Bear:

The break of NC is not always so ominous. In my case my WW was 100% committed to save the marriage and told OM to take a hike on D-day. However, about a month later there was contact and this lasted for about three months. Granted, the contact was sporadic and business like with no romantic undertones. Wife admitted she didn't think she could leave OM with just one call and she thinks this worked out better over several calls. This also gave my WW a chance to see the true colors of the OM. I am not sure WW would have seen the true colors of the OM if she had avoided further contact. Of course, this is an anecdote and permanent NC is best. However, some folks need more than one conversation to end things. They feel pity for OM and they think they can handle the withdrawal better that way. In the end some of these WWs do what they want to do despite what we say.

I hear what everyone is saying. I take comfort (?) in the fact that most times NC is not achieved right away.

I will tell you one more thing I left out. Saturday when I was out I saw OM...scamming on some other girl at the bars. Perfect! I knew that he never gave a [censored] about WW, she knows it too, deep down. Well, of course conversation came around with WW and I told her I had seen OM out and decided it was best if I leave the place he was at, I didn't trust myself to not beat the crap out of him. BTY, I go 6-2 230 lbs, former football player and can more than handle myself. She could not understand why I would leave? Almost, why was I uncomfortable? Practically threw it in my face when I thought she might be proud that I showed good judgement (she knows I want a piece of OM). Well, of course I LB'd (?), couldn't resist, and mentioned how good looking OM's new GF was...that I saw him scamming on some other girl. I wanted to spite her, but I wanted also to see her reaction. You can imagine she was a little peeved with me. Don't care, maybe it will open her eyes to see she is only being used for sex. Horrible.

So, although I was rattled this weekend, and feel powerless, I feel better after your folks imput. I do want to add my greatest fear is not losing my WW, which I admit I do fear, it is losing my 2 yr old.

Bear:

I have questions. Why is your W staying with her parents? What happened? I take it your son is with her, right?

Don't be so hard about telling your W about the OM flirting with another woman. Part of her knows he was a womanizer, part of her knows she was "played", that was part of the attraction, and that's why she reacted so stongly - she knows you are likely telling her the truth.

Bear,
What can you do?

If you are willing to except your WW behavior no matter what she may choose to do, then you’re right. There is nothing that you can do. You have no options. There is nothing that you CAN do.

However, the MB methodology provides for a stated and stipulated method to be used in this kind of situation. It’s called Plan B and Plan B does not mean “the two of you living in separate places!” It is a regimented, organized procedure filled with dos and don’ts that must be followed if it is to be successful.

You see, you do have options. You just refuse to see them as being viable.

Just as your WW refuses to understand how detrimental her current life style is to herself, her husband and child, you also are manifesting the same level of irresponsible behavior.

You talk about what you will tolerate and won’t tolerate telling her that if she sleeps with any one it’s unacceptable but so what? Why would she believe you? You’ve already explained how her actions have made you feel and she has done what? Decided to resume contact with her OM and tell you right to your face that she won’t promise not to do it again! That’s what! And you respond but saying or doing what? And you rationalize your unwillingness to take action because you interpret your motives for not doing anything as being positive as apposed to hers which are negative (an interpretation about which you will get no argument from me) but it still doesn’t mean that your behavior is correct because in the end, you’re enabling her to continue.

The two of you living apart is obviously not the solution. Trying to Plan A with her living elsewhere is like taking something difficult and then adding 10 degrees of difficulty. In football terminology it’s like having 3 game days to prepare for and play, every week! Can it be done? Sure it can but for how long and can you hope to achieve a winning record? What do you think?

Can you reason with a WW? Can you believe a cheater? What do you think? Do you love your son and want to be with him every day? Of course you do but are you with him everyday right now? And how much closer are you to living with him again as things are right now? Your WW goes out alone to saloons to drink and dance with other men and you’re worried about the fact that she broke no contact? You show disapproval for this activity and want to know where she is and with whom she is and you’re worried that you may appear to be controlling?

