And why can't you tell her that you love her and want her to come home? What bothers you about saying that?

After 10 months of this, my head is very clogged with rules, protocols, principles, and strategies (from DB'ing, MB'ing, a library full of books, etc)..... guess I'm paranoid of making the wrong move at the wrong time. There IS a school of thought that says, at a time like this, "You HAVE to STOP the I LOVE YOU's!"

But, now that I truly believe there's not much chance at all of saving my marriage, part of me wants to FORCE myself to dump everything -- all the strategies, principle, games... and just BE ME. And, ME is to say:

I love you and I want you to come home. I love you and together we can get out of this mess.
I love you and together we can make everything ok.

So, what the hell... maybe I'll give that a quick shot before bringing out the heavier artillery (the aforementioned emails).

tqt, I think you did great in talking to the OM!! Maybe you can give the poor boy a follow up call? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You just would not believe the benefits to be reaped from causing discomfort in the affair. You are making this affair troublesome.


BRAVO!!

But you have told him he would be hearing from you, so I would definitely send the email! It will work to your benefit. If you don't, you hurt your credibility.


I also think you should tell your W that you love her and want her home. The reason I think so is because she has signalled you that she doesn't believe she can undo the damage she has caused. She feels she must now move forward without you. You need to correct this idea! Let her know you love her and are willing to help her get rid of the OM and come back home.

In other words, give her a path back that is lined with love and forgiveness! But I think you should do a good solid Plan A before you consider jumping to Plan B. You have to give her something TO MISS before you go to Plan B. Otherwise it is a relief to her.

What would happen if you started flirting with her? Asked her out for a romantic dinner?

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

After 10 months of this, my head is very clogged with rules, protocols, principles, and strategies (from DB'ing, MB'ing, a library full of books, etc).....
Then use this one rule.
Be nice.

I also think you should tell your W that you love her and want her home.

Hi and thanks Melody!

Had two phone conversations with my wife tonight.

First one... I kinda screwed up (I let her less-than-loving demeanor get the best of me.).

Second one... I told her how I didn't feel good about the first one, and told her that I love her and want her home. She said "I can't make that decision right now." I guess that's as good as it gets... so I'll take it, for now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Then use this one rule.
Be nice.

Chris... thanks. THAT I can do!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tqt:
<strong> [b]

Second one... I told her how I didn't feel good about the first one, and told her that I love her and want her home. She said "I can't make that decision right now." I guess that's as good as it gets... so I'll take it, for now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan A, Plan A, Plan A your heart out for the next few weeks and woo her back, tqt. No lovebusters, please. Make sure she knows that the door is open and that there can be a great future with you. You must give her a great taste in her mouth before you go into Plan B.

What do you think attracted her the OM? What attracted her to you when she fell in love with you?

P.S. did ya send that email to the OM?

<small>[ November 25, 2004, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tqt:
<strong>I told her how I didn't feel good about the first one, and told her that I love her and want her home. She said "I can't make that decision right now."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Next time she says something like this, reply, "I understand. I will do all I can to make this decision an easy one for you in time."

WAT

<small>[ November 25, 2004, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Warning: long post!

Thanks Melody and WAT,
It was a pleasant surprise to hear from you today -- Happy Thanksgiving to you both, and to everyone!

I really am struggling right now, and I think it's because

-- it FEELS like she may be coming around, but I could 100% wrong. My hopes are up, but I'm downright scared that if I'm reading things wrong, I'm in for all that more of a crash...
-- this darn holday season is making things seem more urgent in a lot of ways (more on that in a second)
-- I feel sorta panicky, desperate, whatever... like there's two minutes left in the game, the score is tied, and I'm completely wiped out -- can I go the last two minutes? And if I make one little mistake, maybe just by omission, then game over, I've lost it all.

My mother, who is one smart lady, has been incredibly supportive, but at the same time thinks I'm nuts for wanting my wife back. She believes that my W has a lot of serious emotional/character issues that will never change.
SO, she likes to tell me stories like this: she talked with a woman who went thru this with her WH many years ago. This woman, after hearing some of MY story, says to my mother: "Oh yes, your son's wife definitely wants a divorce. She just doesn't want to hurt him any more than she has, and that's why she hasn't gotten around to it...."

Hearing those things does plant serious doubt in my head. Why am I going thru this, and realistically, is there a chance in hell that this will turn out like I want it to?


I DID call my W this morning; she was driving up to her mother's for Thxgiving/weekend.

