</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley,
Why did we divorce? I didn't want the divorce because I still loved (and still love) my husband, but he said he needed the divorce in order to have some control over his life and the situation. I put him through the wringer over the course of ten months by breaking the no contact rule several times. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can tell you that your husband thought that divorce was the only thing that would help his manhood and the total humiliation of an affair. That is why I wanted a divorce--- and now I feel that is not the best reason to have a divorce. However, when I looked at that option it was more like severe short-term pain versus pain for a lifetime. Perhaps some men never get over it. According to some books I have read some men walk away on D-day and never come back. I wanted to be one of those guys, but I found out I loved my wife way too much and I could not harm my children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ironically, at the time I felt like I had no control over my life as well. My behavior was completely irrational and out of character. Even though I still worked and performed as I always had...I even initiated going into business for myself, I cried for hours daily, had thoughts of suicide, hated myself, and yet I still obsessed over seeing the OM. I didn't even recognize myself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you are confirming that this thing we call fog is for real. To this day I am not sure how the fog affected my wife. The only thing that comes to mind was her desire to protect OM at all cost from my rage and the constant defense of the OM’s character.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My BS was at wit's end, and I do not blame him for divorcing me. We were never really in recovery because I kept breaking the NC rule.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told my wife a million tomes about NC and she broke that as well. As of now we are supposed to be NC. Last conversation was about 2-3 months ago and I suspect there is some residual withdrawal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my defense, my husband behaved wildly during this period as well which did not facilitate healing. He forced me to have sexual relations with him through means of ultimatums and physical force. He said hateful, demeaning things to me that I thought I deserved because of what I had done. In short we both continued to hurt each other after D-Day and despite some self-discoveries through counseling, we were never able to start healing together.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also wanted to have sex all the time-------- I still do! It is hard to describe, but I suspect is physiologic. This is not something that one decides. There is a very strong desire for sex----- but there is more. The event also triggers the same romantic responses of lust and romantic love. It is incredible to experience this with the same woman you have known for a lifetime. At the same time the WW is in withdrawal, fighting depression and taking ADs which blunt the sex drive. Not a good pairing. At a conscious level the BH cannot deal with the fact that the WW is dying to have SF 24/7 with OM and cannot give any to the H. That is not easy at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One major regret that I have is that I granted him a "quickie" divorce my going to Las Vegas. Within two weeks the papers were signed and it was over. I would never advise this to anyone. We were both in a highly emotional state at the time. In addition, I was being medicated for depression and although it helped somewhat, I was still in a haze and far from normal. No matter what the case, for emotional and financial considerations I believe divorce papers should never be signed any sooner than six months.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Any chance of reconciliation-------- you sound like a stable nice woman out of the fog. You are probably the woman he remembers and always wanted. Any chance?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I miss my husband, and I miss the life we had. We were married for 7 1/2 years, but I've known him for 15 years. We had a home, a life, a future, and we were trying to start a family. My family is completely disfunctional and so I was looking forward to building our own loving, stable family with positive traditions.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still think you will do great. Your are way too young to give up! OTOH, at my age (54) starting over is a much more difficult proposition. BTW, my wife also comes from a dysfunctional home where infidelity was rampant. Though out our entire marriage we always discussed how she had managed to create a different home for our children (and she did!). We also talked all the time (even while she was having the affair) how she had broken the mold in her family and she had not strayed. I think FOO is very hard to overcome---- God knows she tried hard to be different.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my situation, however, I regret it 100%. My husband and I loved each other, we made mistakes, and now I will always live with the consequences.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is what I wanted to avoid. Therefore, I see no divorce in my future unless my wife falls of the bandwagon.

Don’t give up! You are VERY YOUNG! Contact your exH. Tel him what you just posted. Go for it!

One more thing:

What about OM? Who was he? Why did you go for him? It is clear you love and loved your H.

<small>[ November 23, 2004, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

bump

Stan:

This may be an unfair question, but I almost get the feeling that you would do differently if you were younger and this happened to you. If you were 34 and NOT 54, would you still be married now? It is ok if you don't want to answer this.

It is a good question.

At 34 I certainly saw the world quite differently. The concept of infidelity was foreign to me. I know you are 35------- I can tell you with no hesitation that there is a difference between 34 and 54.

At 34 if I had been a single man I could have dated anyone I liked with minimal effort. It seems to me that opportunities with the opposite sex were abundant. At my age things are not the same and I simply could not get enthusiastic with women who are in my age group. I am quite healthy, athletic build, tall, and still have all my hair. However, at this time I simply do not want to enter the dating game. I loved my wife so much that I am more than willing to stay married and try to solve whatever issues we have. She is a great woman and a phenomenal wife. She has made me real happy for a LONG time.

