Bob,

In response to you stopping the communication with OMGF......

I would say something like: "Certainly can do that when I feel it is safe to do so."

This let's her know that your safety is a factor she needs to contend with. Not the word love but safety. She can't tell you t/b safe, she needs to make you feel and be safe.

L.

Bob,

I'm sorry you feel sad, but remember just one thing: things that are worth having take effort and are not easy--and frankly, they often hurt! I think your conversation was needed and wise, and it revealed a lot to you.

Now you know that she ONCE thought of her A as a lovestory that was not meant to be...and now she is thinking "hmmm...maybe not...maybe it wasn't actually love." That's good!!

Now you know that she does regret her choices and care aboutyou and wish she hadn't done it. That's very good too!!

Now you know that she has NO CLUE of what she did to her children and/or how it hurt them. This part is probably due to not wanting to see how much she hurt them...after all, what mother hurts her own children? This is a bit sad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Now you also know that she is not quite ready to commit 100% to the marriage and to doing whatever needs to be done. This is also a bit sad, but I think she is maybe at 75%, so it's not hopeless.

Bob, I understand it was hard for you to have this conversation, but I think it was productive AND now you know just where you stand. I don't think it was easy for Squiddy, but it had to be done.

Frankly, I'm proud of you, and I hope you will accept the friendly encouragement of one wild west gal who really admires you.

(((((Bob))))))


CJ

* noodle

She will, at some point realize that she has held herself at the center of the universe..and that this will need to change..it will be a sad time

This is the phrase I dare not consider often. This is completely true. Squids life has been full of generous acts but not defined by them. She has been, and remains a deeply self-centered person. She has never placed me on her list of priorities and higher than her pleasure. She took my unwavering love, provision, humour and support for granted many years ago.

I cannot remember when she has ever denied herself a pleasure for my benefit without MUCH unpleasant discussion first and much sulking from her afterwards.

The A was absolutely typical if I am honest. She has always agressively defended her 'right' to do as she pleased. Like building an entirely seprate life for herself in Karate deliberately leaving me outside it as merely banker and life support.

I hate saying this on this board as it will make some think badly of her,but its true nontheless. She has been, and remains, capable of great love and companionship but only when it suited her.

I explained to her last night that I will not return 'only' to the marriage we had before the affair. She responded that we were already beyond that ( we are its true).

When we talked about tournaments she said " you will have to trust me again sometime" ( meaning I should be happy to let her attend tournaments, with me, with OM. I explained that such would be a knife in my heart and says she values her pleasure higher than my safety or our M and it would make me feel further investment in our R was a waste of time.

THEN she cried. I think perhaps it was because she realised that the 'right' thing is for her to give up tournaments and she didn't want to. Also perhaps that she retains a hope of resuming a friendship with OM again.

I explained that I would be forced to destroy OM through exposure ( and maybe a claw hammer...just joking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) to prevent them meeting at tournaments.

She was made so sad by that - this was a very needed discussion. Its been a breathing space these past weeks, but now its time to knot my gut again and press on. I love Squid but not unconditionally. She has to change some very serious stuff that is counter to her instinct and behaviour of a lifetime. I wish we had pro M MC over here. I feel alone and ill equipped for this next stage.

But I must do it in prayer anyway. The likelihood of us recovering are probably 75% now I assess, a bit like CJs assessment of Squid.

She DOES love me. I DO love her. I am willing to do what is needed. Squid has just realised its going to take some uncomfortable on her part for the first time in her life,and she doesn't like that one bit. Whether she is willing to do what is needed to make me safe is the 25%.

Still as the old joke goes "tea break over, back on your heads". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

All of the hugs and loveys in the world do not stop your EN bank from taking a powerful hit every single time she goes to one of these events. Your blood pressure rises, you grit your teeth, you think about it for days in advance, you contact OMGF to check scheduals, and frankly, you resent that she values these things more than she values your peace of mind. That she is willing and eager to put you through this agony again and again for a game she enjoys speaks volumes.