She almost sounded happy to hear from me -- ie. she answered "Hello?" (no emotion) I said "Good morning..." She said, "Oh, Hi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> "
(does that stuff actually MEAN anything???!?!? AAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!)

She said she got started late, and was going to be late for dinner. I could hear her getting all stressed out about it. (It doesn't take her long to go from mood A to mood B.)
I said "try not to get yourself all upset about it, besides, you can tell everyone it's my fault because I convinced you to wait and drive up this morning instead of in the rain last night."
She said, by this time MORE stressed, and I can't really describe the sarcastic/self-bashing tone of voice: "Yeah, blame it on everybody else instead of blaming myself... isn't that what you're supposed to do? Blame everyone else and not take responsibility for your own actions? Isn't that what you're supposed to do?"

Now *I* tend to read into that, and assume that she is NOT talking about being LATE for DINNER.
You guys think I'm crazy, or....??

Then... I took a deep breath... and said: "let's get you home for Christmas."
She said: "(pause)... what?"
I said: "let's get you home for Christmas."
She said: (pause-and-a-half)... to be honest I'm not really thinking about that right now."
I said: (cheerfully/whatever) OK...
and she quickly said: ok, well, I gotta got off and concentrate on the traffic....

I do believe I'm in the process of losing my mind... Trying to salvage the last 24 years of my life, and the rest of my life as I once knew it, every bit of it all resting on the analysis of everything that comes out of her mouth.......

Plan A, Plan A, Plan A your heart out for the next few weeks and woo her back, tqt. No lovebusters, please. Make sure she knows that the door is open and that there can be a great future with you. You must give her a great taste in her mouth before you go into Plan B.

Yep, I know. Gotta do my best, when I'm really at my worst! That may be one of the hardest parts of this whole thing...

I could be wrong, but it feels like I should be increasing the drag on the reel and reeling her in MUCH more assertively(?) than I have been.
But that's PRESSURE, isn't it? And isn't that pretty risky??? But she IS a LITTLE GIRL, and maybe that's what she needs/wants??

What do you think attracted her the OM?

Where she was at when this thing (EA, at first) took hold: I think she was bored, good chance of some level of depression, unhappy with herself, she said "turning 40 was devastating to me," no children, child of traumatic divorce, father killed in car accident a couple years prior. I mentioned earlier in this or another thread that I neglected to keep her "entertained," and got a couple 2x4's for saying that. But, I pretty stand by what I said. W has never had enough interests outside of work to keep herself busy -- keep herself entertained -- she always needed something/someone else to fill in the gaps. Seriously -- if a late 30's woman has no children (her choice), she really needs to have other passions/interests to "make up for it" -- isn't there some truth to that? Although it makes sense to me, that's not my theory, and I'm not sexist in the least, so... no 2x4's please.

Where I was at, at the same time: wrapped up in my job, time-wise, but also not happy. In other words, there was a period of time where I could not (or let's just say I DID not) pay enough attention to W's needs, which, at THAT time, were particularly NEEDY, and I didn't recognize it. On the flipside, though, I do remember needing HER to "be there" for me more than ever, and, quite simply, she was NOT.

Given all that, it's easy to see what attracted her to the OM: he's a guy who absolutely has to be the center of attention (I've met him several times in the past, and I got that impression immediately). To do that, he (or anyone) has to be funny, witty, charming, etc. He also was in the process of blowing up his own marriage, and shopping around for a woman. OMW told me that he said to her in their MC session: "yeah, I'm interested in several different women." (nice guy!)
In other words, W was bored/depressed (with herself, with me, with life), OM was shopping around and I KNOW pursued (preyed on) my W BIG-time. To make things worse, my wife is, unfortunately, a deadly combination of VERY attractive and very flirtatious. The icing on the cake: absolutely terrible parenting by W's mother/father. Her mother always drilled into W's head the fact that she could never count on a man, she MUST be independent/able to function on her own/etc.
It's almost like my wife was programmed for this whole thing. (I wonder now...Why did I have to be the one who fell in love with her and dedicated my life to her?!?!?!)

Bottom line, I think:
We both neglected each other, for different reasons, and we failed to recognize what was happening. OM happened to be there at just the wrong time. I kill myself every day for not recognizing what was going on.


What attracted her to you when she fell in love with you?
Ya know, that was so long ago... 24 years. I don't know if I really KNOW the answer to that(?) Is that sad commentary, or ?