This summer I was in LA visiting my son and we were sitting on a bench somewhere doing some girl watching (innocently). Out of the blue my son said: “Dad, if you were a single doc here in LA you could date anyone!” I said, “Son, I am too old”. Son said: “ I see older guys than you with young women all the time.” It is nice to know that, but how long would it last. In the end I would end up alone and feeling sorry for divorcing my wife. I really enjoy her as a woman and I want this to work. Granted I am doing this because she is highly cooperative and OM is history.

At 34 I might have gotten a divorce right away, as I don’t think I could have assimilated the event. When one gets older one learns to accept some of these things.

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

tobs,

I'm very sorry about your divorce and more so because you are a very remorseful WS. At the risk of trying to give you false hope I must say that there is one lady here who also was a WW who her BH divorced her and she still wanted to reconcile with him. Her user name is Hopeful_Person and she came to the MB forum 2 years ago, seeking advice on how to reconcile with her XH. She got plenty of advice from some of the wisest folks here [Just Learning, Pepperband, etc.] and 10 months ago, she and her H remarried. So as you can see, reconciliation IS possible but it takes a committment to do your best even if initially the odds may be against you. Perhaps you may want to consider reestablishing contact with your X in baby steps to allow each other time to get closer and closer.

TMCM

LEMONMAN- As you can see my husband's love is inmense for me!!! NOT!

He is staying with me, because at 54 he feels he is too old to start again.
When he was 34, we already had four of the five kids we have. He would had hurt them then? With no hesitation, because, he could still find another suitable wife?

And then he asks me if he is "second choice", when obviously I am HIS !!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> MYRTA

Oh my Myrta!

Gee whiz. If I were ever held this accountable for every casual speculation of what I would have done IF...

You can certainly be more fair to your hubby.

Myrta, men don't have to be good-looking or sweet or gentle or even good-natured to be a catch at 55. The just need money to have "sweet young things" throw themselves at their feet! And the older they get, the more valuable they become (shortage of men thing)!

Maybe there's a lot more that neither of you are revealing? Maybe there's some other healing to do?

I don't mean to be out of line.

Maybe Stan's just good at writing, I don't know, but he certainly seems sincere in this forum...

Lemon-Man:

My wife is right-------- at 34 I had four little kids and I was really into the young dad role. Retrospectively at that time I could not imagine life without living with my children. It is very likely that I would have also forgiven my wife Myrta.

I think you are asking if divorce is easier when one has other women readily available. Obviously for anyone (men and women) this is more feasible at age 34 than at 54. This has got to be a factor even if one refuses to admit it.

Lemon, at 35 with no kids you probably made the right decision.

However, lets say you are 35 with four kids and your wife wants to rebuild the marriage. OM is gone, no chance of contact. Would you stay married?

Regarding dating in the 50s: We will await the report of Cymanca when he starts dating again.

Myrta,

Let's not confuse the two issues re: second choice.

You, yourself..as a person were your Hs first choice..that is why he married you.

However, this situation..is so far removed from what any sane person would choose..that there is no number distant enough for me to convey to you how unpalatable it is.

Your H wonders if he is second choice for you, because, frankly..you replaced him in spirit and flesh..only when that had gone sour did you reinvest in your marriage. This no doubt leaves your H feeling pretty shabby about his relative value to you. Even as a bystander, it looks very convenient. It feels even worse.

You wonder if he would move on were he not over 50? Well..every person is different of course..but I am a far cry from 50 and find myself in the same predicament. My innocence is lost. It can not be recaptured. The part of me that loved openly and freely and with unselfconscious abandon..is broken beyond repair because of my Hs actions. It is broken with him or without him. My selection of choices is then rather slim, no?

If I ruled the world..my first choice would be that he did not commit adultery. Failing that, I would like to go back in time, choose a faithfull man and maintain my innocence, but since none of these are options..I choose to invest in the love that remains for him, and the life that we have built together and try with all of my might to bind myself once more to the only person who has ever made me his victim.

Let's be frank. This is not a good choice..but within the choices realistically available to me..this is my first choice.

Sound like fun?

Noodle

RESTARTING- I think I am being fair to my husband under our cirmcunstances. It is kind of hard to read that my husband that professes such "love" for me, says here that if he was 34, he would divorce me. At that age we had already invested a lot in our marriage and we had four small children. His choice then and now, if there is real love should be the same!

