</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Morgaine:
<strong> I'm willing to bet a LOAD of money that the OW is NOT pregnant with a GIRL. She was not very far along when the ultrasound was done and usually ultrasounds will validate the presence of a penis, and sometimes there's one there that can't be seen in the image. I've just never heard of someone knowing THAT early in their pregnancy that the sex of the child was female.

I'd say the OW KNOWS that having a girl would give her that EXTRA little hold on Ed, so she's using that to her advantage.

Anyway, I wish I had a crystal ball, but I'm willing to stake $$ that the baby isn't Ed's and it isn't a girl.

(Very long-time lurker, here). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Morgaine,

So would you be willing to split the winning's? LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (just kidding) I have a maui coin to add to the pot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I thought about that also since the OW in my case pulled the same stunt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Harley's principle is to stay in Plan A for as long as you can without LBing. He says that women generally last no more than 3 weeks.

MT3B did what I certainly never could have. She has now started moving towards leaving. I think I was threatening for 3 years (starting shortly after the proposition), but then -- I meant it -- he said something "Do you want to argue about...?" and I crossed a love bank threshhold that was NOT the romantic love threshold.

Someone once posted to me not to go to Plan B until you are ready. People can advise, people can point out that Dad is stringing her along and of course doesn't want DV, but it needs to be a decision made when you are emotionally ready.

Mom, people here mean well. Most of us are in a mess in our marriages and trying to work things out.

I hope you come back, and I'll be checking to see you again on the Dr. Phil show!

Cherished

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Susan:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">geez I swear will he never learn....well his loss your gain.....and I know you've heard that said from many people </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His loss is no one's gain. Everyone is hurt and everyone suffers.

Dadto-no-one's actions inflict pain to all involved.

((((Momto3boys))))Peace to you.

Susan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually what I ment was he loses out on seeing his boys grow up....so it is his loss and moms gain...mom gets to spend all this wonderful time with her 3 gorgeous sons and make memories to last forever...and NO not everyone gets hurt...unless you purposly hurt them...things can be handled in a sistuation to make things quite a bit easier.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by momto3boys:
<strong>
MHT, as much as I appreciate your post and your enthusiasm for meeting another man in YOUR life, I will not go there. Just as the BIG man said "you have to finish THIS relationship before moving onto the next"...I never had any intentions on having an affair with another man...those emails were just that, emails...I never met with that old Boyfriend...

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NONONO....sorry damn everything I said is being misunderstood....I ment in the future FAR FAR from now....as in "if" things don't work out with dad....

*looks around worriedly**waves a white flag* ok ladies and gents lets call a truce before this discussion gets out of hand and someone really gets hurt....mmmkay *group hug* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Committed

for what it's worth..I wholeheartedly agreed with your post...

what started as a good-bye ended up in whaffling session...

while I'm not a huge proponent of co-dependency, I think we see a text book case. Go away then no come back. I know because I've been there and if not careful can catch myself slipping back into that thinking.

Marriage in of itself is a form of co-dependency but when we're tied to an unhealthy relationship that a normal person would easily walk away from, then I tend agree with those who espouse the idea. I have been a big supporter of MT3B but there comes a point where the games have to stop. Only a co-dependent person would question a desision to ask their husband to leave in such a situation. A non-co-dependent person wouldn't even consider their decision as inappropriate...and it wasn't inappropriate.

Just as Dr. Phil said, these children need no more of this!

I don't particularly want to witness this tit for tat manipulation..so I guess IT IS good-bye..for me at least...

Co-dependency -- tolerating bad behavior in the hope the other person will care for you

Interdependency -- caring for the other person while the other person cares for you.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a co-dependent person. It shows a strong belief in the goodness of the other person in the face of evidence to the contrary. Dad COULD wake up, especially if OW has an affair with someone else or the baby turns out not to be his.

Cherished

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cherished:
<strong>
I don't think there is anything wrong with a co-dependent person. It shows a strong belief in the goodness of the other person in the face of evidence to the contrary. Dad COULD wake up, especially if OW has an affair with someone else or the baby turns out not to be his.

Cherished </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cherished,

This is some major fog talk ya got going here. The whole idea behind the Harley concepts is to take action to protect yourself and the M from the damaging affects of the WS's actions. It's not about waiting around for the A to end or for the WS to have an epiphany.