P.S. did ya send that email to the OM?
I wimped out. On the plus side, I figure he's still wondering/waiting when/how he'll be confronted by me. Can't hurt that he's quaking in his boots, at least. Right now he's probably wondering if I'm gonna jump out of the turkey. You still feel strongly that I should send it, huh? I'll plan on mustering up the nerve and send Monday, if not before. I was going to send a copy to the boss, but W will consider that a huge LB, so I'm not going to do that -- you agree?


Next time she says something like this, reply, "I understand. I will do all I can to make this decision an easy one for you in time."

Thanks WAT. I wish I could think of these things in the heat of the moment. Every interaction with her is so stressful (trying to say the right thing, etc), that it's like I'm on auto-pilot and I don't even know what I'm saying as I say it. I'm exagerating, of course, but...

Sorry for the long post!

Tqt,

I'm in the same position as you are only my ww does not work with this person. I wrote my letter to Om's company which has a very strong family value in my community. I have attached my letter below, maybe it will help you and maybe not. OM's company has been in my community for over 90 yrs and is still owned and operated by the same family.

----------------------------------------------------

xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxx Street
Rochester, NY 1xxxx

Dear Mr. xxxxx:

I’m hoping by writing this letter in hopes of making you aware of a situation that does in every way effect your business. You have an employee by the name of xxxxxx who has been having an affair with my wife of 11 years. I have asked this young man to please break any and all contact with my wife. I feel that this may or may not concern you, the simple fact that this employee has met with my wife while on company time and may have even used company assets to make contact with my wife. This employee park’s one of your vehicles outside his home and this is a direct effect on your company name and it’s reputation. I have been advised by my marriage counselor to contact you about this matter in hopes you may want to have a conversation with this employee about the use of company time and company vehicle. I find that most employers have a human resources department and even a small paragraph in there employee handbook about being a direct representation of your company and keeping in good standards with the community. I will also be sending letters to the residents on xxxxxx home street alerting them of his behavior. I truly am writing this letter in hopes of keeping this young man from making any more contact with my wife. I do not want your company name or employee’s affected by this one employee who has no regard for a sacred marriage and my three children. I hope this letter helps you in keeping your company name in our community up to the standard you have always set. xxxxxx resides at xxxxxx Street Rochester, Ny 1xxxx.
In closing I hope this has no effect on your companies good name.


Sincerely,
Concerned Husband

<small>[ November 25, 2004, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Mschluter ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could be wrong, but it feels like I should be increasing the drag on the reel and reeling her in MUCH more assertively(?) than I have been.
But that's PRESSURE, isn't it? And isn't that pretty risky??? But she IS a LITTLE GIRL, and maybe that's what she needs/wants??
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it is pressure and it will push her away. You have told her you want her back and she is not ready to make a move. So the next step is to attract her back. You can't push her back, but you can attract her back.So, no more telling her you want her back - you have done this - now you have to woo her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bottom line, I think:
We both neglected each other, for different reasons, and we failed to recognize what was happening. OM happened to be there at just the wrong time. I kill myself every day for not recognizing what was going on.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tqt, I need you to do more work on indentifying what emotional needs were not met in your marriage for her. Will you go print out the emotional needs questionaire and take it for her? See if you can determine which need was not met. We need to know this so that you can attract her back. OM is meeting SOME NEED. It is more than entertaining her. There is more here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.S. did ya send that email to the OM?
I wimped out. On the plus side, I figure he's still wondering/waiting when/how he'll be confronted by me. Can't hurt that he's quaking in his boots, at least. Right now he's probably wondering if I'm gonna jump out of the turkey. You still feel strongly that I should send it, huh? I'll plan on mustering up the nerve and send Monday, if not before. I was going to send a copy to the boss, but W will consider that a huge LB, so I'm not going to do that -- you agree?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its not really a lovebuster at all. I would suggest that you are going to embolden the OM if you don't send it. You can't afford that. I think it is an excellent idea to send it to the OM and cc the boss. It has no teeth whatsoever if you don't cc the boss. See, I don't believe the OM gives a rats [censored] about your W and might possibly jump ship if the affair becomes more trouble than its worth. I think you can't afford to not miss this opportunity.

And when your W calls you up screeching about it, tell her you did it because you love her very much and want her back and will do what it takes to end the affair. No lovebusting on your part.