NOODLE--I know that my husband is feeling "shabby" like you say, but I am trying to rebuild what we had. I never replaced my husband with the OM, otherwise I would be his wife now. If I had known the extent of my actions, nothing would had happened. But many things pushed me into doing the forbidden.
I hate the fact that the innocence of our marriage is gone, but we had purity in our marriage for a very long time.
I had the choice to either stay with OM or my husband. My husband was my first choice thats why I stayed!!
There is always choices in life. I am sure you have choices too, but your choice is staying with your husband.
But if after making any choice a person is going to be lamenting or thinking of ifss, then, I think the person is not sure. It seems to me like my husband is not sure of choosing me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Thank you both!!

MYRTA

Originally posted by Stanley:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I loved my wife so much that I am more than willing to stay married and try to solve whatever issues we have. She is a great woman and a phenomenal wife. She has made me real happy for a LONG time.

In the end I would end up alone and feeling sorry for divorcing my wife. I really enjoy her as a woman
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">((((Myrta))))

Remember to look at the whole picture (not just the couple of phrases that stuck out to you)....Stanley loves you. Stanley wants to be with you. More of what he is saying in his post is with regards to himself ....not you, sweetie.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At 34 I certainly saw the world quite differently.

At 34 I might have gotten a divorce right away, as I don’t think I could have assimilated the event. When one gets older one learns to accept some of these things.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is not talking about you as second choice....rather, he is pointing out that the maturity, experience, and marital history have influenced his decision to stay. He seems to believe that had he not learned these qualities over the years, he might have chosen divorce, and then regretted it. Just look at it from a different direction.....from this perspective, it looks like he chooses you first - even over the seemingly "easier" option of divorce. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Myrta....just try to change your perspective a bit. Part of why you are having a difficult time seeing that Stanley can love you is because there is a part of you that doesn't love yourself. Most likely it was there before your A, but as most of us FWS's find out, the A does nothing but exacerbate that aspect.

You will have to work on forgiving yourself. You will have to work on loving yourself. It is an extremely difficult task (I still have trouble after about 18mo....)....but it has to be done. You can do it. Embrace yourself, and let Stanley embrace you as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> JMVHO

Myrta..you missed the point entirely, was it intentional?

1) Yes, you did replace him..OM had your Hs place in your mind and in your body. You eventually chose your H.

2) Nothing *pushed you* anywhere. You went willingly.

3) You will never have what you had.

4) Neither will H.

5) It isn't necessarily that your H isn't certain about his decision..it is more likely that he may be dissatisfied with the admittedly poor options available.

Does that help at all? Do you see the difference?

Noodle

L.I.T- Forgive myself? Will that every happen?
Maybe you are right, as people grow older they tend to change their perspective in life. I look at myself now and cannot believe the choices I made. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Sometimes I feel like telling my husband that I want to divorce him to release him of ME. I hate to see him suffer because of what I did.
I am scared that we are never going to fully recover from this!!

Myrta

NOODLE- I replaced my husband when I was in a foggy state of mind. With all my senses clear I would had never done that. Yes, I might have gone willingly but not knowinly. I really was not thinking at all, I let myself get engulf by words,letters,ego trips,etc,etc.
Trust me Noodle, if ANYONE would know the damage that one does by having affairs, everyone would be faithfull in the world. Is not as clear as black and white or night and day.
I had always!!! being a perfect wife for my husband, just because I strayed,derailed for 18 months out of the 30 we have been married. I think that should make me a pretty good choice!!

MYRTA

OK..last try

Imagine a line right down the middle of a page.

You can do this..you are already doing it with regard to choices you made while fogged out vs choices you make with a clear head.

On one side of the line..is you yourself.
H loves this person very much.

On the other side of the line is the situation.
H doesn't like that at all but can not find a better option.

Is it making sense now? Do not take personally what is not directed at your person, but rather at a situation you have created.

Noodle

Myrta,

Just like the "What if's" can play havok with the BS's mind, they can also wreak havok with the WS's mind. Example:

BS: "What if" I had been more tuned in, and noticed changes in your behavior before and at the start of the A....

WS: "What if" I had been more in tune with myself, and had not given into the temptation of the A....

BS: "What if" I had protected my M?

WS: "What if" I had approached my H in a more clear and consice manner, saying I was unhappy....

BS: "What if" you actually chose OM over me for a bit.....

WS: "What if" I am only his decision because he feels he's too old.....


Myrta - the point is you both need to focus on Now. There are a million "what ifs" you could both ask.....but in the end, they won't tell you any more than pure speculation.

It's time to quit focussing too much on your past,and instead, focus a little more effor into the future. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

NOODLE-- ok, ok, I will let it go and believe that my husband chose me! I was his choice, even though he did not liked the situation I created.
I know you had been hurt too Noodle, but let me assure you, its not very easy for us FWWs either.
Like I said before, if only people knew the extent of the hurt and damage, no one would cross that line!!

Thank you !!!

MYRTA

L.I.T- You are so right about that. My husband and I had been doing that so much.
What if.......
We are focusing way too much in those ifs. We are not putting the focus in the real important things between us. We can never completely relax, there is always something hanging between us. Will that ever pass? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Will this feeling of being the worst person in the world ever leave??

Thank you.

Myrta

Stanley,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Regarding dating in the 50s: We will await the report of Cymanca when he starts dating again </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just read this post and my fears as a 51 y/o going through an unwanted divorce, are one of finding a mate that will fulfill my needs. My portion of blame in my M is that I subjugated my needs to such an extent(Plan A) for 8 years, that I warped the balance of our R. I truly believe that because I was too Plan A, the A and the subsequent D were just postponed for years. If I had NOT been so comfortable within myself, I would have demanded changes that I tolerated from day one in our R. My WW was and is on a path of self destruction that would have engulfed ANY husband ( I firmly believe that my WW did not do what she did in response to anything that I did, she would have done it to any man that she happened to be married to).

My strength was also my most glaring weakness. My pathology was that I fell in love with a person that was not only hampered by her inability to be loved but also that my NEED for that love put false expectations on her that she was incapable of attaining. Hope that makes sense.

Am I looking forward to the dating scene at 51? No, I am most definitely not. IS THAT THE REASON I WANTED TO SAVE MY MARRIAGE, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

At 7 months and counting in Plan B, do I see a bleak outlook as I look at my dating possibilities? Again the answer is in the negative. I have had the fortune to be flattered on numerous occasions by being asked out by a wide range of women ranging in age from 22 through 60.

Like lemonman, I also will not date till I am divorced. Why? Because despite all my well meaning friends and family, I still have to look at that man shaving every morning knowing that while I wasn't error free in my M, I was SIN free.

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Cymanca ]</small>

Cymanca,

I really believe, that if you want to find someone to spend your life with..you will succeed.

The most important thing..is that perhaps you have a little more clarity as to what will aid a lifelong partnership and what will not....?

I too was too strong for the good of my marriage..strength can absolutely be a weakness, if misapplied.

I think the future is bright, perhaps not to the extent it would have been without the shadow of your marriages death..but bright all the same.

Especially if your future wife and you decide to have a family together [I thought I read somewhere that you would like to]..a connection at that level probably will dispell the majority of the leftover wishes and regrets.

Noodle

I I can really understand where Myrta is coming from and understand the feelings she has right now.
maybe because we are kind of in the same place right now. I mean there’s a bit of an age difference & I suppose it may mean more life experiences will provide different outlooks, but the experiences are similar in some ways.

I can so much relate to the feeling of no longer being good enough for my H, but also feel that after 18 years of M and the stresses and strains of a military spouse that it should count for something.
I have never failed him before in any way he keeps telling me so shouldn’t that help in some way???

Yes I feel like a piece of crap and there are times I want to crawl under a rock and stay there.
I feel I am totally unable to begin forgiving myself until Aussie can forgive me.
Then I feel even worse because I am making my recovery dependant on Aussies decisions and actions. You see its this horrible cycle of self destructive emotion and I want it to just go away.
But it wont. I know life does not work that way.

Like Myrta I feel that I want to go forward but my H is still suffering the discovery pain and still wants to know details over & over & over. And I know I must give him that, but being human I too get bloody sick of it. Of course right now for me all is in limbo as Aussie is in action in Iraq and I feel depressed that he will be in the same place he was when he left. Can’t blame him for it but it sucks.

As for divorce? ?????? Well we are both close to the 35 range, 37 & 38, and I think divorce was something Aussie deeply considered. But 18 years is 18 years and I guess he felt it would have been a waste to not try at least. However, I sometimes wonder how much he tried before he was deployed. Yes he made a great leap into the unknown and went to IC/MC with me for a while, but gave it up.
Maybe the problem is that FWW have one expectation and the BS has another.
Not sure there was anything to read into that or not as he was also getting his head around deployment and unit selections etc etc.
However he has made it clear a number of times, usually when he was pissed off at something, that ‘you broke it you fix it'.
I’m really not sure where that leaves me on this score & so I live on hope and I ignored the odd comment or two which cut like a knife.

But having divorced him and still loving him tobs, WHY not just sound him out by letter or email if you can't bring yourself to speak to him rght now. Just be honest, tell him you still love him & see if he is interested in even talking about a NEW relationship.

You will loose a few minutes of your time even if the ans is no.

My live on hope side says go for it and see. What do you have to loose?