Instead you attempt to achieve an end to this situation with a Plan A consisting of the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">~” No LB's, no angry outbursts.
Treat her with respect even when shown none.
Continue to meet her financial needs.
Meet my parental duties.
Will not force my opinions on her, tell her what to think (she says I do that, also says I try to plant things in her head)
Commit random acts of kindness for her.
Keep a warm, clean, happy home to come back to.
Meet conversation needs (this will be tough, no desire to talk to me)
Will not enable her to go out partying by watching our son.
Don't ask her about her activities. (don't show I am worried about her going out, etc.)
I will make her more responsible for picking son up from daycare by making myself "unavailable".”~

So how does this behavior differ from your previous behavior? For the most part isn’t this the way you’ve always behaved? How much different could you have been? But it doesn’t matter anyway! Do you know why? Because as things are at present, you can’t get her attention and you won’t get her attention as long as you two remain apart.

If her parents are really on your side, then they have to tell her that she can no longer stay with them! That she must go home. They must make her understand that while they love and support her, that a married woman can’t always run home to mom and dad when she’s in trouble. Anything less is an obstruction of the process and accomplishes nothing more then to allow her to continue with her unacceptable behavior. And by the way, Plan A does not preclude you telling your WW how hurtful and disrespectful you feel that her behavior is. Plan A does not preclude you telling her in a respectful and loving manner how disapproving you are and how hurtful it is to you to have a wife going out to drink and dance, acting like a single woman. Plan A does not demand that you provide financial support for her to do so.

Lastly you have to make her understand that if she continues to behave in this manner that there are limits to your patience and that her continued activity may be causing you to loose the love for her that you so treasure. And I would suspect that sooner rather then later, this means that you will have to go Plan B so that she will believe that you’re serious because as things are right now, she’s of the opinion that even being divorced would only mean more of the same and she likes her life just the way it is!

I mean how bad it for her in the role of the poor WW? You supply the money, her parents supply the home, baby sitting service and emotional support while she goes out to party, have fun and enjoy romantic relationships with all and any man she chooses to be with?

Look, you want to do something really smart? Call Steve Harley and ask him for help because as things are right now, you’re on a slow boat to know where.

Sorry to be so blunt.
Caoch

BDGD... how long have you been since NC and how has withdrawal been for you? I'm about four weeks NC and still struggling with withdrawal. I know these things all progress at their own pace, but it would be nice if I could stop having thoughts about the FOM. FWIW, H and I are in MC and doing okay, learning to communicate better. He says he has forgiven, but has also expressed doubts about his love for me, so I'm a little confused right now.

OK Ummm...Coach

You are a little overboard with the assessment of my WW running all over town drinking and dancing and hanging all over guys. However, I see the points that you are making. WW must come home so I can plan A effectively. I am on a slow boat to nowhere.

You talked about her not promising to NC. How do you think I should handle that? As of now, going to plan B is probably not the best option as I see it. Right now she claims that she can't even stand to be around me. I have no idea where this comes from, but I don't think plan B would help the sitch.

I'm all ears.

Coach,

Wanted you to know I have read your post over 3-4 times, just printed it out. You are right on many points. Time to take control of MY life.

Bear, I agree with Coach that your wife's parents are continuing to enable your W. BUT I think you might want to consider seeking legal advice regarding custody and access to your son (if you haven't already) before you help put such an ultimatum in order. Courts are inclined to keep the status quo when it comes to a child's custody so you should know your legal position in case your wife moves into her own place. Also, consider you may lose time to interact with your son if your wife moves out from her parents, she may start to use him as a pawn. As it stands right now, with friendly in-laws, you have the chance to see him.

I do think you and your wife made strides - she was honest with you about contacting him. To me, that shows she is not prepared to continue living a duplicitous life. I think her answer about not promising to C the OM in the future is as truthful as it comes. You let her be honest with you. And she sat next to you. It's little but it's something. You two are talking and you are both in counselling together. Continue to let her see what a good husband and father you are even through these trying, trying circumstances. She will notice.