Have you considered that the source of your W's depression might be the affair? I have a strong sense that it might be the source.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tqt:
<strong>

My mother, who is one smart lady, has been incredibly supportive, but at the same time thinks I'm nuts for wanting my wife back. She believes that my W has a lot of serious emotional/character issues that will never change.
SO, she likes to tell me stories like this: she talked with a woman who went thru this with her WH many years ago. This woman, after hearing some of MY story, says to my mother: "Oh yes, your son's wife definitely wants a divorce. She just doesn't want to hurt him any more than she has, and that's why she hasn't gotten around to it...."
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That may be very true. And your job is to make her not want a divorce. Your mother is right about the character issues, you can't change her character. [mothers are ALWAYS right, though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ] If her adultery is stemming from a character issue, rather than a marital issue, then you are wasting your time.

Thanks Michael.
I've already emailed the boss, and his response was reasonable. This stuff puts the employer/manager/whatever in an awkward position, and it would'e been great if he said "alright, dammit! I won't tolerate this. OM, you're fired!"
He did say he wasn't sure if he should get involved in his employees' personal lives, and even if the answer was YES, he didn't quite know how to handle it. At least he didn't tell me to get lost!

It's an employers right to not get onvolved but it's your right to politly let the boss know that this person is causing not only damage to your family life but also to the good name of this company and that he might want to partner up with his humna resources department and find that little paragraph that states every employee will conduct themselfes in a manner that reflects the companies best interest....It's what I used and I was amazed at the email I got back from my ww's Om's boss..He was not please at all with this employee...LOL below I posted a letter I stuck in every door in om's area..I put out a total of about 250 flyers....Since he lives in a decent neighborhood

---------------------------------------------------


November 25, 2004
Residents of Marne Street


Dear Residents of xxxxxxx:

I am writing this letter to inform you that xxx xxx of xxxxx street has been asked to discontinue his affair with my wife, who I have three wonderful children with and have been with for almost eleven years now. You ask why I write to you, well how would you feel if it was your spouse involved with this person and you asked him to please stop messing with your life and your marriage. I have vowed that I will do anything within the guidelines of the law to keep this person from ever going near my wife again. It is my civic right to inform you that you have a homeowner in your area that has no morals or concerns for the children involved in the marriage he is ruining. How would you feel if this person was seen talking to your spouse or your loved one? Many of you will understand the pain this person has caused my family and my children. My wife has agreed to stop seeing this person but xxxxx refuses to leave her alone and continues to try and contact her any way he can. I’m hoping that you wonderful people of xxxx Street will in passing inform this young man of his wrong doing and how he is destroying the lives of three small children. I will as a husband do everything I can to save my marriage and to build it into something that will overcome the evil that xxxxx has brought into it. I know I can count on many of you to sit there and wonder how you would feel if this was you and maybe many of you have survived this type of adultery in the past. I have asked Allan on two occasions to break all contact with my wife and he told me he would and yet he lies and continues. He is the worst kind of neighbor you would want and one you should watch very carefully. So residents of Marne Street help me save my marriage and keep this troubled person from hurting my children anymore, let him know you know what he is about and that you dislike his kind. And that you will not tolerate the secrecy of an affair in your good neighborhood. xxxxxx works for a company that would allow him access to your home and your spouse, is this? the type of person you want in your home? Near your wife? Near your children? Again I hope you find it in your heart to send this person a letter asking him to see the error in his ways. xxxxx again lives at xxxxxx Street – Rochester, NY 1xxxx

Sincerely,
Loving Husband & Father

<small>[ November 25, 2004, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Mschluter ]</small>

Hi Melody!

tqt, I need you to do more work on indentifying what emotional needs were not met in your marriage for her. Will you go print out the emotional needs questionaire and take it for her? See if you can determine which need was not met. We need to know this so that you can attract her back. OM is meeting SOME NEED. It is more than entertaining her. There is more here.

I printed out the EN Questionaire a couple months ago, hoping I could get my wife to go thru it with me, but she was already too far gone.
I think what's going on NOW vs. what was happening about a year ago are two different things.
In other words, yes -- OM met my W's need(s) for SOMETHING back then, she got herself hooked, and now it really seems like she's stuck in the situation and can't get out of it -- rather than OM is still meeting EN's that she feels she can't get anywhere else (ie. with me).

Ahh, but, as I say that I realize that, yes, of course, I'm not meeting ANY of her EN's now because she won't let me... what needs HE is meeting right now, I don't know. I DO know that the needs HE is getting met in their R is 1) something I don't want to think about, and 2) NOT one of my W's needs.

Our MC said "This is very complicated." And, he was right. Why he didn't say "This is very complicated, and I'd like to refer you to someone better able to help you..." is beyond me. Downright unethical, when I look back at it.