To sit idly by, hoping that it will all just go away and things will return to what they were is non-productive. It does not protect the BS, it does not protect the M and it does nothing to sway the WS from ever doing it again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cherished:
<strong> Co-dependency -- tolerating bad behavior in the hope the other person will care for you

Interdependency -- caring for the other person while the other person cares for you.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a co-dependent person. It shows a strong belief in the goodness of the other person in the face of evidence to the contrary. Dad COULD wake up, especially if OW has an affair with someone else or the baby turns out not to be his.

Cherished </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With all due respect there may not be a post that I have ever disagreed with more (trust me, that is says a lot coming from me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). Please, anyone, tell me how someone really believe this? Cherished, if you really believe this I feel very very sorry for you. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> YOu are bound to be hurt FOREVER.

It is no wonder why "doormat" behavior is so prevalent on here?

Now, now, lemonman....

I think I understood what Cherished was trying to say. Some people are so giving that they end up being trampled on. But it isn't the fault of the person who is so giving....

Co-dependencyt, though, goes beyond being just giving... it feeds into bad behavior and allows it to continue, to the detriment of the giver.

Can we all just chill awhile? I am getting a headache!

~ Snow

P.S.: Lemonman.... do you think I make a good "doormat"?

<small>[ November 27, 2004, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]</small>

Co-dependency -- tolerating bad behavior in the hope the other person will care for you


I don't think there is anything wrong with a co-dependent person. It shows a strong belief in the goodness of the other person in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Cherished,

I say this with all good intentions..

Are you in individual counseling?

committed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Snowbelle:
<strong> Now, now, lemonman....

I think I understood what Cherished was trying to say. Some people are so giving that they end up being trampled on. But it isn't the fault of the person who is so giving....

Co-dependencyt, though, goes beyond being just giving... it feeds into bad behavior and allows it to continue, to the detriment of the giver.

Can we all just chill awhile? I am getting a headache!

~ Snow

P.S.: Lemonman.... do you think I make a good "doormat"? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uggh, here we go again..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...For the love of GOD !!!!!!!

Committed,

I believe you meant that, sincerely. But I don't thnk Cherished will and many others won't, either.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the written word is easily misunderstood.

(Snow sits back and waits for the fur to fly).

~ Snow

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Snowbelle:
<strong> Committed,

I believe you meant that, sincerely. But I don't thnk Cherished will and many others won't, either.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the written word is easily misunderstood.

(Snow sits back and waits for the fur to fly).

~ Snow </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Snow,

Well...it is not my responsibilty to make sure that ALL the posters understand exactly what I am saying. I cannot guarantee that I will be understood by ALL the posters at the same time. So, forgive me if I don't waste time with needless words.


I have read Cherish's posts...and I read them when she posted under another name. I am familar with her story...and I do not think that it is out of line to ask her that question...given that knowledge.

Please do not make this out to be something mean.

committed

Originally posted by committedandlovingit:
<strong>Well...it is not my responsibilty to make sure that ALL the posters understand exactly what I am saying. I cannot guarantee that I will be understood by ALL the posters at the same time. So, forgive me if I don't waste time with needless words.</strong>

I have nothing against writing succinctly, but if your words are misunderstood by several people at the same time, I think you need to reevaluate your writing style.

And I guess I need to do the same as you did not "read" what I attempted to write.

I, too, am familiar with Cherish's posts, also under her old name... have read her story for some time. You can ask any question you like, but if you ask it in a way that is perceived as sarcastic, or uncaring, it won't have the affect that you hope.

I did not intend to make your comment out to be mean. Again, my writing style came up gooseggs on that one. I apologize.

~ Snow

<small>[ November 27, 2004, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]</small>

At risk of doing further damage here, I'd just like to say that I agree with ba109 - and I see lots of evidence of co-dependent behaviour between dad and mom here - I've had to struggle with co-dependency myself (1st marriage was to an alcoholic, father is an alcoholic, grandfather was an alcoholic), so I think I recognize the dynamics when I see them, and although dadt3b doesn't appear to be openly addicted to any substance, his behaviour is that of an addict. I also don't feel commited's post was in any way harsh, and I was surprised, but not surprised when momt3b took offence at it. I've been keeping up with her story, and she has "left" before when she received posts she felt were "not helpful". Like Melody said, if you receive a post that hurts you, for whatever reason, the most polite thing to do is to say "thank you for sharing that thought, I'll think about it...", not storming off the board in a huff.