Do you think she might be picking up on the fact that you are more afraid of losing your son than your marriage? I'm back for my husband, not just my children. Maybe you are just saying that in anger. Don't take too much of what she has to say about your relationship to heart. She is swinging through extremes, still trying to justify incomprehensible behaviour and emotions.

Hi Guilty, sorry it took so long to reply but I have three children (one an infant) and my time to write is limited. FYI, I have had no C with the OM for four and half months now. The first Cs were within two or three weeks of the OM and I separating (we moved in together for two weeks after DD - he decided to end it [yeah, I was jilted]).

Withdrawal has been brutal. My H used to call me "Spock" so you know I am a rational human being, who BTW, despises soap operas either on TV or in real life. What has unnerved me is the obsessive component to thinking about the OM. Death might be easier because at least there is finality and absolute unavailability. It has been so hard to check my e-mails, my letterbox, my phone without wishing and hoping. But slowly, over time, thinking about him and missing him turned to processing what happened and why and how. I have been reading and reading and reading to better understand the dynamics of affairs. You have to think about what happened to understand it so please don't let the obsessive thoughts scare you too much. You'll start to understand some of the contradictions in what the OM says and does, why he said those things, why you said them in return.

It's really hard living with a duality like this.

At first, every time my H and I argued, I would immediately want to C the OM. Then I had an unexpected job offer that tested my loyalties - put the fantasy of living with the OM first, or my family?

I realized that having to keep my missing the OM a secret (for fear of further hurting my H) was making the desire to contact him stronger rather than weaker. So I told my H about missing the OM. Yes, he was angry and hurt and couldn't understand why, but talking about "missing him" (which was in part a code for wanting to contact him) really helped to relieve the stress and the secrecy and it relieved the desire to renew contact. Dr. Harley talks about radical honesty. If I couldn't be honest with my H in this way, how could I be honest in other ways?

I don't know how to do a link here but the article "He'll be different with you, you're special" really helped me to understand why the OM said and acted certain ways and why I did too. Not all of it applied, but some stuck.

It's getting better slowly - there are reminders everywhere, right? Write to me if you need to work on it.

Guilty, I forgot to add that to help get over things I took up cycling, took up IC as well as MC, and made sure I planned to achieve one small thing a day. Despite that, I've cried more in the past half year than I have in a life time. Maybe those salt tears will help preserve my girlish looks!

My sister-in-law sent me something that said "Good men are the ones who don't make you cry" - which made me cry.

Evening update. WW stopped by here after work. Picked up son, stayed a little while. I was in good plan A mode. Upbeat, asked her how her day went, noted how it will be nice to be off for a week (she goes on vacation), asked her if she was hungry since I know she hadn't eaten and offered food I had made S & I for dinner. She said "no", but was sitting down eating ten min later. Both played with S, had the feeling she was comfortable.

Talked with FIL today. WW, S, FIL, & MIL are going out of town tomorrow for Thanksgiving to WW Grandmas out of state (BTW if Grandma finds out about this stuff, WW look out). FIL told me he was going to have plenty of time to talk w/her and that she had nowhere to hide (10 hr car ride). He is going to have THE talk with WW, about NC the whole nine yards. I told him about her fogtalk, he said that is a bunch of crap and WW is not going to "snow" him. Worried me that he said he is going to find out what she really wants. I asked if he would accept it if she said she wants out of M, he said NO. Agreed that it was time for her to move back home and that time at P's house was done. WW does not have financial means to get own place and will receive no assistance from family to do so. Personally, I think this is just the "excuse" she needs to come back home. My WW is stubborn, always has been, and I think sees this as battle of wills. No, serious.

As they left, she told me to have a good Thanksgiving and I told her the same. I won't see her for a week now. I have to work Fri & Sat (Uggh) so not able to make trip (Don't know if I would anyway, I think I would be welcomed if I could, but who knows.)