Anyway, I could write a book here.....

She can't get out of the R w/ OM because she feels -- like she has said -- "nothing I've done can be undone" and "once you leave you can't go back, right?"
That's MY take on it, anyway. She's addicted to it/him, she's still justifying everything in her head by rewriting our marital history, and... at the same time... calling me in tears saying "I'm just not happy."

This IS very complicated.

In going thru the EN's Questionaire, it's a bit sobering... it actually makes me feel better about what kind of husband I've been. And it makes me realize how many/much of MY EN's my W hasn't met for ME. I always knew there were things that I wasn't "getting" from our marriage, but I never strayed from my complete and total commitment to her, and us. I always -- ALWAYS -- figured that if there was something I wasn't getting from my marriage, it was either MY fault/problem and/or we'd figure out a solution eventually. I regret that now.

I may have been lax on the "recreational companionship" for a short period of time (when I was all wrapped up in my job). But I can quickly turn that into the same thing I said earlier: she never had enough to keep herself busy outside of work, and looked for something/somebody else to... entertain her. Do I feel responsibility for whatever part this played in the crumbling of our marriage? Yes. But I don't think it can be that simple. I don't think our marriage fell apart because of this. I don't think the OM met this need; after all, there wasn't much time for recreational companionship in this or most any affair.

The only other EN that could be remotely possible is Admiration. Which... if that was a critical missing need for her, makes me very sad. It makes me sad because I always had her on the biggest, highest pedestal-of-all-pedestals... how could she have missed that I admired her in SO MANY different ways? That she was the most important thing on the planet to me?
That I would have walked on water for her --- and if I found out I didn't know how, I would've figured it out? I just can't see how, after what was then 22+ years together, I all of a sudden failed to meet her need for admiration.
If I did fail in that regard, I would certainly accept that fact. It just doesn't seem to fit.

But, she DID SAY one time (early in the post-discovery/confrontation stage) that this guy made her feel good about herself.
I THINK HE DID EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to do that -- he was on the prowl for a woman! That's how it works...
I think it was at that very moment -- when she said that to me -- when I first realized that this intelligent, beautiful person had SOME kind of issues related to self-esteem, self-worth, etc. How did I miss that?!? And WHY, HOW could that be possible!?!? Obviously related: when we were in the bowels of hell a month or two before she moved out, she said "I feel fat and ugly when I'm with you." My wife is not fat, and she is not ugly. Uhhh... far from it. Sorry for the foul language, but... WTF??!?!?!?

This is VERY complicated...

And there's GOTTA be more to the story -- HER story. I've been searching for that missing piece of the puzzle -- diligently --, but when she doesn't open up and say anything, how far can I get?

"Oh yes, your son's wife definitely wants a divorce. She just doesn't want to hurt him any more than she has, and that's why she hasn't gotten around to it...."
That may be very true.

O U C H.


If her adultery is stemming from a character issue, rather than a marital issue, then you are wasting your time.

Ouch again.
I guess that's the scariest part of this whole story.

She just does NOT open up. She does NOT talk about what's going on in her head. She never did.
In fact, just last night... it may or may not be a big LB... I guess I was sort of bashing the OM, but I was doing that in the context of being worried about her (which I am -- BIG time). I again asked her if she had thought more about talking to someone (to get help sorting things out). And then I asked her if OM was concerned about her, her happiness, etc. And I asked her if she could even TALK to him about "this kind of stuff." I knew the answer before I asked the question: NO.

Bottom line, for this post: I'm still clueless. But! I haven't given up.

Melody, seriously... any thoughts about how I can figure out whether this IS a character issue vs. a marital issue, short of getting her to IC/MC, which is a major long shot at this point? Are you going to tell me I should... "listen to your Mother!" ?

(a big, sincere THANKS for your help)

Will you please go buy Surviving an Affair tommorow at the book store?

tqt, I think part of the key is here. Its' not THAT complicated:

"But, she DID SAY one time (early in the post-discovery/confrontation stage) that this guy made her feel good about herself."
Obviously related: when we were in the bowels of hell a month or two before she moved out, she said "I feel fat and ugly when I'm with you." My wife is not fat, and she is not ugly. Uhhh... far from it. Sorry for the foul language, but... WTF??!?!?!?"

She has given you obvious clues right there. Why don't you take it seriously? You say you have her up on a pedastel, but did you tell her she was HOT? Did you flirt with her and make her feel desirable? What traits did you admire about her? How did you relate that to her?