Since I went through the scenario you are living through now, Kandi, as a child, I really grieve for you and your family. I respect you for trying so hard to keep your marriage from failing. I do realize that you love your boys as passionately as I love mine. No-one does a perfect job at trying to save a troubled marriage "Stellar plans A and B" are rare. The people here who post to you are trying to support you, and don't post just to "bash" you if you do something "wrong".

In all of this drama, the ones I really hurt for are your little boys. There's a lot of talk about you and your H, but very little about them - I don't talk about my sons on this board, either, that's private info. But I can't help but wonder just what all this is doing to them?

I think Dad's comment "I've always wanted a girl" - is the cruelest possible rejection of his own sons that I have ever heard out of the mouth of a WS. Does that mean that if the OW has a boy that he would come home, even if it were his? This is sick-talk big-time and it was broadcast on national television. What are your sons going to think when they hear those words coming out of his mouth? Does this man deserve to be a father to those 3 boys? Not in my book. He may have sired them, but he obviously doesn't value them, or have any consideration for their souls, their thoughts, their feelings, their self-esteem. For some fathers, kids are playthings - real cute in short bursts - say funny things, throw them around and rough-house with them for awhile. Real fathers see their children as much more than playthings.

No-one else has commented on this aspect other than to say that dad isn't behaving like a dad. I wonder what others think about this?

More than anything, I would like to know that you are doing your best to protect your sons from the emotional turmoil around them - I am sure that you are trying your best, and I hope this doesn't come over as a criticism of you, Kandi, it's not meant to. I've been through my own children witnessing scenes between me and H which they should not have and I know how hard it is to protect them from it.

Please be assured of my good wishes at all times.

LIR

Committed,
I am not offended by your post. My first name, even before I knew there was an A, was uncommitted. Then the A came out and I said I had also hidden a broken arm. One person quipped that my name should be shouldbecommitted. Another poster said that wasn't very nice, but I thought it was funny.

Yes, I'm in counseling -- 80 times since two months into the A. The 4th time was 3 hours after the broken arm. My H decided about a month ago to go to counseling.

Not to mention about 80 e-mail exchanges with Dr. Harley on the private forum.

I think interdependency is what makes marriages great. You depend on a spouse to meet intimate emotional needs of affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation, and recreational companionship. Another person must provide those to you.

I tolerated incredible abuse for the crumbs of attention that came my way. My therapist told me that she usually uses a V code (marital difficulties) initially and then is forced by insurance to use a mental health code after about 4 visits. She told me recently that she is still using the V code. She told me a year ago that "Tom's not in a place right now where the concept of care makes sense to him." I had less and less self-respect over the years, and that is changing. Like MT3B, I found I needed to have enough of a sense of self-worth and self-respect to not tolerate the treatment I was getting.

To my H's credit, he's now decided to follow the program, which means 15 hours per week of meeting each other's intimate emotional needs. I told him four years ago that I was "starved for affection". This morning, I got about an hour's worth of the gentle intimate affection that can only be given by a husband -- stroking my forearm, my breast, my back... It was wonderful.

As for MT3B, I think she has gotten to the point that she is no longer willing to accept the treatment she has gotten. I have a lot of hope for her. It's tough to face that only Dad can control his actions, and he has chosen to justify his behavior on national television. "Always wanted a girl." That is PATHETIC! What I see for him is that OW may have an affair on him -- the sooner, the better. That might wake him up to the cruelty of how he has been treating MT3B. She may be enraged at us, but her rage is really in recognizing that no matter what she does the ball is in Dad's court. She needs to get away from him because of his complete lack of care and regard for her and their children. I think the worst is soon to be over for her emotionally. It's hard to give up the idea that -- if you just do the right thing, if you just expose it, if you just get your H on the Dr. Phil show -- then everything will be OK, your H will wake up... Dr. Phil knew... He said that Dad wouldn't hear unless he was ready to... and Dad isn't ready to...

Cherished

<small>[ November 28, 2004, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

Just my 2 cents, but this has nothing to do with the sex of the OW baby. I don't think at this point it would much matter if the OC ended up being a boy, and not even proven to be D23.

It's all about his treatment of M23, their boys, the lengths at which he will go to justify his behavior, and continue to disrespect his wife and children.

Kandi....
Listen to me....and I don't want you to take this with a grain of salt...REALLY REALLY LISTEN. I have been thinking long and hard on this.

