky end to the evening but a needed 'hard' discussion. Its a great leap that she is able to respond to these.

She'll sulk with me for a while now. Thats how she is. When shes in the wrong she punishes ME for drawing her attention to it. Always has. Even now.

* sigh *

<small>[ November 22, 2004, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Hmm. I'm a bit sad now. Wonder if I was a bit 'knee jerk' tonight ? We'll see what tomorrow brings.

Bob, I'm so proud of you. I think you did an outstanding job. Now she knows what you need..now you know where she is *at*..not recovery..not quite..but damn close and I think that's pretty good considering where you were even a few weeks ago.

She will, at some point realize that she has held herself at the center of the universe..and that this will need to change..it will be a sad time..but periods of growth always are aren't they? Any volunteers to go through the teen tears again? Didn't think so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have a lot of hope for the two of you, you are pulling it together with remarkable speed, compassion, and insight.

We just don't want to overdo the kindness to the point of not really recovering. It hurts to dig the shrapnel out..but it beats the hell out of living with it under your skin for the rest of your life.

Noodle

Bob,

Perhaps this suggestion will work for you and OM GF:

Have her maintain his schedule in her Outlook (or Exchange) calendar. She also gives you electronic permission to view this calendar. It's easy. I can post how to do it.

This is working well for me. I have access to OMM's Outlook calendar (I don't think he knows, BTW). So I know when he will be anywhere near my W's campus or on any kind of travel (company travel was one modus operandi in their A).

Also, his W and I have an agreement to contact each other if we suspect any funny business. So far we have not had to, though. Just knowing we can, if necessary, has been comforting enough for me, and I think for her too.

A big plus: possible contact with his W it is very disconcerting to OMM, I know for a fact. It is cramping his style and his opportunities for other As. Hah, good for me...

And another thing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It isn't only important to Squids potential recovery...this affects you too.

All of the hugs and loveys in the world do not stop your EN bank from taking a powerful hit every single time she goes to one of these events. Your blood pressure rises, you grit your teeth, you think about it for days in advance, you contact OMGF to check scheduals, and frankly, you resent that she values these things more than she values your peace of mind. That she is willing nand eager to put you through this agony again and again for a game she enjoys speaks volumes.

At some point..both Bob and Squid will need to get real about what the future can hold..and what it needs to hold in order for them to go foreward as lovers for life. Anything less is unacceptable..nothing is so sacred it can not be slain for the good of the marriage.

The trouble with the WS is this..they are both the monster and it's victim..which makes sussing out just how to approach them and what to expect a bit..challenging <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Noodle