See, you are going to have to try and woo her back if you want to save your marriage. You don't have the luxury of throwing up your hands and saying "it's very complicated." Its really not that complicated. This is not an exact science. You just try different things and see what works. But you MUST DO SOMETHING and stop this analysis paralysis!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melody, seriously... any thoughts about how I can figure out whether this IS a character issue vs. a marital issue, short of getting her to IC/MC, which is a major long shot at this point? Are you going to tell me I should... "listen to your Mother!" ?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its real simple, tqt, is her current behavior out of character for her? Or is it IN CHARACTER? You already know the answer, you don't need a counselor to tell you this.


I don't think it is a character issue unless you are going to tell me she has a lifelong pattern of deceitful, im moral behavior. If she has had affairs before or dishonest behavior, then I would tell you that you might be dealing with a character issue. However, if she has led an honest, faithful life as a thoughtful woman, then I am going to tell you that this is not her character.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She just does NOT open up. She does NOT talk about what's going on in her head. She never did.
In fact, just last night... it may or may not be a big LB... I guess I was sort of bashing the OM, but I was doing that in the context of being worried about her (which I am -- BIG time). I again asked her if she had thought more about talking to someone (to get help sorting things out). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that is a lovebuster. So is trying to get her to open up. You have a lot more work to do before she will opens up to you. First off, you have to STOP the lovebusters [and no, your email to Romeo and his boss is not a lb] and then you MUST try to meet her needs by attracting her back from the OM. There are no guarantees, but you must start doing something and I am really interested to find out if flirting with her has an impact. She told you she feels ugly around you. I don't know, but I can tell you that is quite devastating to most women to imagine that her H does not find her desirable. Show me a woman who feels undesirable at home and I will show you a woman who is vulnerable to the first smooth talking creep that comes along.

p.s. you know what I REALLY LIKE?? The idea that the OM is spending his weekend sweating bullets waiting for the other shoe to drop. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> DON'T YOU DARE DEPRIVE HIM OF THAT OTHER SHOE!! LOL

"But, she DID SAY one time (early in the post-discovery/confrontation stage) that this guy made her feel good about herself."
Obviously related: when we were in the bowels of hell a month or two before she moved out, she said "I feel fat and ugly when I'm with you." My wife is not fat, and she is not ugly. Uhhh... far from it. Sorry for the foul language, but... WTF??!?!?!?"

She has given you obvious clues right there. Why don't you take it seriously? You say you have her up on a pedastel, but did you tell her she was HOT? Did you flirt with her and make her feel desirable? What traits did you admire about her? How did you relate that to her?


Melody, if after ~22 years, my W fell in love w/ another man because I didn't make her feel desirable, then *I* need the counseling. For better or worse, she KNOWS she's HOT (that doesn't sound nice, but...), and I never, ever failed to show her my desire for her.

And I DO take all of it seriously. So many things she has said over the last 10 months -- the babble(?!) -- have been so bizarre. How can I take one thing like that and say "A-HA! THAT'S what happened." And I'm confused (honestly) -- what about the "believe nothing they say, and half of what they do?"

I need to do more thinking about this. Please believe me when I say I'm not doing this:

You don't have the luxury of throwing up your hands and saying "it's very complicated."

I've dedicated every minute of my life, and every ounce of my energy, to trying to save my marriage over the last 10+ months. The "It's very complicated" is simply my little jab at the MC who pretty much took our money and said just that (and not much else that was helpful). I do often forget that my sometimes dry humor (I guess that's what it is; not sure if that's the right description) doesn't translate well in this medium.

Ahhh, but wait. The MC did say a couple other things. He told my wife (after he asked me to leave the room) at the FIRST SESSION, that her anger may be coming from depression. (she went thru a long period of intense anger/rage/hatred during this whole 10-month nightmare. It's not entirely gone yet.)

He also told her that she had a significant problem with conflict avoidance. (my theory is that THAT goes back to some nasty stuff from her childhood. Reasonable theory, I think, knowing her mother and father, and hearing stories about her parents' divorce and the aftermath).
ANYway, I stumbled upon this last night from the other thread on Conflict Avoidance:


I don't believe it's unmet needs, at least not directly. Maybe as a consequence of avoiding conflict and not having healthy personal boundaries (weaknesses).

-------------------------------------

I have been thinking about this often lately, just when I thought I had it all figured out, this dawned on me.