In theory...if you were able to go 100% DARK right now...and I mean DARK .... visitation with the boys can be monitored through a law guardian so OW doesn't get to them, but D23 can still have a relationship with them.

DARKNESS...through all the holidays. THIS is the driving factor of whether or not your M will make it.

I really don't care if I get any 2X4s right now..but playing devil's advocate....

IF you don't go dark.... and you FORCE D23 into some type of POJA as to contact... the holidays will AGAIN be a driving factor.

He can't spend the xmas and new year's holidays with both families can he ?

Someone is going to end up pretty hurt. And someone is going to end up at the end of their rope.

M23...do you want that person to be YOU ?

Gosh..I hope you realize what I'm trying to say here.

If he makes no attempts to make his way back into the home, that says... my wife and my boys can suffer through the holidays as a result of my actions.

Knowing DAD...he will go with... it's only due to M23 throwing me OUT...that my wife and boys are suffering through the holidays as a result of my actions.

I'm saying THIS. You threw him out...if he USES THIS AS A TICKET TO SEE THE OW, AND SPEND TIME WITH THE OW...HE HAS NO INTEREST OR CONCERN FOR HIS FAMILY.

If he were truly concerned and wanted his family..he's be walking the walk. PROVING NC, PROVING he'd do whatever is necessary.

By seeing OW...because you threw him out... gives him a ticket to continue having an A ??

NO..... let him lie with this for awhile Kandi.

This is your only chance to get YOURSELF together.

MY HOPE...is that you finally look in the mirror and see your WORTH...and realize with every ounce of your being...that YOU DESERVE BETTER. And damn it...if ED doesn't see it...someone else will.

Hugs to you sweetie.

Just to clarify - I didn't mean that I accepted dad's excuse "I always wanted a girl", or that this statement has any relevance to the situation (except in his foggy mind). It's a perfect example of twisted thinking "fog-talk".

What I meant is that it is an exceptionally cruel example of fog-talk in that it relates to, and has impact on the three boys he already has with Mom.

As such, if I were one of his sons, I would find this statement intensely hurtful.

An example of why in his present state of mind, he is capable of causing a lot of emotional damage to his children.

I guess maybe I'm just stating the obvious.

I also agree with you, Snowbelle, that it is also the way you say something that makes a difference as to whether someone is willing to listen or not. I sometimes have a problem with being too blunt or too clinical. When I read things back that I have written, they often don't sound with the same kindness I mean and feel even while I am writing - some people are better at that than others.

Betrayed's point at the end of her post is the kind of thing that I am talking about when I say I "see" the co-dependency dynamic at work - that it is so hard to give up on the idea that if you could ONLY do this, do that, even to the point of getting dad on Dr. Phil, MAYBE it would somehow make him change his mind - this is co-dependency. The sense that if only *I* did things *right*, it would change the way HE behaves. He won't change the way he behaves, or sees things because of anything you do. He will only change when and if he decides to, and he is not ready to do that - the proof is that he is still articulating foggy thoughts such as "I always wanted a girl". Nothing you do is going to make any difference in the way he thinks or feels about you. You can only take care of yourself and decide what you want - you can't change them for the better by anything you do, that's their job. I am glad to see Mom taking the steps to decide what it is she really wants out of life - this shows her growing strength in the face of all the trauma she has been through.

Sending good thoughts your way, Momt3b.

LIR

I agree with you that co-dependency is about "If I can only get my spouse to..."

I went way down that path.

What happened with me is that I woke up about a month ago and said to myself, "I don't want to live this way." With regard to the MB program, which is 15 hours per week of time together, my H has many times asked if 14.5 hours is acceptable. The last time he said this, I said something to the effect that I don't want to live in a marriage of neglect.

If you look at Mom's last post, it was about how she didn't want to live this way any more.

She's on her way. She's giving up on trying to influence Dad and deciding that she has better things to do than try to catch Dad in contacting OW.

And yes I see "I've always wanted a little girl" as a sign of incredible fog-talk...along with "I do have feelings for this woman." Insensitive. Cruel. Heartless.

I think Harley's labeling of adultery as essentially an act of inconsideration is totally accurate. It sounds like such a mild term but in the end a person uses feelings of love and a sense of responsibility towards OC to justify inconsiderate behavior towards the spouse.

Cherished