BDGD- BTW I agree with you about the honesty part. I was actually relieved that WW is telling me the truth and not denying NC. I thanked her for being honest and didn't blow up, though was a little hard about solution to NC issue. Told her I thought I should hold onto cell phone as that is the tool that she is using. WW got p!ssed, threw one of S's books at me and called me a jerk. I replied calmly that she thought I was a jerk for wanting to save our M? Asked her if she had another solution to this issue? None. Finally, told her to take phone, if she wanted contact she would just find another way and that there was no way I could control her life. She had to make her own decisions, just know what she is doing to me and family.

I know I will get a lot of plan B talk about this. I will do it, I just want to give this more time before going dark. More time to build myself up in plan A, too many LB's of late I believe to go dark now. Wait and see what influence of FIL will do when she finds out about exposure of broken NC. She doesn't know that he knows...yet. She is going to be peaved at me for that, but I am not going to keep her continued bad behavior a secret for her.

Bear, I agree with everyone else...you need to change something. She is cake eating.

If she won't come back home, then you have to go plan B.

After riding a 4 mo roller coaster from Hell, I see my WW differently. Although, she has been home with me, hugging at night for over a mo. I found out she had s with OM one week ago. She had been lying to me. After busting her, she now wants to end her A. Will she? Probably not.

But you know what, I don't know if I care anymore. For a couple of reasons.

1.I will never forget it. Maybe never stop thinking of her having s with OM. Can I live w/that. Also, knowing that she cares deeply for him. Can she get over that? Some say yes, but I'm not so sure. She may always look back at this and remember the good times; whereas, I'll look back and only see hurt and betrayal.

2. Probably one of the biggest reasons is, I began talking (just talking) to another woman. This gives me confidence and also lets me see a future w/o WW, which most BSs lack. I feel empowered and it feels great. I now understand how WS loose feelings for BS. After talking to this woman, who has a nice tone to her voice and talks to me like a friend, then talking to WW; WW voice now gets under my skin. I don’t hear friendliness or compassion; all I hear is someone who is controlling.

I think I am only in it for my boys now, and I hope we can recover from this for THEM.
And I will give them a chance if it comes. That is my responsibility as a father.

What I am trying to say is, really think about plan B. Fix yourself, meet people, get confidence about a life with out her, and make the decision yours.

Good Luck,
Steve

SN-- Your input is noted. Plan B is a part of my plan, just not to be executed at this moment. I have a time frame in mind when this will be executed depending on the circumstances in our R, i.e. her moving back home, treatment toward me, etc. I also feel I need more time to plan A a little more, and a little better.

Bear,
How would I handle the fact that she has decided the NC is no longer what she intends to do? I would test that relationship you have with her father and family and tell them that as things are right now, they can look forward to having their “juvenile” daughter living with them forever because you will no longer tolerate her blatant disrespect.

Then make arrangements for an intermediary to handle the issue of you getting to visit your son; that is pick up and delivery etc. and go right into plan B. See and attorney right away to get child support guidelines. Find out how much you’re expected to pay and then pay it and keep damn good records. Other then that, however, no financial support should be given to her. If she won’t allow you to effectively plan A then you have no choice. You simply must end the status quo some how.

Look, in the plan B letter you send explain that if she agrees to come home and to begin working on the marriage then that would be your preference otherwise explain that as things are, you simply can’t continue having any contact with her what so ever.

One last thought. I wouldn’t put to much stock in the nasty things she’s saying. I know it hurts to hear her say that she can’t stand the thought of your touch but you have to know that it’s all just fog babble. If her parents are serious about helping you put an end to this stupidity, then they will find a way to ship her back home where she belongs. Of course this sets up an entirely different set of problems but one thing at a time.

Anyway, that’s what I would do and do it right away, unless you really want to be smart and call Harley.

Coach

PS. So sorry that you’re spending Thanksgiving alone. If you live anywhere near Miami FL. E-mail me and come on over!

Thanks Coach.

I just talked to pops yesterday and posted it earlier. He is having the "get your butt home" talk with her over T-giving weekend. I started that ball rolling after reading your post to me. Called at told him we were going backwards and only chance to get moving in right direction is if she got her butt back home. He was going to have to tell her to get out.

If P's don't follow through, I am going to need to plan B. Great timing, just in time for holidays.