One again I hate that you said this but it is incontravertably true. Spot on.

The only mitigation I would make is that Squid has voluntarily chosen to avoid 4 tournaments since NC has been in place. That is good, and was hard for her although I suspect it was in hope of resumption of tourneys some day. But good, believe me.


* FNCJ

Now you also know that she is not quite ready to commit 100% to the marriage and to doing whatever needs to be done.

I truly believe she is ready to commit 100% to the Marriage BUT NOT YET to whatever needs to be done. Last night was the first time I related certain behaviours from HER to the rescue of our M.
She doesn't know anything of the dynamics of affairs - she won't read SAA or this site yet. She thinks she encountered a great love that wasn't to be and that dealing with her guilt is all she needs to do.

Swallowing discomfort for MY good is alien to her. Its a whole new language she needs to learn. Right now I bet she is seriously ( but waveringly) considering if our M is worth giving up tournaments for ! OF COURSE she will conclude that it IS but she is such a spoiled child ( my fault in part for tolerating these many years <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) she will consider for a short while whether it is. Amazing.

The same lack of reality that made her consider that life with jobless, homeless serial womanizing wastrel OM would be a loving possibility she also seems to think life ALONE without me but WITH ten tournaments per year may be worth a try.

Breathtaking lack of reality there. BREATHTAKING.

We have some very unpleasant discussions to have for a while now and I am not looking forward to them to be honest. I must ask her to do things that she will hate and resent despite them being absolutely reasonable requests.

Hard but as Noodle says I cannot go through life with the shrapnel under my skin.I deserve better.

...but I DO love this girl. I pray we fix this mess. We have come such a long way, but the real recovery effort from both of us starts here.

Thanks all.

<small>[ November 23, 2004, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Well I just got back from taking my eldest to school. I found the letters, CDS - the ones I knew about and a couple I didn't, along with the ba(s)tphone on my desk.

Squid was upset. I said " thank you, this means a lot to me". She said:
"You mean more than anything. I won't hurt you withe these things, or anything else anymore. Sorry".

We both threw them in the bin hand in hand.

I said " the future starts here".

Squid's a bit withdrawn and misty but civil and 'OK'.

This is BIG BIG stuff everyone. Thats the first action Squid has executed that she really didn't want to do for ME and for US. Without being forced.

I am humbled. What a useful thread and discussion this turned out to be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Bob,

I am very glad things worked out for you with this one. You are in almost exactly the same spot I am in, except it does sound like Squid is a bit more of a talker than my wife. That makes things easier, I would expect.

It's almost an art..knowing when to lay off...when to push...sounds like you pushed at just the right time.

My FWW is a lot like squid, she has never been able to deny herself any sort of pleasure for my benefit...but then again, that's not exclusive to me. She has never been able to deny herself anything for HER benefit. She is emotionally about 15 years old...her parents tell me they think the same thing, etc. I really hope that we can get started in MC and her in IC and finally start to get past some of those things..

I am glad you have received some fruits from your productive conversation.

Getting rid of those things was a really positive move in the right direction on Squid's part.

Have you considered a few sessions for you and your W with SH? I know we have some very inexpensive minutes for calling from a land line to the UK (2.2 cents with an online long distance provider)...I imagine you have programs like that there as well. Also, isn't the exchange rate in your favor? SH sounds so adept at counselling (F)WS's.

Oh, Bob, I have tears of joy running down my face for you and Squid. So, happy for you both.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She doesn't know anything of the dynamics of affairs - she won't read SAA or this site yet. She thinks she encountered a great love that wasn't to be and that dealing with her guilt is all she needs to do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once I understood the dynamics of an A, after coming to MB, my mind cleared so much. It turned me 180!! It helped immensly in my personal recovery, and perhaps saved my M, although I was done with the A all ready.