I didn't want this A to start, had I been able to say NO, when I didn't like the OM's advances, this never would have taken place. I was afraid to hurt his feelings, I was afraid to make him mad. Not because I valued his feelings more than my H's, but because I was a big ole chicken!!!

Personal boundaries are huge for me, I just don't know how to set them. I'm embarrased of my pathetic weakness, and how easy it was for OM to pull me in. YUCK!!!


Now THAT FITS. If my W were to write that, I would understand completely. And, I would understand how that (above scenario) would be the cause of massive amounts of guilt and shame. (which my W has) Enough to maybe have a hard time living with yourself, once you've made a full and honest assessment of just how good/bad your marriage really was before going astray...


Am I looking for a way out of this that exonerates me from any responsibility/blame for what happened? No! No! No!
But I have really, really tried to be a good husband in all respects for 21 years -- and I'm just trying to figure out something that makes sense.

I'm really trying as hard as I can, Melody! This ain't easy! Don't give up on me, though, ok?

What's your take on her comment to me, in tears: "I'm just not happy." (a couple weeks ago; and she wasn't talking about our marriage) Certainly that has to mean something, doesn't it?

is her current behavior out of character for her? Or is it IN CHARACTER? You already know the answer, you don't need a counselor to tell you this.

I have to say that her current behavior is that of a very unhappy, confused, regretful, guilt-ridden, scared little girl. That's why I'm worried about her. Would she agree with that description? No, probably not. She has said (immediately prior to, and since leaving) "I'm perfectly happy, except for when I'm with you."
So if someone/anyone can help me understand why, on the phone, from her new apartment, after having left me 7+ weeks ago, she says to me, in tears: "I'm just not happy." then maybe I'd understand lots of other things.


Show me a woman who feels undesirable at home and I will show you a woman who is vulnerable to the first smooth talking creep that comes along.
I understand that, and I agree with that. It just doesn't fit the situation. Although, seriously, I suppose in the process of rewriting the history of our marriage that she could've convinced herself of anything, couldn't she?

I do have SAA, and will re-read, and will try to figure out how to "execute" the flirting part and see what happens -- not easy to do when she's shut me out so much. I obviously have to continue with the "showing her a path back home/loving/forgiveness/safety/etc." stuff, because it seems like it's, at the very least, making her think.

Have you thought about giving Steve Harley a call? He is not a waste of time or money at all and can often achieve in a few short sessions what other counselors can never acheive. He is a genius at assessing situations and giving direction. He won't waste your time and may well save your marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe it's unmet needs, at least not directly. Maybe as a consequence of avoiding conflict and not having healthy personal boundaries (weaknesses).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is very interesting, but the thing that confuses me is that she told you that OM made her feel beautiful and you made her feel fat and undesirable. Do you think she was lying? See, I just don't think she has abandoned her marriage and left her safe home because she is avoiding conflict with the OM. I can see how a weak woman might be drawn into an affair in such a way, but I don't buy that she will face even GREATER conflict, and shame, and insecurity to accommodate that conflict avoidance. It doesn't add up. A conflict avoider will take the path of least resistence, she hasn't done that at all. She has done the opposite, brought more conflict upon herself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melody, if after ~22 years, my W fell in love w/ another man because I didn't make her feel desirable, then *I* need the counseling. For better or worse, she KNOWS she's HOT (that doesn't sound nice, but...), and I never, ever failed to show her my desire for her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But my question is not does she know she's HOT, but how you express your desire for her? She says she feels undesirable around you. Why would she say this? Did you assume she knew she was desirable? Or did you tell her this? How often did you tell her you loved her?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to say that her current behavior is that of a very unhappy, confused, regretful, guilt-ridden, scared little girl. That's why I'm worried about her. Would she agree with that description? No, probably not. She has said (immediately prior to, and since leaving) "I'm perfectly happy, except for when I'm with you."
So if someone/anyone can help me understand why, on the phone, from her new apartment, after having left me 7+ weeks ago, she says to me, in tears: "I'm just not happy." then maybe I'd understand lots of other things.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You just described emotions, not character. My question is this: does she have a pattern of lying and infidelity? Is it in character for her to act like this or is it out of character?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What's your take on her comment to me, in tears: "I'm just not happy." (a couple weeks ago; and she wasn't talking about our marriage) Certainly that has to mean something, doesn't it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hell yes, that means something. And that is why I want you to show her that you are there for her. Show her the path back.

What would happen if you asked her out for dinner?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is very interesting, but the thing that confuses me is that she told you that OM made her feel beautiful and you made her feel fat and undesirable. Do you think she was lying? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, she said the OM made her feel good about herself. I can beat myself up (and have done so) for failing to do that for her at some point, but at the same time, when you boil everything down, isn't that how all affairs start? I truly believe that if she REALLY FELT that I made her feel fat and undesirable, it's a miracle we lasted as long as we did. Do I think she was lying? Perhaps. Or more likely, she convinced herself of SOMEthing along those lines, maybe as part of the justification process(?) But I just don't know!?!

I've heard some very bizarre, off-the-wall stuff come out of her mouth in the last 10 months. But the "fat and ugly" thing REALLY threw me for a loop.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but how you express your desire for her? She says she feels undesirable around you. Why would she say this? Did you assume she knew she was desirable? Or did you tell her this? How often did you tell her you loved her?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never failed to tell her, and show her! (I'm the HD, she's the LD in the equation, so she never had a shortage of desire on my part -- and that's an understatement) If there can be such a thing, I probably told her I loved her TOO often.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My question is this: does she have a pattern of lying and infidelity? Is it in character for her to act like this or is it out of character?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd say out of character, with some reservations.
She was raised in an environment where the truth wasn't necessarily top priority, there were multiple episodes of infidelity, conflict avoidance WAS a priority, and emotional maturity/availability was sorely missing.

I'm not the terrible person I must sound like when I say these things. I love my wife more than anything on this planet, unconditionally (obviously), and I'm just trying to understand who she really is, as I've always done. I think it's important to be aware of, be "in touch" with, and come to terms with how your childhood/parenting/upbringing/etc played a role in making you who you are as an adult. She could never do that, or if she did, she held everything in her head.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's your take on her comment to me, in tears: "I'm just not happy." (a couple weeks ago; and she wasn't talking about our marriage) Certainly that has to mean something, doesn't it?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hell yes, that means something. And that is why I want you to show her that you are there for her. Show her the path back.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. That's what I'm trying to do. It's probably the single most important thing I CAN do, right?

I know this is an emotional rollercoaster, and I think I'm definitely in the trough right now. I don't particularly like it down here, so I'll think I'll climb back up as fast as I can <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And you are right: I've had a hard time finding the balance between three "places:"

analysis-paralysis
playing this as intelligently as possible
moving on with my life

I've always been someone who, when something needs fixing (or even just improving), I can't rest until it's done.
Unfortunately, the rules in this game are someone else's, and having to assume too much of a bystander role is extremely frustrating to me.
I can analyze THAT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and come to the conclusion that perhaps I've been trying TOO hard, and I need to take a step back, attempt to move on with my life, and hope that she "wakes up" and becomes interested enough to follow along with me. That's how I'm feeling now.
She really does think that, in a lot of ways, I HAVE been moving on, that I'm doing fine without her (Ha!), and I THINK(?) that has made her think a little bit more about what she's doing. (I believe that would be Weiner-Davis/DB principles)

Having said all THAT, I'll tell you something if you promise not to slap me with that 2x4 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> :
I just called my W (she's still out of town at her mother's). Called her to say hi and that I was thinking about her yesterday (ie. Thanksgiving without her), and chatted a little bit, and told her I hoped she had a fun rest-of-the-day planned. The call was short and sweet.
Her voice seemed to perk up when she heard it was me calling. (How pathetic that I put weight on something so small and probably meaningless...) So what did the phone call do for me? Made me miss her even more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> And I know she's probably talked to OM about 12 times in the last two days....... I'm 45 years old, and sometimes I feel like a 17-year old. Have to remind myself that in this situation, maybe that's semi-normal.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What would happen if you asked her out for dinner?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure! I think she said she's coming back tomorrow (Saturday) instead of Sunday, because she has to get work done before Monday.
I have to assume that they (OM) are planning to see each other tomorrow night, and "get work done" has little/nothing to do with it.
I could call her again either today/this evening or tomorrow morning and ask her out for dinner tomorrow night... which might (if she let it) throw a wrench in the spokes w/ OM's "plans." I'm afraid to pursue too much... But, I'm afraid to NOT pursue, too.
Life used to be easier than this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think Monday AM will be the best time to send The Email.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Have you thought about giving Steve Harley a call? He is not a waste of time or money at all and can often achieve in a few short sessions what other counselors can never acheive. He is a genius at assessing situations and giving direction. He won't waste your time and may well save your marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My only reservation about doing that is that I wouldn't know where to start to explain things.
I will definitely think it over, though.