Goodbye and Farewell DT3B and MB board - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Well, Well, Well...isnt' this interesting...I JUST walked in the door from being with my DYING dad about 10 minutes ago...As dad was getting into the shower, I told him I was going to call my mom to let her know I was home...instead I picked up the phone to check the last number dialed...you wouldn't believe whose number was on there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> YUP, the OW's...

I then went to look at his beeper...she paged him at 12:10 AM...which tells me dad probably had her here...althouhg he denies that...WHATEVER! We had agreed to a seperation just yesterday...isn't that funny how he has agreed to a seperation...I asked him how long he has been in contact with her... 2 days WOW...lets do the math...I've been gone for ummm, THREE days! Can you believe this man..the gall he has...I am sitting there with my dying father...and he has screwing some *****...

Oh wait..it gets better....I called the number...she answers the phone...HELLO! I said "You stupid WHORE"...well, she hung up on me...wonder why...then I dialed the number again...then DAD starts defending her! Dont be calling her and harrassing her! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

So he is out the door...so long and farewell daddy O! Good riddens! so sad how somone can be soooo self absorbed to do this at a time when I so badly need him! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

[ November 27, 2004, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: momto3boys ]

What can I "say" except that I'm sorry. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

(Shaking Head As I post this). repeatedly

Wishing you the best in whatever it is you Decide to DO from here on out.

M23B,

I am sooo sorry to hear of his continued mess. All the showers in the world won't rub off the stench of the OP.

M23b, what you miss and need is your H. What is currently inhabiting your home is a WS. Not the same, just a mere shell of the H.

Get yourself to a safe place so you can deal with issues within your control.

Hugz,
L.

Myself and Frags are sooo sorry you are going through this horrible pain. Reading your previous posts and watching the Dr. Phil episodes, in my opinion, it is for the best you remove your H from your household. God Bless You and your children. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am so sorry. I will pray for you. As much as possible try not to react to him in any other way but with true, calm, and the disappointment you feel. LBing, although understandable, only fuels more justification for his actions.

He will make his choices...he will also make his bed and need to lay in it too. At this point they do deserve each other.

[ November 21, 2004, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Trix ]

What a piece of work. show him the door, go straight to plan b, and move on for now. THis is sucky, Focus your love and attention on your three boys, dying father and loving mother. This man DOES NOT DESERVE YOU!!!!!!!! He will wake up one day to all that he has given up. I am truely sorry for your pain and suffering. I wish I had advice for you. Know that you and your family are in my prayers.

This is sooo utterly sad...my DS8 came down for a drink of water..saw his daddy with a big bag going out the door...started to cry...I explained to him that daddy would not be living here at home anymore..I told him that I loved him very much...so did the alien...

Dad came back in and asked if he could sleep in the guest room. haha...asked him some more questions...he said that he had called her at work on Friday and asked her to page him...hmmmmm, he KNOWS I will be out of town...so why did you aske her to page you, dad??? cause he needed to talk to her about the baby...BARF!!!! so, why did she page you at 12:10 in the AM, dad? hmmmm, cat got your tongue? sooo, you spoke to her ONCE, why did you need to speak to her again? cuz It is kinda hard NOT to call her again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Told him, doesn't matter, he will get into his car and call her immediately anyway...he said well, yea, after you called her up and called her a WHORE!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I just cant deal with this anymore...I really thought my dad was dying today...matter of fact, when I called my WH to tell him he needed to come up NOW, he said he was sitting on the deck..I thought it strange that he was sitting on the deck alone...anyway, as I am crying my eyes out, he is talking to HER! I really thought my dad died...but somehow he came back to life! He is stable now, and still hanging on...I cant stand seeing him like that!

What an A$$!!!!

I am so sorry momt3b. This is going to be yet another challenge for you, and very hard for your boys. I suggest you come up with a plan, because you and your boys can not keep playing with a yo-yo. ALl this is showing the boys is how not to trust people.

Did dad say why he wanted to sleep in the guest room? why did he not talk to the boys with you? Leaving you as the bad guy as he goes out to continue his life in his selfish ways and nailing the OP (you know you are going to get censored right?) anyway- he is just plain self-centered at the moment. Those poor boys he needs to worry about now more then a baby that is not even here yet. THose emotions and feelings and trust issues he is permeantly implanting in his kids. He needs to think about those darling innocent angels that did not ask for this. URGGGGGGGGGG!

[ November 22, 2004, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Archuletan ]

MT3B,
Remember that you do have a WS in the house and not an H. He'll have his fill of OW before long, and then it will be important for you to know the difference between forgiveness of his past behavior and tolerance of any poor behavior in the present.

Just shy of three years after my H broke my arm because I threatened to call OW, after I went to therapy for about 80 sesions, I faced reality and decided that I wasn't living this way and would file for legal separation -- and now he has decided to go to therapy and try Harley's program. You have 3 children. You don't have the option to file for legal separation. You can file for divorce and make it clear to him that your H is welcome back with conditions that are laid out -- after OP is gone -- after he reconciles himself to not seeing OC until she is older -- after lots of counseling, whatever...Plan B or D means NC -- he won't wake up if he thinks he can justify his actions by any contact with you.

You have decided to live with human dignity when you have been treated so disgustingly insensitively. I would love for Dr. Phil to have you back to see the transformation you will be going through... Dad is so clueless he thinks he represents all those WS s out there. Well, most WS s come out of the fog shortly after the A is revealed and they don't father a child and go back and forth between two locations... On the Dr. Phil show, he never once considered the pain he has put you through.

Cherished

[ November 21, 2004, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]

So...

What does all this mean? Is he still there? Or..what?

I'm confused.

Noodle

Mom to 3 boys:

I honestly don't know HOW your holding this all together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Just ONE of these situations {your going through} is enough to bring the strongest of us to our knees.

And here you are going through BOTH at the same time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Even if we have to be strong for our children......this is almost Emotionally MORE than one person can deal with. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I admire YOU for being able to Cope with all this [However it is your doing it!!!!!]

I will say a prayer for you....that you may have the strength and sanity to weather this chaotic storm in your life .

Be Proud of yourself.......WE sure Are.

I hope that Stressed out Mom and any others who are with you in the "real" world....will be able to give you ALL the support you Both NEED and DESERVE!

[I hope Dr. Phil is springing for some IC for you there where you live].
Cause you NEED to be talking to someone.

My heart goes out to you and of course your sons.

OK Mom. ACCEPT that Dad just cannot or will not go no contact with OW. Please, please, please remain calm. He MAY NOT sleep in the guest room. Change the locks. Get an intermediary to get the child visitation issues taken care of. By NO means can he duck out on the boys too. If he does, you need to document carefully. This will help you later.

This hurts, having your dad sick and dying hurts, it just sucks all around. But you will come through this and you will be the better for it, I promise you.

Re-read the principles. Plan B. NOW. For REAL. Don't allow your emotions to overtake you. Remember you don't want to fight in front of the boys. YOu want to be the calm, cool righteous one, their protector, their stability, their rock. Rise above D23B's seriously sick behavior. He needs to be out. PLAN B.

(((((Mom)))))

Hang in there.

This is how you will know you are serious about D23B leaving. There will be NO emotion. He won't be able to goad you or push your buttons. You will have moved to a place of seeing his juvie drama for what it is, a way to know he still matters to you. The stone-cold truth of the matter is that he is behaving in a way to force your hand to take it to over. He wants to so aggressively hurt you that if you have a shred of self-respect at all, you will divorce his sorry *ss tomorrow. But he would be shocked to see you do just that. He believes you care more about him than your own survival, or he wouldn't have taken it this far.

The second shock he will get is when you do it with the only emotion being to protect your children from his psycho behavior *ME*ME*ME!! No amount of cruelty will get you to engage with him. Then he can go live in the h*ll of his own making with the "oh-so-intellectually-stimulating-one" as she sinks her classless clutches into him.

Flowers go to good-will or the trash. Same for teddy bears, and other gifts. Salvation Army is always looking for ways to help the homeless, so as Dad goes into his drama for the nth time please see him as the lost pitiful adolescent gangster he really is.

Peter Pan needs to grow up. And You Wendy Lady, you need to let him fall, hard. Now. Let God lift him up this time. Not you. Not your children.

(((((HUGS)))))

I just got off the fone with stressed out mom..she cant believe his latest antics...and she agreed that I did the right thing. I know I over reacted...BUT, Ijust cannot take his lies AND tryiong to deal with my daddy at the same time. At one point, and I may have alredy said this, I thought we had lost daddy today. It was something I had never seen before. he kept asking for us to PULL him up...he kept reaching for us...so we pulled him up...he was asperating...he was looking above us, at the wall, his eyes were rolling back into his head...he was moaning something...looking for something...the nurse said "Tom, are you seeing a light" and he was just sitting there....he stopped breathing, then went limp...he then lay back down...his heart rate was 140...he had the gurgling sound in his throat...you can only imagine how scared I was...I was sick to my stomache. I had to get out of the room..he stareted stablizing...I called me husband, he was talking to OW...later I confirmed that...

I am sooooo glad I did that show...what a blow to him...I am going dark...very dark...although I do not want to hurt the kids anymore than they already are...I dont know how to do this without hurting them more. I am going to try to get some sleep now...

Does that tell you what sort of OW this woman is if she takes him back after the shows? I mean he laughed when I said she lives with her.....MOM....hahahahahahahahahahaa!!!!!!

Just know I'm hoping for the best for you.
I wish there was something someone could do. Nobody can say you haven't given this 150% mom.
We love you, no matter what.

((((((((((((((((((M23B))))))))))))))))))))))))

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I dont know how to do this without hurting them more <hr /></blockquote>I swear to God, I don't know how either Mom, and I know that weighs on you horribly.

Can you ask someone that knows ? Can Dr. Phil help you maybe ? I know he would Mom...I just know it...I got the feeling he's in your corner 100%.

Please get some help with all this...you can't keep carrying this burden alone.

[ November 21, 2004, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: betrayedinjersey ]

Mom,

I'm am so sorry for you. I have 2 boys and I know this is so hard. Especially dealing with your father's impending death.

I didn't find this board until August so I haven't followed your story from the beginning. I did, however, watch the Dr. Phil series. And I absolutely laughed out loud and clapped when you said "she lives with her mom." My boys had to ask me what I was cheering about.

Anyway, I did a search because I thought that dad had actually posted here. I was curious as to what he had said. I thought it was ironic that the first one I found was the following. This is part of a thread that he posted on around March 26, I think:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />They are all the same, they want what they cannot and should not have, TEMPTATION is the operative principle it will always be there lurking when you are weak,it is like a little devil on your shoulder whispering in your ear. THEY ARE NOT YOUR FAMILY, you will get old and die alone without your family for sure, will the OW be there if you get sick? lose your job? lose your status, money? Lovers? blah I could get in bed with a parade of them now I know to run away run from them they wittingly or unwittingly will destroy you. DESTROY YOU. Think about that. It is a fit, we are a match, it feels so right we all say that, they say that. Strip yourself down to nothing and see if she wants that, you know your family will take you unconditionaly will OW? Oh yes she says, you are the love of my life etc... BULL****. It is fantasy a best case scenario, wishful thinking or actually a total delusion. All women look good when all they have to do is please you and seduce you, that is it. One job one purpose to fool you to bedazzle you, poison you away from the truth. THEY CANNOT BE WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE AND YET DESTROY EVERYTHING YOU ARE AND WILL BE. Think hard my friend, be alone without her, stare at some sterile hotel walls while you wait for OW that is all you will have left, your family will move on eventually without you, life goes on and you will be with your wonderful OW wondering what the hell you gave up. <hr /></blockquote>In the midst of all this, I guess I thought I'd bring some of his own words into this. I think you are making the right move by making him leave. I think he will quickly come to his senses.

Just my thoughts. Hugs to you and those boys. They sure are cute.

ng

mt3b, I don't know if I ever posted to you before... but I've kept up with it all.

You're a beautiful and courageous woman. You're in my thoughts.

GC

It's boundary setting time. Physical and emotional. Changes the locks, change the phone numbers, change passwords and change bank accts. Pack up D23B's stuff and put it in the garage. Get a good lawyer and protect yourself and your children.

Take care of yourself physically and emotionally. Get lots of rest, exercise, eat well, go out with friends, grieve for your dad with the support of friends. See a IC if you can.

[ November 22, 2004, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: mgm ]

I am sorry for you. And I must say this: All women who have sex with a married man are whores plain and simple in my book.

But, although these "other women" are cut from the same cloth as prostitutes, they are even more stupid than prostitutes because they do not make any money off the sex they have with the married men.

At least a common prostitute makes money for her efforts. The stupid other woman ****** around with the married man and has sex for free! They give it away! And ruin many lives while doing it!

What could be more stupid? A cow or sheep? A farm animal? I doubt it.

NOTHING, no living creature on earth, is more stupid than a woman having sex with a married man. Nothing. (Except a married man having sex with a woman not his wife. Or a married woman having sex with a man not her husband. Or anyone else having affairs.)

I hope you PLAN B him right out of the ballpark!

[ November 22, 2004, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

My dad died this morning about 2:30 AM...I know he is in a better place now!

Dear M23b,

Please accept our deepest sympathies for you and your family.

hugz,
L.

[ March 17, 2005, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Dad came back in and asked if he could sleep in the guest room <hr /></blockquote>Maybe even in fogland he can see that living with OW's mom isn't too appealing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You're on the right track me thinks!

Take good care of yourself right now...praying for you and yours...hugs....

My heart is with you today Kandi.
There is nothing we can say.
But please find a little comfort in the people who love and care about you here.

Dearest Kandi,

Your daddy is now at peace and in the arms of angels. I mourn your loss and you are in my thoughts and prayers. I suspect that things are not over with Dt3b....but they really do NEED to be over for now while you have some time to grieve and regroup. You will feel tempted to call him and tell him that your father has died and throw it in his face....DON'T. Let him find out on his own. Let him feel the full impact of his actions without prompting from you. Gather the folks who care about you around you for now...and leave him out of this and the impact will be greater and show him that you are strong enough to handle this without him....just as OW could be strong enough to handle pregnancy without him if she wasn't so immature and selfish. She has her MOTHER afterall doesn't she?....unlike you...who must also help your grieving mother. Let the situation speak for itself....say nothing to him.

(((((((((((((((((kandi))))))))))))))))
I'm so sorry for you loss dear.

I know that nothing that I can say will bring much comfort but let me say I am sorry for your loss. I know what you are going through since I also lost my father but it really is a relief to see the suffering end.

You really are an amazing woman. I marvel at the love you have shown your Dad and your H. When I see a person of your strength and courage it makes me wish I had that strength. I feel sorry for myself and then when I see what you have to go through, I realize my problems are not so bad after all.

Please take care of yourself and god bless you! Also start living a new life now and make it a happy one. You sure deserve it!

Dear Kandi,

I am so sorry for the loss of your dad. You have lived through the worst of circumstances all these months. You showed grace and courage. If you made any mistake it was in having too much love, trust, and forgiveness in your heart. Throughout your deep pain you always were willing to take Ed back. You believed in the power of redemption, and believed when he would tell you he changed. You lived with faith, hope, and love. Unfortunately Ed made the decision to turn away from what could have been the greatest gift he ever received in life.

The sadness and anticipation of watching your dad die is behind you. You will miss him terribly, but his pain is behind him. He will always be with you, supporting you. You will have family and friends around you. Dad will be living in the muck he created. Everyone here, including Dr. Phil can see his future. It's too bad he is not able to.

Please accept my love, hugs, and prayers for you and your family. CV

May your father always be as vivid in your mind as he is right now.
I am so sorry he has passed. Peace to him.

I don't blame you for your reaction with your H. He didn't step up to the plate of meeting this EN of yours and he should have known better.

Focus on your giving the boys positive experiences and a calm environment. They need that SO desperately right now.

Hang in there ... this storm shall pass like many others. {{{(((hug)))}}} -rh-

Kandi, I've been thinking about your situation since I read about your father's passing. My head shakes in disbelief in your H's behaviours.

I'm not saying that this marriage can be saved, or not saved. This goes WAY beyond that.

He knew your father was gravely ill. He contributed to making it even more difficult in a time when you needed somebody to lean on.

And, in times of your foul moods (hey, you deserved every one of them) he didn't step back and try to empathize with what put you there. Most people wouldn't handle the EMR/pregnancy situation alone very well. Add to that the stress of watching your father slowly and painfully die. And he expected WHAT from you....doting loving wife to make HIM feel better. To Hell with that.

So he walked out the door. He couldn't even wait till your Dad passed away. He's a physician, certainly he had a clue that it was only days/weeks away. IF he had to leave, could he not have got you through the funeral, and some "catch your breath" time in between. Could he not have been there to hold you while you cried, to tuck you into bed when you were exhausted, to spend quality time with the boys so you could recover from this without ALL of the responsibility sitting on your shoulders.

I don't know the situation between him and his OW. Is it love? I have NO idea.

But, he was in the middle of a family crisis. Now his boys will CLEARLY remember that their father walked out of the door on the day their grandfather died. They lost their Dad and their Grandpa in one night. I just cannot imagine how that will play in their minds in the future.

If he left to be with OW at some point after this crisis, and IF it was done with some sense of compassion for them and their feelings, then in the future, even though they hurt a lot at the time, they would be able to perhaps still respect him.

He took things WAY OVER THE LINE by walking that way. And without a goodbye to the kids. And while Grandpa was taking his last breath.

I honestly have no idea what he sees when he looks in the mirror. Does he think he is a misunderstood soul? Does he think he deserves every happiness, no matter who gets trampled in the process?

Again, I have no idea whether a marriage with this narcissist is worth your trouble Kandi...but only the very worst kind of human spirit would have allowed this mess to continue to play out the way it has.

Kandi, put him aside. Deal with your grief. Hug your boys. Recognize that even though he left in the "worst possible way", he is gone, and after the grieving your life will improve.

Go for walks Kandi, to help push depression away.

This is the worst case of abandonment that I've seen in a long time. And, from a man SO SMART!!! (tongue in cheek)

If his OW has any compassion, she'd be ripping him up one side and down the other for walking out on his family under those particular circumstances. I hope she is. I'd guess she's not. Sad, very sad.

Mom,

Sorry about your Dad, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

Don't even think about DT3B, he is showing you what kind of man he really is. Would you be able to love and live with someone who checked out on you when you needed him most? He could have put himself on back burner to help you deal with this but he didn't. That says a lot about him, doesn't it?

Love your kids, and most importantly love yourself. One day you will wonder why you put up such a fight for this man of little character. Your life will be blessed with someone that will really deserve you. You will be happy and your Dad will be smiling down on you.

Cathy

MT3B,

I'm so sorry about your father's death. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your whole family.

Boy, did CV55 hit the nail on the head with this one. I agree completely. And so will DT3B if he ever gets out of that thick fog.

CV55 wrote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Unfortunately Ed made the decision to turn away from what could have been the greatest gift he ever received in life. <hr /></blockquote>You are a strong, beautiful and gracious woman who was loving and forgiving to your H. Anyone who is able to forgive adultry is giving the WS the greatest gift. I never really thought of it that way.

I agree with the person who said not to call him to tell him that your father died this morning. Let him find out on his own. The guilt should devestate him.

Hugs to you and those beautiful boys.

ng

My condolence to you Mom...

My best ally, my mother in law died last week. She was 75. Even that did not jolt WH out of his fog.

You have fought long and hard for WH.

I want to share with you my experience about plan B...do not do plan B when you are angry and hurt. Do plan B because you feel calm and you need a break from WH's action.

I know plan B says cut off all contact with WH but i think you should always keep the communication lines. You must keep the lines open with boundaries. Boundaries mean if he does anything like speaking or showing any hint about OW...tell him gently that you dont want to see him and call again another day when he is prepared to respect your boundaries...Be loving but tough.

Do not expect that plan B will get him back quick. Be prepared for a long haul...sometimes they come back fast and sometimes they dont...

Do not lose track of your objective.

Hugs to you..

I am grieving for you. Forget Plan A, Plan B and Dr Phil. You just need time to grieve, to support your little boys and your mother.

I think you might need a proper separation. I don't think you'll find space in your heart or head for your WH at the moment. There is so much emotional damage now. I just want to say how very sorry I am for your loss. It is plain for us all to see how much you loved your dad.

I'm going to pick up the phone tomorrow and tell mine I love him. TT

(((((Kandi)))))

On your other thread I responded with condolences for the loss of your dad. On this thread I want to respond with more thoughts toward your marriage.

At this time of grief and emotional loss, I would suggest that you take out some time for yourself. This is no time to be making lifechanging plans or decisions, because YOU, our dear Kandi, are in a world of hurt.

I would suggest that you put a moritorium on marriage stuff and focus on yourself and the business of making arrangements for your Daddy and caring for your Mom. Frankly, Ed and his OW are not even on your list of priorities--let them wait as you have done for so long. In a nice, civil way, just change the locks, ignore any phone calls, and block email FOR A WHILE. During this time of mourning, take care of yourself. Give yourself some soothing tea, warm baths, soup, and rest when you can. CARE for yourself. Be kind and loving and gentle to yourself. Worry about them later, and if they "can't wait" too bad!! Care for your Daddy. Give him a proper funeral and find him a resting place that he would love. Visit him and talk to him, and listen for him to talk to you. CARE for your Mom. She is also no doubt tired, grief-stricken, worried, afraid, lonely, and exhausted physically and mentally and spiritually. Give her soothing tea and soup too. Let her rest when she can. You two women can lean on each other and help each other get through this.

THEN...when you are good and ready and have given proper respects to your Daddy, and you feel good about the care you have given yourself and your Mom...THEN turn your thoughts and attention to D23B and his OW. Hey, I'm sorry. He made his bed of doggy doodoo and he can lie in it awhile. He is a grown man, destroying his wife and children, and at this point he can fend for himself for a while! If he tries to guilt you, as an expert on Jewish guilt, I suggest you don't even take it. If he has to crash on a buddy's couch because no one will "take him in" well WAAAAAAHHHH. Too bad you made the choices you made and have to live with the consequences now.

Kandi, we love ya. Care for YOURSELF. Care for your Daddy and pay him proper respects for the man, husband and father he was. Care for your Mom. Be kind and loving and gentle to YOURSELF.

CJ

Kandi,
Through all of this I have admired how you have been there for your dad. You could have allowed the situation with Ed to dominate your entire life. But you didn't. You had a battle on your hands, but you fought for your desire and right to be there for your mom and dad. If you had missed being there for your father throughout his last journey, you could never have gotten that time and experience back. I honor you for having the strength to make that choice. You could have allowed your conflict with Ed to give you "permission" to not be there for your father. Afterall, one can only handle so much "loss" at a time. The reality is that Ed will still be around to "fight another day".

Isn't it hard to know that our WSs know how to behave differently, to treat us in a loving way...but no longer choose to do it? It would almost be easier if they never had the "skills", so we wouldn't set ourselves up to expect anything different from them. But knowing it's there...somewhere...deep inside them..makes it easy for us to hold out hope that the person we knew and loved will come back again. It reminds me of when my xWS was caught up in addictive drinking and drugging. When he was sober, he could be such a wonderful person. So, I knew he had it in him to be that way. But with his addiction, he constantly chose his alcohol and drugs over being the loving supportive person he could be. I remember saying once, that I almost wished he had been involved with another woman, because then I might at least have a chance of competing. I was no competition for the drugs and alcohol. Me and my big mouth! He had been clean and sober for 6 years when he had his affair with a 21 yr old ( he was 47) he met at his AA/NA meetings. They now have a 2 1/2 yr old son with Down Syndrome..still have never married each other. Afterall, the OW had "nothing in life, no one to care about her..etc." And he "couldn't let their baby live on the streets." I, too was willing to explore having the OC in my life. At least we shared no children together. That's got to make it extra hard. His 20 yr. old son did say "Dad, I'll always love you, but I've lost all respect for you." And his 17 year old daughter said " BS, you've got more class in your little finger than the OW will ever have!" But the bottom line is, that this was the man I loved, and something in the OW appealed more to him. Nothing anyone said could make that pain go away.

Blessings on you, you mother, and your sons. Work things out in your time, with your priorities, when you feel strong enough..It's your life...and only you can decide how it will work best for you. The rest of us are just outsiders looking in, trying to be helpful. We are not in your shoes..we may have gotten them from the same department, but we're not walking in yours.

M23B--

I just wanted to add my condolences with the others on the passing of your father. May he rest in peace and may God give you, your mother, and your 3 precious boys and other family members strength and comfort in the days ahead.

Dear mom,

I had a thought today, thinking back on my dad and his actions, which I thought I'd share with you. I don't know if this will help, but Dt3b and my Dad have a lot of similarities, and as you know, my dad ended up with OW, to everyone's disgust.

It strikes me that your WH and my dad share a common "foggy" thought - they both think they are taking the moral high ground by leaving their families to "take care" of the OW. I know that sounds twisted, but it IS the way my father thought, and still thinks, even now. He never saw OW as a manipulator - he saw himself as the person who had to salvage her from the mess she was in - its part of his "white knight doctor" mentality. More importantly, his OWN self-esteem was destroyed by what he was doing to his wife and family. In his demoralized mind, the ONLY way he could bolster his own self-esteem was to act the part of rescuer of the OW. The fact that he ruined his children's lives and left the wife he loved and who loved him was the price paid for his mistake. He chose to paint himself as a martyr "I made a mistake and now I have to live with it", as if he had awarded himself a medal for this action. Significantly, he later became an alcoholic. This is addictive co-dependency behaviour. It's no accident that his own father was an alcoholic.

Obviously, to someone who is not in the fog, this is twisted thinking - how can you claim the moral high ground by leaving your wife and children? But to a person with addictive tendencies who is having an affair, he feels so low about himself that this actually looks like "up" to him.

I know this is no comfort to you at all. But it is my intuition that this is a window into what your H might be thinking.

Again, I'm so sorry for what you are going through and I'm praying for you and your boys.

LIR

Mom -

First off ((((((Kandi))))) I am sorry about you losing your dad. My mom passed 4 years ago this December (and yesterday was her Bday) and I know the grief that you are feeling. Like you, I was able to be with her in her last weeks and days and that does give me comfort. Know he knew you were there and loved him til the end!

I also think of you everyday and the struggles with Dad. I have read and watched this struggle and cannot fathom what it must be like. Meanwhile I b*tch and moan on recovery about DFW and he is here for me. Thanks for putting things in perspective for me at times.

You are a wonderful, strong, beautiful loving woman. Your children need you. they need a stable place to call home. Dad cannot provide that. YOU can!

Know that you are in mine and DFW's prayers everyday. May God give you the strength and blessings to get through this!

Hugs!!! Fraggles

Mom -

You and your family are in my prayers.

Carol

Kandi,

Hoping you are finding some peace on this holiday as you grieve the loss of your dad. I hadn't read this update until now and, of course, like everyone else, urge you to protect yourself and the boys from any more chaos.

I liked wath FaithfulNew said: treat yourself and your mom to creature comforts and gain a strong footing.

You deserve a break.

~ Snow

Some friends of ours invited us over today. As I posted on my other thread, the service yesterday was beautiful. The music played was

"Go rest high on that mountain"...played at the beginning

"We'll meet again"...thank you to whoever found that song for me...

"I'm already there"...my tribute to my dad

"Tears in heaven"
"I will remember you"

Dad stood up at the podium with me while I read the Eulogy. WE visited Daddy today. The alien left a while ago cuz he has an ER shift tonight and tomorrow...

Bottom line is that he screwed up and got caught AGAIN...

So, what do I do now...I have already kicked him out of the house...did I over react? MAYBE!!!, but dangit, I AM NOT going to live this way. He says to me, "just dont file for a divorce" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Well, what the heck does that mean? Dont file for a DIVORCE????

CJ...WE gave my dad the most wonderful service we could have...I am taking care of my mom and she me...We are going to go shopping tomorrow and take the boys to see Polar Express

LIR...makes perfect sense to me what you said...you heard dad on TV... OW is in a DESPERATE situation! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> DANG...I was never in a DESPERATE situation when I was PG...WOW, that's gotta hurt the ego <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I wonder, just wonder what goes thru a WS's and an OW's mind for that matter, who have been on national TV tellng their story and then go BACK to the OW....what will everyone think once they hear this from ME in a few months. And yes, I will go back in a few months for an update.

He knows why he isn't home now...he knows...I will miss him, but I will move on...I will make our life as normal as I posibly can for me and my boys. I lost my daddy and my H on the exact same day! Hard to believe. Hard to believe that I called him at the moment my dad died the first time and he was tlaking to the OW...(he died twice that day...the first time he came back to life for some unknown reason only GOD will know, but he did)...

I told him I had no intentions of filing for divorce as long as he is NOT in contact with the OW...did you know he was already back in contact with her when I said this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I just cannot imagine a woman tkaing somone back like him after he goes on TV and insults her lke that...He laughed when I said she lives at home...he said she was desperate...WOW! She really must be desperate...Well, I can still look at MYSELF in the mirror each morning...I can still hold my head up high and walk out my front door! YUP, that's me...I can do that...

I am hoping to go to Disney Land for Christmas...I will take my mom with us and celebrate the new year with Mickey and co...

I could not get thru the most difficult time in my life without all my MB frineds. tHank you so much...

Much love,
kandi

Kandi,
Please read my posts under conversation on the private forum. I feel like I fell down a chute. Now my H is willing to go through Harley's program, and I don't know if it matters any more.

You don't seem to have gotten to that point yet -- God knows why! What you need to do is file for divorce to protect the financial support of your children while making it clear to him that the door is open to reconciliation. At this point, it may make sense to say that you need to relocate and have him file a restraining order against OW if she contacts him again. There are ways....

Please do let us know when you go back on the dr phil show.

Cherished

Thanks Cherished...I will have to read that thread when I have a bit more time and my mind is a bit clearer..It looks pretty long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I know I shouldn't make any final decisions at this moment...at this time of my life...My gosh though, I have been dealing with this for almost a full year...how much more can one endure?

I just dont know what to do...I know what to do thta is best for the kids? But what is best for ME? I need to just let him go...I cant live with sharing my H for the rest of my life...NOPE didn't sign up for that...and he knows that...

I know him and i know he will use the fact that *I* kicked him out as his ticket to see her

"well, you kicked me out, what was I supposed to do"

he doesn't see the reason WHY he got kicked out...

MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, IF he can live up to my boundries then we can reconcile...but I will set some high boundries this time...I need to come up with a list...and yes I WILL proceed with the divorce as to PROTECT my children...do you hear that DAD..PROTECT OUR children...I will NOT let that woman take what is our childrens...like I said to DT3B before..I willlive on the streets if I have to, but I will be damned if our kids will...And if it takes a divorce to protect those kids, I will do it.

does filing for divorce give him the right to go back with the OW? NOOOO, it does not...just as the big man said "You need to finish THIS relationship FIRST before you start on another one"...PERIOD!

BUT, in his mind, he has said it does...he said that when I spoke to the lawyer, that meant it was ok for him to speak to her... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

So, I have huge dicisions to make in the upcoming year? gonna need lots of support...from everyone..

EVERYONE...ML, WAT, PEP, ARK...everyone...let me have it...tell me what you think...go on..give it to me...

m23b

"he will use that fact that I kicked him out as an ticket to see her"

Ticket = excuse, and all excuses are of equal value..did you have a preference? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

"well, you kicked me out, what was I supposed to do?"

What he is supposed to do depends entirely on where he wants to go.

"he doesn't see the reason why he got kicked out"

Do you really believe that?

"I will not let that woman take what is our childrens"

Right on! So what are you doing now/today to secure their future?

"he said that when I spoke to the lawyer, that meant it was ok for him to speak to her."

Transparent emotional blackmail..however, the reverse holds true, no? Since he spoke to her, I guess your hands are tied, you'll have to speak with your lawyer as per his stipulations. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Noodle

Hey noodle...thanks for the laugh...first time i have laughed in about 5 days...except for the day of my dad's funeral when the yellow jacket was chasing me across the parking lot and I threw my bag across in front of an oncoming car...Then when I got IN the car, my car, the yellow jacket was on my moms purse <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> that was pretty funny...

Really, I enjoyed, your post...

so what am I doing TODAY to secure my childrens future...nothing since I am still in SAT...I took them to see The Incredibles though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I will however be contacting my lawyer when I return to town to SECURE the childrens future...and I KNOW that if dad is reading and i Know he is...he would want the same thing. although he says he would always support me and the kids financially if the court gives that damn BI*CH everything, then what is left for us...sorry, but if that is the only way to secure our future...gotta do it...

I'm still laughing..thanks noodle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"he said he would always support me and the kids financially"

He also said he would love, honor, cherish, and forsake all others.

Words are meaningless and forgettable..depeche mode

Noodle

you are right noodle...that is why I am seeing a lawyer and why I SAW one a week ago... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

From what I saw here in Minnesota, when you go to a lawyer, it's all about money. How much money does it take to run a household with three children? Child support is a set percent, and alimony is the difference between what child support is and what you can reasonably expect to need to run your household. That's in Minnesota, not Texas.

Save receipts. Is he out of the house?

Cherished

Mom -

Now is the time for you to take care of yourself. Unfortunately, Dad is still addicted, although he doesn't realize it. You have been through too much (Believer hugs Mom, and pats her on the back).

I wouldn't do anything right now. Just relax, and recuperate. I still have a lot of hope for your family (and even Dad). This addiction stuff is tough.

I kicked him out of the house last Sunday, the night my dad died. Actually BEFORE my dad died when I confirmed from the last number dialed on the phone it was HERS! WHat a dork! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I'm not gonna say anything on here, but I do know that I will be taken care of, rightfully so, when it comes time for the divorce...Dang, I followed this man around the freakin world and contry for 12 years...supported him thru thick and thin...spent countless, sleepless nights while he went thru residency and also moonlighted...I also supported him on the job he accepted in this God forsaken city I am stuck in even though I didn't want to move here...supported him when he quit the group he was in and decided to go solo...And I even supported him in his decision to take on the directorship of those DA*N Nursing Homes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> all for what???

Well, it is now time to bathe my son's and time for mommy to go to bed...I hope <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I'm glad he's out. You deserve better.

geez I swear will he never learn....well his loss your gain.....and I know you've heard that said from many people....now as for the "legal matter" from experience like i said you have 3 children compaired to the wicked B!tch of the souths 1 who isn't born and YOU are the wife who has been left...Judge will definatly favor you over a slutty mantrapping mistress *read that dad and evil wench <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> *....and I swear woman if you go to disneyland and don't come to say hi I will be very VERY insulted <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .....but anyways I have now joined the ranks with treereich....my WH is no longer the object of need and want I care to chase after or plan A or even plan B anymore....one day *after starting AD's* I was sitting there and had this wake up call....It just hit me.......I have been sitting here for 3-4 months crying and being depressed over his sorry cheating A$$.....and what for to be miserable...HELL NO...No more I say....I had 6 different guys ask me out and turned them all down because I was so devoted....and the depression I had been slipping into well it was making my every waking moment horrible...so I got up off my duff and have been mostly enjoying raising my son...we have SUCH a good time together....he is the best date i've ever had....we have great convos *toddler giberish mind you*...and after the date I get so much love....hugs and kisses and giggles.....so we have been having a great time together making memories on our own...visiting museums and aquariums and such....and then something spectacular happened....I meet a guy....and I really like him....but if anything is to happen it won't for awhile we are taking it slow...as we both just got out of long relationships...and both had our hearts stomped on....but I really think he's amazing and he knows about my son and thinks he is cute as a button and can't wait to one day meet him......so see mom good things can happen.....I know karma will rule out in the end....something amazing and fun and happy and ubberly good will happen to you...and dad...weeelll lets just say karma works both ways *evil grin*....*hugs* take care girl

[ November 26, 2004, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: missinghimterribly ]

Mom...I know that you are hurt and hurt beyond words. Just one advice to you...do not act on something when you are hurt and angry.

Do not divorce because you are angry and hurt. This is not the right thing to do. You might regret it later.

Be absolutely calm when you decide on something like this.

You can do a legal separation of something but dont do divorce yet. Not now...not when you are hurt. Grief for your dad and then grief for the lost of your marriage. Dont rush.

I did the same thing like you did. I used the same excuse to protect me and my DD financially blah blah...we divorce them because this is what our WS DO NOT want us to do and we know this will hurt them. Divorce will not get WS back. Patience will.

You are very confuse now....take time to relax and cool down.

I have done everything and my signed divorce papers are now sitting on the table. Only then did my own cloud of pain cleared and i realise that this is not the path i want to go on...at least not yet. I am now taking a sort of cooling off period to think. I feel you should do the same...

Take care

<blockquote>quote:<hr />geez I swear will he never learn....well his loss your gain.....and I know you've heard that said from many people <hr /></blockquote>His loss is no one's gain. Everyone is hurt and everyone suffers.

Dadto-no-one's actions inflict pain to all involved.

((((Momto3boys))))Peace to you.

Susan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"he said that when I spoke to the lawyer, that meant it was ok for him to speak to her."

Just trying to put some perspective here...and correct me if my memory is not correct....but hadn't he already left you at the time you hooked up with that old boyfriend for your "inappropriate, but NOT an affair" emails with your old boyfriend???? Were you not called a bunch of nasty names for that????

Good for the goose, good for the gander, seems to only apply to HIM????

I'm not surprised he hasn't been here lately. HE KNOWS that he has been a cad. His pregnant OW is no doubt giving him all of the ego boosting he needs. He is "finding himself" at the expense of his wife and 3 beautiful sons. There's no defense that anybody would buy on this one...not on this board...and not in real life (except for those in OW's world, who would see his "sticking by her" as somehow noble).

Dr. P was correct, he has to finish off this relationship before moving forward with this next one. That fact that he is fence-sitting "do not file for divorce Kandi" is unfair to EVERYBODY in this situation...except for himself of course....he's buying time to see how the cards fall before he makes a commitment. Unfair to you, your kids, your families.....and even unfair to his pregnant OW.

I fear for this man's emotional future. He's made a major mess of many lives. Let's see what he is made of. Will he continue to be a [censored] in the divorce proceedings? Will he be hateful to you Kandi? Will he try to make it up to the boys "somehow" (and I don't know how...but honesty and willingness are part of that). Is he up to the task of mending the wounds that he has bestowed?

Kandi, want to say that I am glad you were able to recognize a little levity at your father's funeral (with the yellowjacket incident). Your Dad would have wanted you to have the ability to laugh, even though broken-hearted.

How are your boys doing with Dad out of the house AGAIN? Even if he decides to stay in the marriage, and deal with his OC responsibly, my thoughts are that he should NOT live in the family home for quite awhile. He yo yo'd in and out...and I don't think it's fair to you or the boys to have to worry about the next yo yo trip out of the door.

My thoughts are with your family as you deal with this.

Thank you to all who have replied...JanetS, actually we haven't even been home since he has been out of the house...my dad passed THAT night, so we have been in SAT since then. We go back tomorrow (sunday). It will be very difficult on the boys, but he has made his bed and I feel he needs to sleep in it for a while.

I am not sure WHY he doesn't want me to file for the D...all his actions tell me otherwise. He says he loves me and I do believe him, but I have also said I will not share my *H* with anyone else...Right now he is a WH, not a H as orchid would say and I have to agree with her.

I am not going to *FILE* for the Divorce yet, but I will get all the paperwork going. Doesn't mean I have to file...I know I must grieve for my dad, and I really dont think THAT has hit me yet...the fact that he is not here anymore hasn't set in yet. Once again, the alien has made it a priority for me to focus on HIM and not anything else. hard NOT to...

MHT, as much as I appreciate your post and your enthusiasm for meeting another man in YOUR life, I will not go there. Just as the BIG man said "you have to finish THIS relationship before moving onto the next"...I never had any intentions on having an affair with another man...those emails were just that, emails...I never met with that old Boyfriend...

Two wrongs dont make a right and I am still married...no matter what the circumstances are, I am still a married woman and I will not be meeting any other man. I will however have fun with my boys. I am in no hurry whatsoever to meet another man. If I did, it would only be out of hurt and anger, thus draggin another person in the mess of things that my H has creeated.

So my goal for this week is to get ready for xmas, and get back on a schedule for the kids.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am not sure WHY he doesn't want me to file for the D...all his actions tell me otherwise.<hr /></blockquote>To me, looking in from the outside... his actions say he doesn't want a divorce. He wants a wife and family and a mistress and a family.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He says he loves me and I do believe him,<hr /></blockquote>What "love" means for him right now ---> he gets some of his needs met with you

... What love does not mean for him ---> interest in meeting your needs.

His definition of love is what feels good for him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> but I have also said I will not share my *H* with anyone else<hr /></blockquote>Unfortunately, you've not lived up to these words, hence you lack credibility in your resolve.

In fact, you've been sharing him for quite some time.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />...Right now he is a WH, not a H as orchid would say and I have to agree with her.<hr /></blockquote>Yes... here's an example...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Once again, the alien has made it a priority for me to focus on HIM and not anything else. hard NOT to...<hr /></blockquote>A generous man?... I think not.
A kind man? ... I think not.
A thoughtful, careful man? ...I think not.
A man of purpose and courage? ... I think not.

This "dad" (using the phrase "dad" in the least meaningful way) is not an example of "Manhood" you'd deliberately choose to marry if you were dating.

Alien indeed. Child-like need for attention. If you review the tapes of the TV show.. look at how little genuine remorse he shows... he's all blustery and making faces for the camera.

Weird.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So my goal for this week is to get ready for xmas, and get back on a schedule for the kids.<hr /></blockquote>I love your goal! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

[ November 27, 2004, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

***That fact that he is fence-sitting "do not file for divorce Kandi" is unfair to EVERYBODY in this situation...except for himself of course....he's buying time to see how the cards fall before he makes a commitment. Unfair to you, your kids, your families.....and even unfair to his pregnant OW.***

I've said it before and I will say it again -- why are you waiting for this man to "choose" between his wife and his girlfriend?

Kandi -- he is not ever going to do that. He has said flat-out that what he wants is BOTH of you, and that's exactly what he's got. He is not going to make a commitment to one or the other. The only commitment he will ever make is to himself and to having a varied sex life.

He doesn't necessarily have to have both women in the same house at once, though I'm sure he would like that. He'd fit in great with those polygamist families hiding out in Utah and Northern Arizona.

No, the back-and-forth thing that you have both been going along with for so long will suit him just fine. Either way, he's got two women to sleep with, and can just go from one to the other when he feels like it. (And I sure wouldn't be surprised to find that there is either a third woman, a series of one-night stands, or some prostitutes littering his trail, either.)

He has manipulated you both into going along with this. He stays with one of you for a while and professes fidelity and loyalty and love because that's what each of you wants to hear. Then, when he's itching to get a little taste of something different, he picks a fight, gets "kicked out" by the angry girlfriend or the evil wife, and goes straight into the waiting bed of the other one.

And in the meantime, both of you get angry and wring your hands and wonder why he won't "make up his mind" and "choose between you."

Again -- he is NOT going to "choose between you." He has chosen to live between two women, and he will pay any price to keep this arrangement.

What price are you willing to pay to live like this?

He has found out what you are willing to tolerate -- and no matter how hurt and angry you get, no matter what you say, you ARE tolerating it -- and now that he knows this, he will go right on digging in his heels and pushing you just as far as you will let him push you.

He did not go on the Dr. Phil show to get help. He went because it was just one more way to string Kandi along, tell her what she wants to hear, and keep her playing his game. And it worked, too, didn't it?

You say he is out of the house now. But for how long? He should NEVER be allowed back in unless and until he's been living on his own for at least six months, with NO other women in his life. Anything less is just playing his game of gee-it's-fun-to-have-two-women-to-have-sex-with. As long as you are willing to be part of his harem, that's all that you will be to him.

Kandi -- you tried, but you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. You cannot make a loving husband and father out a self-absorbed narcississt and modern-day polygamist.

Stop waiting for him to "decide." He has ALREADY decided, and he shows you that every day. YOU have to be the adult here and take this garbage out of your and your children's lives. Stop waiting for him to take out the trash. He is not ever going to do that. That's why your life stinks right now -- it's full of his garbage.

YOU have to stop telling him what he "should" do.

YOU have to tell him what YOU are willing to live with.

YOU have to say "Ed, you can do whatever you want, but *I* will not live with your garbage in my life." Then YOU do whatever it takes to get his mess out of your house and out of your life, and be amazed at what clean fresh air smells like.

If you are willing to tolerate being part of a modern-day harem, then keep waiting for him to "choose."

If you want to protect your sanity and protect your children and keep three young boys from seeing that yes, women WILL tolerate this sort of arrangement, then do what you have to do -- Plan B for real, and almost certainly Plan D -- to protect yourself and your family.

A year from now, you will look back on the Dr. Phil show tapes and wonder how you could ever have put up with this.

Good luck. Stop letting this cruel and selfish man run your life. Run it yourself instead.
Mulan

Thanks Pep! You are absolutely right! I have watched those tapes over and over again, even writing down on paper some of the things that stuck out like:

"I mean, I love my wife, I love my family. Yes. On the other hand, the other woman is pregnant. I still have feelings for her. I can't deny that. She is in a desperate situation in my view and it just pulls at me that I can't help her in any way,"

"And I'm also kind of withdrawing from that initial emotional intimacy which I had with her and just going back into my shell and just pondering the whole situation."

"I don't view it as all about me. I view it as there's two women that I care about and regardless of how the second relationship came about, it does not change the fact that I care about her and she's pregnant and she also has feelings as well. Now, granted my wife and my children and my entire family, everything I've ever built is there, yes. But that doesn't change that other fact."

remember his BODY language when he said that
one!

Dr. Phil asks Ed: "Do you or do you not want to do the right and best thing to try to get everything back in a healthy way?"

"If that's possible, yes."

Dr. Phil says: "Regardless of what your feelings are for this other woman, you absolutely must acknowledge that there is a right way and a wrong way to deal with emotions," Dr. Phil tells Ed. "You can't just do something because it feels good at the moment. I think it is patently unfair for a man or woman to compare some new, exciting, taboo, date, fantasy love with a relationship they've been in for years where there are kids, bills, a house to run, noses to wipe â€” that is just such an unfair, ridiculous comparison. You're not going to ever resolve this by saying, 'Well, do I feel better over here playing house with this woman that I don't have any responsibilities and history with?' Do you not think that if you leave here and go there that six, seven months from now she's going to have a screaming baby in one arm, a diaper bag on another arm and runny noses and all the same stuff you've got where you are now?

There's a right way and a wrong way to do this. And the first thing you've got to do if you're going to have any chance is you've got to cut off any contact with this woman unless [Kandi is] involved. If you want to talk to her about that child, then you do it with your wife there.

You cannot continue to work with that woman and save your marriage. Period. You've either got to sell the house and move or work in a different place or you've got to arrange your work schedule such that there is no contact."

"I've always wanted a girl"

"I still have feelings for the OW"

"I've always wanted a girl"

"I still have feelings for the OW"

These are just some of the things that stick out in my mind day after day and I have to keep going over them in my mind to remind myself...just a few minor things, you know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Hey, MT3B, glad your spirits are up. Loved the honey bee story (that's me! I hate the buggers!)

I, too, love your goal to oncentrate on the boys and have fun with them! That will do more good for them than anything else as they try to absorb again, once again, their father has abandoned them for another family (one that might not even be his!). Show them that the four of you can do just fine.

Divorce? Not to divorce? Because there is no legal separation in Texas I urge you to keep in close contact with your attorney. Keep getting those papers together and when he/she says, "Kandi, it is time to file in order to protect the boys' future," then follow her lead. If that is BEFORE possible OC is born and DNA test done, then so be it.

You can always remarry if Ed returns from the mothership, eh?

((((HUGS)))))

~ Snow

[ November 27, 2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]

Mulan, loved your post. I will smell the clean fresh air for a long time now! Like I said, he has made his bed, he can now sleep in it. You know, he gets mad when I talk of leaving him and going on without him...no wonder, I'm not letting him play his little game anymore.

I can still wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and see a strong woman with good morals and a head held high!

Snow, thanks for your support! Always!

[ November 27, 2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: momto3boys ]

MT3B,

I know you and DT3B are in a state of flux right now. He's out of the house, but you're not home yet, and everything is a little bit up in the air legally and all.

But do you think it is helpful to "talk" to DT3B through this board? I don't know, it makes me feel that when you post you are really posting for DT3B's benefit. Perhaps you should consider posting only on the private board? Or does dad have access to that board, too?

~ Snow

M2,

For the umpteenth time, you insist that you have "kicked him out". This is a very empty statement in that it infers that you are in control of the situation when in fact you aren't.

You have never kicked him out. He chooses to leave the house when it suits him. If leaving the house will keep the peace for the time being, then he will leave the house. If leaving the house will allow him to maintain both the M and the A then he will leave the house. He knows he'll probably be back in time to decorate the tree.

He is not a fogged out fence sitter being pulled back and forth between you and the OW. He is enjoying the comforts of M while also enjoying the OW on the side. He wants you to just accept this arrangement. He will continue to tell you what you want to hear and try and wear you down until you just throw your hands up in defeat. He is in complete control.

This A will most likely end as most do, when they each get over their infatuation for each other. Exposure of the A has already taken from them, the excitement of secrecy and taboo. Hell, it's been exposed on national tv. They can walk down Main Street together now if they choose to.
D2 never feared exposure. He almost seemed to enjoy it.

You can threaten D, you can "see" a lawyer, you can shuffle papers in and out of order, you can "kick him out" if that makes you feel in control but so long as you keep playing HIS game, he will continue to play you.

Take a look at where you're at today as compared to DD. With all the in-action you've taken, are you any closer to luring D2 away from the A and recovering the M?

Snow, I haven't been granted access tothat board despite the attempts to get on there. I will edit my post...I am not posting just for dad to read, but I do know he reads cuz he has told me...he gets mad because I tend to tell the truth on here and ask for advice and such...I was really just posting to let him know that he has no reason to be mad at me for doing what I feel is best for all of us. but you are right, I will edit the post...

***I was really just posting to let him know that he has no reason to be mad at me for doing what I feel is best for all of us.***

Why do you think you have to "let him know" anything?

Why are you still trying to control his feelings?

This is how he keeps stringing you along.

Your posting here should not have anything to do with him.

It should be about finding strength for *you* to get yourself and your children out from under his destructive influence, and to stop living your life while jumping through his hoops.

Until you can stop worrying about what he thinks, or what he thinks you think, this will never stop.

Go ahead. Be the "bad guy," if that's what he wants to call you for protecting your family from his toxic influence. Once you finally change the locks and tell him to get out of your lives, it should not matter to you whether his head explodes or whether he does the happy dance with his girlfriend.

As long at it DOES matter to you, this will go on and on and on.

The only thing that should matter is having peace and order and stability in your children's lives, and that will never happen as long as you care what he thinks.

Care about what YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN think. When are their feelings going to come first?

I think this is not so much about your getting him out of your life as it is about you getting YOURSELF out of HIS life.

There's a difference.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You know, he gets mad when I talk of leaving him and going on without him...no wonder, I'm not letting him play his little game anymore.
<hr /></blockquote>Sure you are...he is continuing to play it.

Here is where you are "letting" him...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am not going to *FILE* for the Divorce yet, but I will get all the paperwork going. Doesn't mean I have to file...<hr /></blockquote>The paperwork that you "get going" means NOTHING in the big scheme of things. The only thing that means is that you are gathering information...it does NOTHING to change the situation...and to stop the game playing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But do you think it is helpful to "talk" to DT3B through this board? I don't know, it makes me feel that when you post you are really posting for DT3B's benefit. <hr /></blockquote>Snow...

Those are some good points there. I also *feel* that is what is happening. Even the title of the thread is for his benefit...and for dramatic flair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I hate to see couples play out their dysfunctional marriages on the board...especially when the principles that the Harleys set forth in marriagebuilding have been tossed aside. I do not think that the Harleys had that in mind when they started the forums. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

JMHO
committed

I am sorry you feel that way comitted...it is people like YOU who hurt people in the long run...the reason I say I will not FILE for the divorce is because I am in a very fragile situation right now and If you would ever READ the posts you would see that yourself..but you choose not to...People have been kind to me on this thread and then you come along and make snide remarks as such...I will FILE for divorce when I am ready and when I have grieved properaly for my dad. It will take a while to get the paperwork ready anyhow...People have asked me NOT to file for that purpose...I am not in a frame of mind to made those sorts of decisions.

I have never in the past used this board as such to carry on with my H...however he has in the past...just recently as I recall...I left this board for a few months this summer just so he wouldn't read my posts. IF he wants to read what i have written on here even though it hurts him that is his chooice...I use this board to share my feelings...not in hopes that he would read them...

But you know, it is people like you who come on to my threads and say hurtful things and things that aren't true...whatever...

I really dont think I need to post here any longer...no matter what I do or DONT DO, no one will be happy with the outcome...

I kick him out, you people aren't happy

I say I see a lawyer, that's not good enough

I say I'm filing, that not good enough, I need to WAIT...

I say I'll wait, that's not good enough, I need to file

no matter what I say or do, it isn't good enough for you people.

So thank you to all who HAVE supported me in my journey to try to save my marriage, but I really dont think it is condusive for me to post here any longer...I need to get on with my life and that means leaving everything else behind, including this board.

Take care MB friends

kandi

MT3B: I think you are wise and right to wait to file. And for the reasons you cited. You have been through TOO much in TOO short a time. Life's big decisions can wait.

I respect your need to leave the board IF that is truly what you want to do. But, I think that most people here wish to support you in this awful journey. So, are you getting something from this board that helps you day to day. If the answer is yes (and I suspect it is), then try not to take somebody's harsh words to heart.

You said yourself, you are very fragile now. And in that fragileness you are also very sensitive. Things that are hurtful impact you more than they would normally.

I for one don't wish to see you leave. I think you will see tons of posts within 24 hours basically saying the same thing.

So if you do need to leave, then do so knowing that the vast majority of people here sympathize with what you've been through. And, dare I say that most people seem to have the utmost respect for you, because of your willingness to be so candid with this very personal situation in your life.

In life there will always be detractors. And their opinions are their opinions. But those opinions are just that, OPINIONS!

I hope you stay. Take a break if you need to. And leave if you need to. Just know that you are cared for very much.

Kandi,

Thanks for keeping us updated with your sitch. I am amazed at how remarkably well you are handling it all. The audience who saw you and your H on national TV had no idea how much you were going through in the background. I saw your dignity and grace shine through.

Please realize that when we post our sitch and feelings, some of us take it quite hard. Even personally sometimes and hurt as if it is against a close family member. I see that in many posts to you. Don't take that in a bad way. Their reactions are more than that they hurt for you and are quite angry at the WS and sitch.

Often we see a piece of what we experienced in the recent events of other BS' and the hurt comes back again. Yet we post over and over again. We think about leaving many times. The pain here is strong but so is the support. To be honest, I have seen stronger responses on SNL's threads than on yours (re: I did them myself - LOL!!!). I was sooo fed up with his antics. I wasn't posting them through his W to him but to him directly.

In many cases I see the posters venting about your WS but it is posted to you. Do you see that? I know you understand their feelings. When you look at it that way, it is easier to take their words and in many cases it can even be helpful.

When I used to post to SNL, Thinker (his W) would read it and it would help her. Believe me, I gave SNL a mental pounding at times because I knew he knew better. We all knew it.

Alas, in their case, he is still stuck out there in fogland..... yep one of MBs long time posters (banned a few times, though), he is still out there. The hurt to his family was immense. Recovery for them has been hard and his W stopped posting here. It made me sad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

As much as possible, don't let that happen to you. ok?

Take care my dear one. You have a lot of good things ahead of you and your help here has been greatly appreciated.

take care,
L.

I am sorry you feel that way comitted...it is people like YOU who hurt people in the long run...

Nothing I said was hurtful...at least not the way that I read it.

the reason I say I will not FILE for the divorce is because I am in a very fragile situation right now and If you would ever READ the posts you would see that yourself..but you choose not to

I did not say that you HAVE to file. I said that the comment YOU made about not playing his game isn't quite accurate. As long as you don't take action...the games will continue...bottom line. I could care less if you file today...tomorrow...next week...next month..next year. What I DID comment on was your claim to having STOPPED his game playing. You haven't stopped it. It continues everyday that NO legal action has been taken...and acted upon.

People have been kind to me on this thread and then you come along and make snide remarks as such...

People are kind...what you don't realize is that I was kind also. There is so much that could have been said...and I chose NOT to. You received both grace and kindness from me...in my post. Others said the same thing...why are MY words the ones that you choose to say are hurtful and snide?

I *feel* that the reason you get upset with my posts is because they do NOT focus on d23b and his actions. They focus on YOU and yours...or lack thereof.

If I were to jump on your bandwagaon and call him vile insulting names...or if I were to lash out like that toward the OW I guess then I would be considered "supportive"...huh?

The fact remains...this board was not created to allow a couple to sling DJs...LBs...and AOs at each other. Your posts are full of them.

JMHO
committed

Hello MT3B,
I am peaceandlove's H. Just wanted to say we watched Dr. Phil and gained some insight on your situation. Sorry about your dad. I hope he lived a full and bountiful life.
I am drawn by your resolve to not seek the company of another man. That strength in light of the place you are in emotionally is outstanding. It is a statement for those of us who know two wrongs don't make a right! That is not to say that we haven't thought about it or been tempted by the attention of another. It would be easy for me to give in to it. I have taken a stance like Dr. Phil, finish this one first before starting another. And I'm not done with this one so help me!
Life is about choices. We all must make them and then be held accountable for them. Too often people make the choice and want to shift the accountability elsewhere. This premise guides me as I make my choices in life. Anyone who doesn't feel accountable for their actions is vulnerable to bad choices.
I felt compelled to post here and offer encouragement to you. We all have strife in our lives and we can all help and learn from each other. Keep your focus and be strong!
God bless,RDL

Committed: maybe MT3B's response was 50% what you said, and 50% how you said it???

Considering the whirlwind of STRONG emotional stuff that has been her life lately (and we all understand that) PLUS the added stress of losing Dad, after watching him suffer, has made her very sensitive.

One poster jokingly said that it would be nice if she could wear a sign that said (paraphrased) "be nice to me, I buried my Dad this year". Well, Kandi buried her Dad only the other day. Kandi's H screwed up again, less than a week ago. There are times in people's lives when they need a soft, kind, gentle approach.

The "kick in the [censored]" stuff does have merit, when done at the right time.

Methinks your timing may have been off imho.

Methinks your timing may have been off imho.

I would agree with that had I thrown my comments out there when this wasn't the topic of discussion. The topic of the thread was about D23B...and kicking him out again...and about the OW being a *****...and about the marriage. This wasn't a thread looking for support and condolences on the loss of her Father. This thread was a vent and bash thread.

I didn't realize that unless I joined in the bashing and venting that it was insensitive to her need for understanding at this trying time in her life. Am I insensitive because I didn't join in the bashing and venting? Was I out of line by making it about her actions or lack thereof?

There is no sarcasm in those questions. I am puzzled as to why I am considered insensitive when I am simply responding in regards to the topic of the thread...which is the marriage.

She started the thread...and set the trend. I just happened to take the flip side of the situation.

Here is what I had to go on...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />EVERYONE...ML, WAT, PEP, ARK...everyone...let me have it...tell me what you think...go on..give it to me... <hr /></blockquote>You cannot ask for opinions and then want special consideration and sensitivity used. She specifically said EVERYONE...and I fall into that category. I was keeping it on track.

JMHO
committed

[ November 27, 2004, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]

Maybe I didn't explain myself well, though I'm trying to....

You have every right to your opinion. You have every right to express that opinion. And, you have every right to express that opinion in a genre that suits you.

I was just trying to suggest that Kandi's current emotional state might make have her NOT listen to your words as much, but notice only any Harshness she might hear in the way they were presented.

You do not have to jump on any "venting" bandwagon...if that is not what you feel you wish to express. Just don't be surprised when your words aren't taken in the manner you wished them to be perceived, due to (what I consider to be) ill-timing.

And, I'm not here to start a mini-argument over this. I'm trying to be sensitive to both sides. I just think that now is the time to "pull punches" (even if you believe those "punches" are well-deserved).

And, just so you understand, I'm not even necessarily disagreeing with all that you said. Much of it has merit (though I don't agree 100% with your thoughts). And, just cuz I don't agree with all of your thoughts, doesn't mean that I am right.

There is bound to be a lot of diversity of opinion here. I just think it's kinder to "feel out" the receiver of our words, and take into consideration their current state of mind.

That's all.

(feather held out for peace)

Hi M23B,

I wish you wouldn't leave because you got a couple of posts that made you uncomfortable. A break if you need it, but do come back. You will be missed by many if you leave. We all can benefit from learning from each other during the difficult times.

I've seen that you have also posted to some newbies and been helpful to them.

I believe everyone wants the best outcome for you and your situation; the best for all concerned.

Your current plan of action sounds like a good one to me given all you have been through of late.

[ November 30, 2004, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Trix ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I just think it's kinder to "feel out" the receiver of our words, and take into consideration their current state of mind.

That's all.

(feather held out for peace) <hr /></blockquote>Janet,

The only thing that I had to go on was her comment about telling her what we think...and to let her have it (which I assume is another way of saying give me what you consider hard cold truths). To ask for it...and literally demand it (which is how I took her wording) and then to call FOUL...and call me insensitive is puzzling to me.

Oh Well.... <feather accepted>.

committed

Honestly, how is a person supposed to respond to Mom's threads if they have to risk her wrath if she doesn't like their post? If it's not strictly a cheerleading post, the person is attacked as "mean."

I read committed's post and am frankly flabbergasted that she got such a response. Whatever happened to "thank you for taking the time to post, I will take it under consideration."

I realize that Kandi's dad just died, but she is acting the same today as she did 6 months ago when someone would post something she didn't like. Whats the difference?

Kandi, I find your situation heartbreaking and care very about you but there are many folks here, like me, who won't post to you anymore because all you want is a cheerleading squad, not objective advice from an unbiased source. All these cheerleaders are doing you no favors, Kandi. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I'm willing to bet a LOAD of money that the OW is NOT pregnant with a GIRL. She was not very far along when the ultrasound was done and usually ultrasounds will validate the presence of a penis, and sometimes there's one there that can't be seen in the image. I've just never heard of someone knowing THAT early in their pregnancy that the sex of the child was female.

I'd say the OW KNOWS that having a girl would give her that EXTRA little hold on Ed, so she's using that to her advantage.

Anyway, I wish I had a crystal ball, but I'm willing to stake $$ that the baby isn't Ed's and it isn't a girl.

(Very long-time lurker, here).

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I read committed's post and am frankly flabbergasted that she got such a response. Whatever happened to "thank you for taking the time to post, I will take it under consideration."
<hr /></blockquote>Hey Melody....

It's evident that you were raised "rite"...<my best southern drawl> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I have to admit that sure left me puzzled.

committed

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Morgaine:
 I'm willing to bet a LOAD of money that the OW is NOT pregnant with a GIRL. She was not very far along when the ultrasound was done and usually ultrasounds will validate the presence of a penis, and sometimes there's one there that can't be seen in the image. I've just never heard of someone knowing THAT early in their pregnancy that the sex of the child was female.

I'd say the OW KNOWS that having a girl would give her that EXTRA little hold on Ed, so she's using that to her advantage.

Anyway, I wish I had a crystal ball, but I'm willing to stake $$ that the baby isn't Ed's and it isn't a girl.

(Very long-time lurker, here). <hr /></blockquote>Morgaine,

So would you be willing to split the winning's? LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (just kidding) I have a maui coin to add to the pot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I thought about that also since the OW in my case pulled the same stunt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Harley's principle is to stay in Plan A for as long as you can without LBing. He says that women generally last no more than 3 weeks.

MT3B did what I certainly never could have. She has now started moving towards leaving. I think I was threatening for 3 years (starting shortly after the proposition), but then -- I meant it -- he said something "Do you want to argue about...?" and I crossed a love bank threshhold that was NOT the romantic love threshold.

Someone once posted to me not to go to Plan B until you are ready. People can advise, people can point out that Dad is stringing her along and of course doesn't want DV, but it needs to be a decision made when you are emotionally ready.

Mom, people here mean well. Most of us are in a mess in our marriages and trying to work things out.

I hope you come back, and I'll be checking to see you again on the Dr. Phil show!

Cherished

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Susan:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />geez I swear will he never learn....well his loss your gain.....and I know you've heard that said from many people <hr /></blockquote>His loss is no one's gain. Everyone is hurt and everyone suffers.

Dadto-no-one's actions inflict pain to all involved.

((((Momto3boys))))Peace to you.

Susan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Actually what I ment was he loses out on seeing his boys grow up....so it is his loss and moms gain...mom gets to spend all this wonderful time with her 3 gorgeous sons and make memories to last forever...and NO not everyone gets hurt...unless you purposly hurt them...things can be handled in a sistuation to make things quite a bit easier.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by momto3boys:

MHT, as much as I appreciate your post and your enthusiasm for meeting another man in YOUR life, I will not go there. Just as the BIG man said "you have to finish THIS relationship before moving onto the next"...I never had any intentions on having an affair with another man...those emails were just that, emails...I never met with that old Boyfriend...

<hr /></blockquote>NONONO....sorry damn everything I said is being misunderstood....I ment in the future FAR FAR from now....as in "if" things don't work out with dad....

*looks around worriedly**waves a white flag* ok ladies and gents lets call a truce before this discussion gets out of hand and someone really gets hurt....mmmkay *group hug* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Committed

for what it's worth..I wholeheartedly agreed with your post...

what started as a good-bye ended up in whaffling session...

while I'm not a huge proponent of co-dependency, I think we see a text book case. Go away then no come back. I know because I've been there and if not careful can catch myself slipping back into that thinking.

Marriage in of itself is a form of co-dependency but when we're tied to an unhealthy relationship that a normal person would easily walk away from, then I tend agree with those who espouse the idea. I have been a big supporter of MT3B but there comes a point where the games have to stop. Only a co-dependent person would question a desision to ask their husband to leave in such a situation. A non-co-dependent person wouldn't even consider their decision as inappropriate...and it wasn't inappropriate.

Just as Dr. Phil said, these children need no more of this!

I don't particularly want to witness this tit for tat manipulation..so I guess IT IS good-bye..for me at least...

Co-dependency -- tolerating bad behavior in the hope the other person will care for you

Interdependency -- caring for the other person while the other person cares for you.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a co-dependent person. It shows a strong belief in the goodness of the other person in the face of evidence to the contrary. Dad COULD wake up, especially if OW has an affair with someone else or the baby turns out not to be his.

Cherished

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cherished:

I don't think there is anything wrong with a co-dependent person. It shows a strong belief in the goodness of the other person in the face of evidence to the contrary. Dad COULD wake up, especially if OW has an affair with someone else or the baby turns out not to be his.

Cherished <hr /></blockquote>Cherished,

This is some major fog talk ya got going here. The whole idea behind the Harley concepts is to take action to protect yourself and the M from the damaging affects of the WS's actions. It's not about waiting around for the A to end or for the WS to have an epiphany.

To sit idly by, hoping that it will all just go away and things will return to what they were is non-productive. It does not protect the BS, it does not protect the M and it does nothing to sway the WS from ever doing it again.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cherished:
 Co-dependency -- tolerating bad behavior in the hope the other person will care for you

Interdependency -- caring for the other person while the other person cares for you.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a co-dependent person. It shows a strong belief in the goodness of the other person in the face of evidence to the contrary. Dad COULD wake up, especially if OW has an affair with someone else or the baby turns out not to be his.

Cherished <hr /></blockquote>With all due respect there may not be a post that I have ever disagreed with more (trust me, that is says a lot coming from me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). Please, anyone, tell me how someone really believe this? Cherished, if you really believe this I feel very very sorry for you. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> YOu are bound to be hurt FOREVER.

It is no wonder why "doormat" behavior is so prevalent on here?

Now, now, lemonman....

I think I understood what Cherished was trying to say. Some people are so giving that they end up being trampled on. But it isn't the fault of the person who is so giving....

Co-dependencyt, though, goes beyond being just giving... it feeds into bad behavior and allows it to continue, to the detriment of the giver.

Can we all just chill awhile? I am getting a headache!

~ Snow

P.S.: Lemonman.... do you think I make a good "doormat"?

[ November 27, 2004, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]

Co-dependency -- tolerating bad behavior in the hope the other person will care for you

I don't think there is anything wrong with a co-dependent person. It shows a strong belief in the goodness of the other person in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Cherished,

I say this with all good intentions..

Are you in individual counseling?

committed

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Snowbelle:
 Now, now, lemonman....

I think I understood what Cherished was trying to say. Some people are so giving that they end up being trampled on. But it isn't the fault of the person who is so giving....

Co-dependencyt, though, goes beyond being just giving... it feeds into bad behavior and allows it to continue, to the detriment of the giver.

Can we all just chill awhile? I am getting a headache!

~ Snow

P.S.: Lemonman.... do you think I make a good "doormat"? <hr /></blockquote>Uggh, here we go again..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...For the love of GOD !!!!!!!

Committed,

I believe you meant that, sincerely. But I don't thnk Cherished will and many others won't, either.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the written word is easily misunderstood.

(Snow sits back and waits for the fur to fly).

~ Snow

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Snowbelle:
 Committed,

I believe you meant that, sincerely. But I don't thnk Cherished will and many others won't, either.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the written word is easily misunderstood.

(Snow sits back and waits for the fur to fly).

~ Snow <hr /></blockquote>Snow,

Well...it is not my responsibilty to make sure that ALL the posters understand exactly what I am saying. I cannot guarantee that I will be understood by ALL the posters at the same time. So, forgive me if I don't waste time with needless words.

I have read Cherish's posts...and I read them when she posted under another name. I am familar with her story...and I do not think that it is out of line to ask her that question...given that knowledge.

Please do not make this out to be something mean.

committed

Originally posted by committedandlovingit:
Well...it is not my responsibilty to make sure that ALL the posters understand exactly what I am saying. I cannot guarantee that I will be understood by ALL the posters at the same time. So, forgive me if I don't waste time with needless words.

I have nothing against writing succinctly, but if your words are misunderstood by several people at the same time, I think you need to reevaluate your writing style.

And I guess I need to do the same as you did not "read" what I attempted to write.

I, too, am familiar with Cherish's posts, also under her old name... have read her story for some time. You can ask any question you like, but if you ask it in a way that is perceived as sarcastic, or uncaring, it won't have the affect that you hope.

I did not intend to make your comment out to be mean. Again, my writing style came up gooseggs on that one. I apologize.

~ Snow

[ November 27, 2004, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]

At risk of doing further damage here, I'd just like to say that I agree with ba109 - and I see lots of evidence of co-dependent behaviour between dad and mom here - I've had to struggle with co-dependency myself (1st marriage was to an alcoholic, father is an alcoholic, grandfather was an alcoholic), so I think I recognize the dynamics when I see them, and although dadt3b doesn't appear to be openly addicted to any substance, his behaviour is that of an addict. I also don't feel commited's post was in any way harsh, and I was surprised, but not surprised when momt3b took offence at it. I've been keeping up with her story, and she has "left" before when she received posts she felt were "not helpful". Like Melody said, if you receive a post that hurts you, for whatever reason, the most polite thing to do is to say "thank you for sharing that thought, I'll think about it...", not storming off the board in a huff.

Since I went through the scenario you are living through now, Kandi, as a child, I really grieve for you and your family. I respect you for trying so hard to keep your marriage from failing. I do realize that you love your boys as passionately as I love mine. No-one does a perfect job at trying to save a troubled marriage "Stellar plans A and B" are rare. The people here who post to you are trying to support you, and don't post just to "bash" you if you do something "wrong".

In all of this drama, the ones I really hurt for are your little boys. There's a lot of talk about you and your H, but very little about them - I don't talk about my sons on this board, either, that's private info. But I can't help but wonder just what all this is doing to them?

I think Dad's comment "I've always wanted a girl" - is the cruelest possible rejection of his own sons that I have ever heard out of the mouth of a WS. Does that mean that if the OW has a boy that he would come home, even if it were his? This is sick-talk big-time and it was broadcast on national television. What are your sons going to think when they hear those words coming out of his mouth? Does this man deserve to be a father to those 3 boys? Not in my book. He may have sired them, but he obviously doesn't value them, or have any consideration for their souls, their thoughts, their feelings, their self-esteem. For some fathers, kids are playthings - real cute in short bursts - say funny things, throw them around and rough-house with them for awhile. Real fathers see their children as much more than playthings.

No-one else has commented on this aspect other than to say that dad isn't behaving like a dad. I wonder what others think about this?

More than anything, I would like to know that you are doing your best to protect your sons from the emotional turmoil around them - I am sure that you are trying your best, and I hope this doesn't come over as a criticism of you, Kandi, it's not meant to. I've been through my own children witnessing scenes between me and H which they should not have and I know how hard it is to protect them from it.

Please be assured of my good wishes at all times.

LIR

Committed,
I am not offended by your post. My first name, even before I knew there was an A, was uncommitted. Then the A came out and I said I had also hidden a broken arm. One person quipped that my name should be shouldbecommitted. Another poster said that wasn't very nice, but I thought it was funny.

Yes, I'm in counseling -- 80 times since two months into the A. The 4th time was 3 hours after the broken arm. My H decided about a month ago to go to counseling.

Not to mention about 80 e-mail exchanges with Dr. Harley on the private forum.

I think interdependency is what makes marriages great. You depend on a spouse to meet intimate emotional needs of affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation, and recreational companionship. Another person must provide those to you.

I tolerated incredible abuse for the crumbs of attention that came my way. My therapist told me that she usually uses a V code (marital difficulties) initially and then is forced by insurance to use a mental health code after about 4 visits. She told me recently that she is still using the V code. She told me a year ago that "Tom's not in a place right now where the concept of care makes sense to him." I had less and less self-respect over the years, and that is changing. Like MT3B, I found I needed to have enough of a sense of self-worth and self-respect to not tolerate the treatment I was getting.

To my H's credit, he's now decided to follow the program, which means 15 hours per week of meeting each other's intimate emotional needs. I told him four years ago that I was "starved for affection". This morning, I got about an hour's worth of the gentle intimate affection that can only be given by a husband -- stroking my forearm, my breast, my back... It was wonderful.

As for MT3B, I think she has gotten to the point that she is no longer willing to accept the treatment she has gotten. I have a lot of hope for her. It's tough to face that only Dad can control his actions, and he has chosen to justify his behavior on national television. "Always wanted a girl." That is PATHETIC! What I see for him is that OW may have an affair on him -- the sooner, the better. That might wake him up to the cruelty of how he has been treating MT3B. She may be enraged at us, but her rage is really in recognizing that no matter what she does the ball is in Dad's court. She needs to get away from him because of his complete lack of care and regard for her and their children. I think the worst is soon to be over for her emotionally. It's hard to give up the idea that -- if you just do the right thing, if you just expose it, if you just get your H on the Dr. Phil show -- then everything will be OK, your H will wake up... Dr. Phil knew... He said that Dad wouldn't hear unless he was ready to... and Dad isn't ready to...

Cherished

[ November 28, 2004, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]

Just my 2 cents, but this has nothing to do with the sex of the OW baby. I don't think at this point it would much matter if the OC ended up being a boy, and not even proven to be D23.

It's all about his treatment of M23, their boys, the lengths at which he will go to justify his behavior, and continue to disrespect his wife and children.

Kandi....
Listen to me....and I don't want you to take this with a grain of salt...REALLY REALLY LISTEN. I have been thinking long and hard on this.

In theory...if you were able to go 100% DARK right now...and I mean DARK .... visitation with the boys can be monitored through a law guardian so OW doesn't get to them, but D23 can still have a relationship with them.

DARKNESS...through all the holidays. THIS is the driving factor of whether or not your M will make it.

I really don't care if I get any 2X4s right now..but playing devil's advocate....

IF you don't go dark.... and you FORCE D23 into some type of POJA as to contact... the holidays will AGAIN be a driving factor.

He can't spend the xmas and new year's holidays with both families can he ?

Someone is going to end up pretty hurt. And someone is going to end up at the end of their rope.

M23...do you want that person to be YOU ?

Gosh..I hope you realize what I'm trying to say here.

If he makes no attempts to make his way back into the home, that says... my wife and my boys can suffer through the holidays as a result of my actions.

Knowing DAD...he will go with... it's only due to M23 throwing me OUT...that my wife and boys are suffering through the holidays as a result of my actions.

I'm saying THIS. You threw him out...if he USES THIS AS A TICKET TO SEE THE OW, AND SPEND TIME WITH THE OW...HE HAS NO INTEREST OR CONCERN FOR HIS FAMILY.

If he were truly concerned and wanted his family..he's be walking the walk. PROVING NC, PROVING he'd do whatever is necessary.

By seeing OW...because you threw him out... gives him a ticket to continue having an A ??

NO..... let him lie with this for awhile Kandi.

This is your only chance to get YOURSELF together.

MY HOPE...is that you finally look in the mirror and see your WORTH...and realize with every ounce of your being...that YOU DESERVE BETTER. And damn it...if ED doesn't see it...someone else will.

Hugs to you sweetie.

Just to clarify - I didn't mean that I accepted dad's excuse "I always wanted a girl", or that this statement has any relevance to the situation (except in his foggy mind). It's a perfect example of twisted thinking "fog-talk".

What I meant is that it is an exceptionally cruel example of fog-talk in that it relates to, and has impact on the three boys he already has with Mom.

As such, if I were one of his sons, I would find this statement intensely hurtful.

An example of why in his present state of mind, he is capable of causing a lot of emotional damage to his children.

I guess maybe I'm just stating the obvious.

I also agree with you, Snowbelle, that it is also the way you say something that makes a difference as to whether someone is willing to listen or not. I sometimes have a problem with being too blunt or too clinical. When I read things back that I have written, they often don't sound with the same kindness I mean and feel even while I am writing - some people are better at that than others.

Betrayed's point at the end of her post is the kind of thing that I am talking about when I say I "see" the co-dependency dynamic at work - that it is so hard to give up on the idea that if you could ONLY do this, do that, even to the point of getting dad on Dr. Phil, MAYBE it would somehow make him change his mind - this is co-dependency. The sense that if only *I* did things *right*, it would change the way HE behaves. He won't change the way he behaves, or sees things because of anything you do. He will only change when and if he decides to, and he is not ready to do that - the proof is that he is still articulating foggy thoughts such as "I always wanted a girl". Nothing you do is going to make any difference in the way he thinks or feels about you. You can only take care of yourself and decide what you want - you can't change them for the better by anything you do, that's their job. I am glad to see Mom taking the steps to decide what it is she really wants out of life - this shows her growing strength in the face of all the trauma she has been through.

Sending good thoughts your way, Momt3b.

LIR

I agree with you that co-dependency is about "If I can only get my spouse to..."

I went way down that path.

What happened with me is that I woke up about a month ago and said to myself, "I don't want to live this way." With regard to the MB program, which is 15 hours per week of time together, my H has many times asked if 14.5 hours is acceptable. The last time he said this, I said something to the effect that I don't want to live in a marriage of neglect.

If you look at Mom's last post, it was about how she didn't want to live this way any more.

She's on her way. She's giving up on trying to influence Dad and deciding that she has better things to do than try to catch Dad in contacting OW.

And yes I see "I've always wanted a little girl" as a sign of incredible fog-talk...along with "I do have feelings for this woman." Insensitive. Cruel. Heartless.

I think Harley's labeling of adultery as essentially an act of inconsideration is totally accurate. It sounds like such a mild term but in the end a person uses feelings of love and a sense of responsibility towards OC to justify inconsiderate behavior towards the spouse.

Cherished

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Committed,
I am not offended by your post. <hr /></blockquote>Good...I didn't think that you would be. It was a simple question.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yes, I'm in counseling -- 80 times since two months into the A. The 4th time was 3 hours after the broken arm. My H decided about a month ago to go to counseling.
<hr /></blockquote>Good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

committed

Melodylane said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Honestly, how is a person supposed to respond to Mom's threads if they have to risk her wrath if she doesn't like their post? If it's not strictly a cheerleading post, the person is attacked as "mean."
<hr /></blockquote>I am one of those people who has been labeled as "mean" by Mom. Honestly, I wonder where she would be now, if she had listened and acted on the advise of the "meanies" (most of whom have successfully recovered thier marriages for quite some time now) instead of encouraging and thanking the cheerleading squad for engaging in furthering the drama.

What exactly has that kind of support gotten her in the long run? Good feelings for sure, but not much else, especially in the important task of recovering and building a healthy marriage. Everyone chastizes Dad for wanting to do what "feels good" but Mom does exactly the same thing. Her actions are based on what makes her feel good at the moment with little to no thought given to how what she does effects the marriage as a whole. She is equally responsible for the mess she is in and I do not see in her threads that she is introspective as to her part in this destructive dance. Be assured that this kind of mess is the responsibility of both partners. Both partners in this case refuse to do what is healthy for themselves as individuals and for the marriage and family as a whole, thus the stalemate we've seen for months and months on end.

Ok, this meanie is going back to her cupboard now.

For perspective on the co-dependency movement, here's what Dr. Harley says!!

How the Co-dependency Movement
Is Ruining Marriages
by Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Those of us in the business of trying to save marriages struggle daily with cultural beliefs and practices that make our job difficult. The sudden surge of divorces in the 1970's, that has made America the country with the highest divorce rate, has a great deal to do with changes in our basic beliefs. More to the point, it has to do with a major shift toward self-centeredness. Beliefs that encourage self-centeredness destroy marriage.
One of these is the belief that co-dependent behavior is self-defeating and that we should rid ourselves of it. It's a wolf in sheep's clothing and a marriage wrecker. I'll try to explain why I feel so strongly about this issue.

First, let me define what co-dependency is. I'll use a quotes from an article by Edmund J. Bourne. (The internet link to the original article is no longer available. But the quotes I use are so typical of co-dependency thinking that I still find it useful. And there are very few in the movement who would refute the gist of his position).

According to Bourne,

"Co-dependency can be defined as the tendency to put others needs before your own. You accommodate to others to such a degree that you tend to discount or ignore your own feelings, desires and basic needs. Your self-esteem depends largely on how well you please, take care of and/or solve problems for someone else (or many others)."
I look at that definition and think of Mother Teresa, how co-dependent she must have been. Not that I'm a Mother Teresa, but I certainly feel that I aspire to those objectives. If I find my self-esteem in the way I care for others, what's wrong with that? If we were all co-dependent, wouldn't this be a wonderful world?

Dr. Bourne offers us a questionnaire to complete to see if we are "dealing with co-dependency issues." Lets look at them one at a time:

1. If someone important to me expects me to do something, I should do it.
I don't hop whenever someone says hop. But if, say, God expects something of me (and he's certainly important), I believe I should do it. Okay, I'll leave God out of it. What about my wife, Joyce. Should I meet her every expectation? For starters, I can't do it. But on the other hand, I care about her. I want to do what I can to meet her needs, and avoid doing things that make her unhappy. She's not a princess and I'm not a slave, but she's important to me and I try to do what she expects of me. So if the person is as important as Joyce, I guess my answer to the first question is, "yes," with the qualifier, "try to do it."

2. I should not be irritable or unpleasant.
I know how people affect me when they're irritable or unpleasant. I want to head for the hills. So if I am concerned about how I affect other people, particularly Joyce, who has to live with me, I should protect her from my unpleasant tendencies, particularly my angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments and selfish demands. Those Love Busters can wreck our relationship in no time if I let them run amok. So my answer to this statement is "yes."

3. I shouldn't do anything to make others angry at me.
Well, let's see. What are some of the things I do that make others angry with me. I show them disrespect by interrupting them when they are talking, I point out their faults and failures, I get angry with them ... Yes, there are many things I've done that make others angry at me. When I am counseling, I can do some of them without my client feeling anger. They seem to expect me to point out their short-comings. In my years of counseling, very few clients have ever reported feeling angry with me.

But in my marriage, it's a different story. I firmly believe that when Joyce is angry with me, I had something to do with her experience. Because I don't want to do things that hurt her or upset her, I regret doing it.

Don't get me wrong. I don't believe that my mistakes justify an angry outburst on Joyce's part. She needs to protect me from her abusive behavior just as I need to protect her from mine. But if she feels anger toward me, I have done something that has annoyed or offended her, and should try to avoid it if I can. Another "yes" if it applies to Joyce, and a qualified "yes" regarding most other people.

4. I should keep people I love happy.
This gets to the core of what life in general, and marriage in particular, is all about. Why am I here, anyway? I chose psychology as a career partly because I wanted to make a difference in the lives of others. I specialized in marriage counseling because I found so many people in miserable marriages, and I thought I could help.

When I married Joyce, I wanted to make her happy. I know, we can't "make" anyone happy. Everyone has a huge role to play in their own happiness. But at least I wanted to try to meet her emotional needs, and I expected her to meet mine. And I wanted to avoid hurting her, just as I expected her to avoid hurting me. We both believed that we had a responsibility to each other to try to make each other happy, and avoid making each other unhappy.

I'm aware of the downside of trying to make people happy. If they turn all responsibility for their happiness over to us, we end up carrying a crushing load. But most people don't do that. It's only in unhealthy relationships that one person sucks the life out of the other. I'll get into that subject after we're done with the questionnaire, but with that qualification, my answer to this statement is, "yes."

5. It's usually my fault if someone I care about is upset with me.
This goes back to statement #3, that has to do with how I affect people. From a philosophical level, I think we can all agree that if someone is upset with us, we had at least something to do with their reaction. Whether or not we could have avoided it depends on all sorts of things, but even if we couldn't avoid it, it's still partially our fault. The word "usually" helps me answer this one with a "yes."

6. I obtain self-esteem out of helping others solve their problems.
What is self-esteem, anyway? It's feeling good about ourselves, feeling that we're okay. Getting back to my earlier question about the meaning of life, what do I have to feel good about? That I exist? No. I don't give myself any credit for my existence. I feel good about the choices I make and what I can do -- primarily for others. If I can't do anything for someone else, I'm certain I'd have no reason to have self-esteem.

Self-esteem is not something that I need in order to be productive. It's being productive that gives me self-esteem. It's what comes after we do something, not before. And what we do for self-esteem can't be just anything. It must be what we value. Of the things I do, what do I value the most? I'm afraid I fail the co-dependency test again. I value most what I do for others. So that means that the more I help others solve their problems, the better I feel about myself. I'm afraid this statements gets a "yes."

7. I tend to overextend myself in taking care of others.
Definitely, "yes."

8. If necessary, I put my own values or needs aside in order to preserve my relationship with my significant other.
We're talking about Joyce. This is a trick question because one of my values is to preserve my relationship with her at all costs. It is impossible to put that value aside, and still try to preserve my relationship with her. But I will assume that this statement refers to other values, and again I answer "yes."

9. I have a hard time receiving things from others.
I'd rather give than receive, if that's what the question is getting at. But I don't mind it when Joyce meets my needs. In fact, I expect her to meet my needs. So for the very first time, I will answer one of these statements with a "no."

10. Fear of someone else's anger has a lot of influence on what I say or do."
I'm one of those odd ducks that don't experience fear very often, so my answer to this one is also, "no." But I should add that people's anger does influence me, especially when it's Joyce's anger. But it is not fear that I experience, rather sadness that I did something to disappoint her.

After completing all these questions, I'm told by Dr. Bourne that if I answered three or more of these statements with a "yes," I am likely to be dealing with chemical dependency issues. What does eight "yes" responses mean? I must be a basket case!

As I read on in his article, I discover that:

"The consequences of maintaining a co-dependent approach to life is a lot of resentment, frustration and unmet personal needs. When these feelings and needs remain unconscious, they often resurface as anxiety -- especially chronic, generalized anxiety. The long-term effects of co-dependency are enduring stress, fatigue, burnout and eventually serious physical illness."
Is it too late? Have I been co-dependent too long to avoid these terrible consequences? Reading these predictions would put most people into a panic, but, remember, I don't experience fear or anxiety very often.

Wait just a minute! If I'm co-dependent, why don't I experience fear very often. Why is anxiety one of my least-felt emotions. After all, since I am so very co-dependent, you'd think that I would be a bundle of jangled nerves. But I'm not. I'm none of those things that Dr. Bourne says co-dependent people are.

I'm clearly co-dependent (most of those who know me well would attest to that), but I have no anxiety problems whatsoever. And no problems with depression, either. In fact, I am inexplicably happy. And neither my wife nor I have any chemical dependency issues, either. We are in love with each other, and have a great marriage.

Pity the poor person who has an anxiety disorder. Or more to the point, pity that person's spouse. The solution to "chronic, generalized anxiety" is to

not do what others's expect,

be as irritable and unpleasant as you wish,

make people angry with you,

don't try to make the people you love happy,

don't blame yourself when someone you care for is upset with you,

gain self-esteem from what you do for yourself, rather than what you do for others,

don't ever care about others so much that you overextend yourself,

maintain your values and needs even if it means ruining your marriage,

take from others whenever you can, and

don't let someone else's anger deter you from your objectives.

A formula for sociopathic behavior if I've ever seen one. You go in with anxiety and come out a terrorist!
If you want to know the truth, co-dependent beliefs and behavior do not lead to anxiety. They lead to healthy, happy marriages. Joyce and I am living proof.

You may be thinking, But how can that be? We've all been taught not to be co-dependent. It's blasphemy to challenge such a well-established belief system. Dr. Harley, now that I know how you feel about co-dependency, I'm not sure I can accept any of your concepts. You have really disappointed me.

Give me a chance to redeem myself. I, of all people, understand how the concepts of co-dependency started. I had a one-year internship in a treatment center for chemical dependency, and I owned and operated ten such centers myself. Co-dependency was something all of us addressed in marriages where one or both spouses were addicted to drugs or alcohol.

When an alcoholic is married to a loving and caring spouse, the spouse's love and care is sucked in like a black hole. It drains the caring spouse of everything they have, leaving him or her not only exhausted, but also having failed to meet their sick spouse's needs. In these cases, the non-alcoholic spouse must emotionally detach themselves or becomes emotionally destroyed.

When the 10 statements that we just considered are applied to care of an alcoholic, the answers are very different than the ones I gave. Consider them in the context of living with an alcoholic:

If the "important" person is an alcoholic, what they expect is often totally unrealistic and should not be done. Their addiction causes them to suffer very negative consequences, and they expect their spouses to shield them from those consequences. It can't, and shouldn't be done. If I were married to an alcoholic, my answer to this statement would be "no."

Anyone living with an alcoholic is going to be irritable and unpleasant. It can't be avoided, because the environment is so incredibly sick -- "no".

If you deny an alcoholic's unrealistic request, he or she will become angry. So it's impossible to avoid their anger. Again, "no."

You can't keep an alcoholic happy, because their emotional needs are sacrificed for whatever it takes to get their next drink. "No."

An alcoholic is upset because his addiction is ruining him, not because of something his spouse did. It's not the spouse's fault that he's upset. "No."

If you think you will gain self-esteem helping an alcoholic solve his problems, short of helping him overcome his addiction, you're not going to have any self-esteem. That's because he can't solve his problems as long as he's addicted. "No" is the answer.

Talk about overextension! If you want to be really overextended and get nothing for your effort, try to take care of an alcoholic. "No."

The spouses of alcoholics often try to make excuses for the alcoholism. It's called "enabling." It makes it possible to continue the addiction without suffering some of the consequences. In fact, many spouses become alcoholic themselves, just to preserve their relationship. They set aside their healthy values and ignore their normal needs just to be close to someone in the process of self-destruction. Left to their own devices they are then both destroyed. "No."

When you are used to giving until it hurts, like you do in a relationship with an alcoholic, you forget about the fact that you need something in return. Answer this one "no."

Alcoholics are often angry, and in order to avoid physical and verbal abuse, an alcoholic's spouse develops anxiety from the very real risk of physical and emotional harm. Unless you want to go down in flames, answer, "no."

Now it all makes sense in the context of an alcoholic marriage, and that's the context for which it was originally created. It made sense to me then, and it still does as long as it is limited to spouses of alcoholics. The problem arose when the alcoholic spouse was left out of the equation, and it was applied to all of us.
I attended a workshop on co-dependency a few years ago where we were told that co-dependency was wrong in any relationship. As those of us in the audience questioned the proposal, we all began to realize that we were all co-dependent, as defined by the workshop leader. Many of us complained that the very definition was so broad as to include most of humanity (excluding sociopathic people, of course). They felt that their co-dependent tendencies didn't seem to be a problem for them, so why should they try to overcome it. The workshop leader himself was at a loss to explain why they should change, except to express the warning that it leads to "stress, fatigue, burnout and eventually serious physical illness."

Since most in the room were skeptics, I doubt that any of them adopted the change to "save their sanity." But there are many people who are not so well-protected. When they see a therapist for anxiety and he gives them this list of dos and don'ts, they are in no position to be analytic. They accept it as truth, and in a futile effort to overcome anxiety, they destroy their marriage.

It is a most alarming scenario, both from a mental health standpoint, and from a marital standpoint. I have found that ridding someone of "co-dependent tendencies" does not rid them of anxiety. There are many effective methods that achieve that important objective, but this is not one of them.

But it is more than an ineffective way to treat anxiety. It also undermines one of the most important aspects of a person's life, their marriage. I have witnessed many who have been "treated" for anxiety and depression only to learn how to become impossible to live with. After driving their spouse out of their lives with their newly acquired selfish and destructive behavior, they are left feeling more anxious and depressed than ever, and divorced as well.

The care and consideration of our spouse does not leave us emotionally disabled -- unless our spouse turns out to be an addict. When it comes to addiction in marriage, my advice is to run for cover! But in marriages that do not suffer from addiction, care and consideration is not the problem, but rather the solution to problems.

In my judgment, the co-dependency movement, which began with such valuable insight, has become a monster. In over-reaching, it has subjected healthy people to the same norms as unhealthy people, and in so doing, has caused much more harm than good. Married couples should be on guard from the ruinous effects of the co-dependency movement on marriage, especially if one of them suffers from anxiety or depression.

End of his article!!

I think what Harley is saying is that interdependence is great (mutual care) and co-depedency has been expanded as a definition to include interdepedence.
Cherished

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cherished:
 I think what Harley is saying is that interdependence is great (mutual care) and co-depedency has been expanded as a definition to include interdepedence.
Cherished <hr /></blockquote>Right on Cherished!

Pep

Yep, CSue, I was going to find that article if you hadn't.

Hey M23B, can you change the thread name to "Free for all, Mom's gone" or "Fireworks" or something else before you're completely out of here? The thread has been taken over and it's less your thread than it is...something else.

For the love of little green apples!

Do any of you realize what you are doing? Mom lost her father and her husband on the same day! Maybe she needs a little less "help" and a little more holding - at least till she can find her feet.

I love you Kandi. I'm here. You have my #.

- Kimmy