BP, I think it is really important for Squid to read SAA, or MB. I think the forum might be to hard for her, but the concepts would help her understand herself so much better.

Then she can move on and work on herself to ensure something like this doesn't take place again.

She will very soon realize it wasn't a love story, oh happy day.

KY

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hate saying this on this board as it will make some think badly of her,but its true nontheless. She has been, and remains, capable of great love and companionship but only when it suited her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, this was the "old Squid." This is many of us or was many of us. It is summed up on one word....PRIDE.

We are by nature prideful and self-centered people. We do tend to look out for "number 1" most of the time. But you said a long time ago that you thought that she had, at one time, truly accepted Christ as her Lord and Savior. Pride is the foremost issue that God will "work on" in our lives.

You ARE going to see a change in her heart. When pride and humble submission to God clash with each other, it is God who has the unlimited strength and patience and endurance and time to "win out" in the end. Pride is Satan's domain and gives rise to sin and "poor choices."

Bob, God is not only teaching you, He is also teaching your wife. You may both be learing lessons at differing rates, perhaps even at times different lessons, but the end objective of the Master Potter is to shape a vessel that is worthy of Him and that brings Him honor and glory. He WILL break the pot and start over as many times as it takes to reform the clay into a worthy vessel. It can be painful, but is done in love for the "good" finished product that awaits in the future.

Bob, your last post indicates to me that the process is well underway. Her choosing to put those things on in your hands and into the bin, together, is a "non-verbal" communication of the breaking of "pride" and self-centeredness in her heart. The "new Squid" is emerging. Continue to seek God's will for your marriage and to be the (yes I know it feels uncomfortable at first) spiritual head of your household.

Bob, look back a few months. SEE the changes already made. KNOW that the process is underway and that the choices you are both making TODAY will mold and shape the "pot" of your marriage into one that honors God first. See the hand of God in your time of trouble....and never forget or "put Him on the shelf" in the future.

Bob, I am thrilled at this mountain that has been scaled in your wife's heart. It is humbling to see the results of humble submission to God and a chosen posture of an attitude of servanthood toward our spouse (from both of you). Scaled once, you now KNOW that any further peaks you may encounter can also be scaled. It IS possible and you are BOTH capable. I wonder if God has a bit of Sherpa in Him that He uses from time to time?

God bless.

FH this last week we have prayed together for the first time in a while, other than Grace at meals.

It has been an electric experience, we could both feel the tension in the air.

It meant a lot to both of us. I feel certain now that we can end each serious discussion with a joint prayer.

I have learned that God cares nothing for piety, but honesty and penitence he always recognises.

A good day.

Went to lunch at our favourite restaurant today. It was wonderful. Proper relationship discussion in hope, not attack and defense.

Squid had a "lightness" about her and said so.

VERY affectionate to me too. And very complementary about my 'Plan A'. I outlined MB principles and Plan A and she was shocked - but she did wonder where such unpredictable responses came from. I hope this will allow me to give her SAA to read.

This was a big thing that happened last night and today.

Thank God. The next stage has begun.

Congratulations

S'your fault noodle.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Bravery, study and correct timing.

Congrats is nice, but we haven't actually achived anything yet but a far more fertile soil for recovery to progress.

I can't tell you what Squid dumping that stuff voluntarily and saying all that stuff too in response to your questions means to me.

Big stuff. A long way to go but at least we got our tickets for the ride now .

Thanks Noodle.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ November 23, 2004, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Fertile soil for recovery is reason enough for celebration, don't you think?

Yes I do Noodle, I am happy and satisfied at progress. And proud TBH. The most effective stuff isn't easy to do for me.

I note with interest that Squid also appears to have benefited from our discussion and her divesting of the letters and stuff. I do something and it helps US. Squid does something and it helps US.

Just not getting carried away with battle wins. Its the war that defines success.

Its all good. Examining.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />